 Random thoughts re the Matrix and SR4, Some considered thoughts |
 Mar 18 2005, 05:11 PM
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#1
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Shooting Target  Group: Members Posts: 1,978 Joined: 26-February 02 From: New Jersey, USA Member No.: 500  |
Yeah. I've been mulling this over for a few days, since SR4 and the New, GitS-style matrix was announced.
Mm. I'm not sure I like it. Not for the rules side. The Matrix rules suck. But I liked the story side of the traditional Matrix, where the Matrix didn't have to have any connection to reality, and could appear in any metaphor. It rocked. It was like an SR version of the Holodeck, letting me do all sorts of settings just by doing stuff in the Matrix. And now? The Grid is an "overlay on reality". Whaaa? |
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Mar 18 2005, 05:16 PM
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#2
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
you're, uh, making some pretty athletic leaps with your conclusions, there.
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Mar 18 2005, 05:34 PM
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#3
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,754 Joined: 9-July 04 From: Modesto, CA Member No.: 6,465 |
Ever watch a movie or try and do something that tries and mimic "real-life" and there is something off about the whole thing? You can't buy into it because there is a little something that isn't quite right. On the other hand, when you see something that doesn't try and mask the fact it's not-real, you can accept it more readily.
What I am driving at is, I never quite understood is why the Matrix had to be simsence. You add pre-programmed sensations to your "Matrix experience" and suddenly you become more in-tune with the Matrix? I suppose it opens up the doors to things like UV and Black systems, and does hold true things from certain novels, but I just think it would make believing the Matrix more difficult since you know what you are seeing isn't real. /ramble off. |
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Mar 18 2005, 06:28 PM
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#4
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,453 Joined: 17-September 04 From: St. Paul Member No.: 6,675 |
And no one is saying the matrix is gone, just that it was attacked. The inference I have made (and some others have too, I think) is that there will be both hackers and deckers with different bailiwicks.
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Mar 18 2005, 07:02 PM
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#5
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,754 Joined: 9-July 04 From: Modesto, CA Member No.: 6,465 |
Wow, so many folks took that "Hacker" comment way too serious. I'd firmly like to speculate that it's only a title for the same thing decking as been. It's marketing I tell you! Marketing! :cyber: |
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Mar 18 2005, 07:21 PM
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#6
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 398 Joined: 25-August 04 From: Denver, CO Member No.: 6,599 |
the way i imagine it is with 2 forms of access to the matrix:
the first is the traditional "plug-in and turn-off" style where you become dead to the world and are present in the 3-D matrix. this will be what the real hadeckers do to hadeck. the second form is a smaller-bandwidth, user-friendly approach. it would be like having a computer screen with real life set as your background. it would be wireless access to the matrix that is more like 2-D windows within your vision. so you could be surfing the web and watching TV in your living room at the same time. and whenever you didn't want to see the windows, you just minimize the matrix and you are back to just regular old, unobstructed vision. you would still have access to all the same information as someone who is plugged-in, you just wouldn't have the same speed and functionality...thus limiting your ability to effectively hadeck well. i think it sounds wiz myself - i wish i could do it right now IRL. |
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Mar 18 2005, 07:27 PM
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#7
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,754 Joined: 9-July 04 From: Modesto, CA Member No.: 6,465 |
That already exist in SR with Tortise Decks vs. Cyberdecks though.
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Mar 18 2005, 07:36 PM
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#8
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 398 Joined: 25-August 04 From: Denver, CO Member No.: 6,599 |
^ of course, this would be only if i got my way...which never happens :spin:
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Mar 18 2005, 07:33 PM
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#9
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 398 Joined: 25-August 04 From: Denver, CO Member No.: 6,599 |
a cyberterminal (tortise deck) is just a legal, slower version of a cyberdeck. but doesn't it still take you into the 3-D matrix that a deck does? |
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Mar 18 2005, 07:33 PM
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#10
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
tortise decks don't work that way. when you're using any cyberterminal, you're using full simsense immersion, even if it's just via goggles and gloves.
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Mar 18 2005, 07:55 PM
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#11
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Hacker For Hire Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 98 Joined: 15-March 05 From: Cyberia Member No.: 7,165 |
You're thinking 'trodes vs 'jacks
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Mar 18 2005, 07:58 PM
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#12
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
even trodes don't work that way, if you're using a cyberterminal. there is, currently, no such thing as partial submersion in the Matrix--you're either all the way in, or all the way out.
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Mar 18 2005, 07:59 PM
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#13
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 398 Joined: 25-August 04 From: Denver, CO Member No.: 6,599 |
right...you're not 'in' the matrix, but you are still "using full simsense immersion". i'm talking about only using like 25% immersion, where you can still carry-on daily activities while surfing. basically is see being able to have the cyberdeck render a more text based matrix (something like our internet today) 'over' your vision - like you could have your matrix 'window' open in the corner of your vision while you walk down the street, or you could bring it to full so that it covers your entire field of vision once you sit down somewhere. or you could have a wireless cyberterm. that is the size of your pocket secretary do the same thing. does that make sense? |
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Mar 18 2005, 08:00 PM
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#14
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 398 Joined: 25-August 04 From: Denver, CO Member No.: 6,599 |
right! and i'd like to see a scenerio where you could be partially in. |
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Mar 18 2005, 08:01 PM
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#15
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
indeed.
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Mar 18 2005, 08:01 PM
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#16
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Target Group: Members Posts: 39 Joined: 22-September 04 From: 9th Circle of Hell Member No.: 6,692 |
Some of this sounds very much like Steve Mann's work on wearable computers. Overlaying computer images/info over a view of reality. One of is philosophies is that in wearing a camera, he's taking back part of what he's lost in that the rest of the world spying on all of us with cameras. Wearcam Site Homepage (One of them) EyeTap Imaging Labs For those lacking Google-fu |
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Mar 18 2005, 08:11 PM
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#17
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 398 Joined: 25-August 04 From: Denver, CO Member No.: 6,599 |
ya, that's pretty cool - i'd love having UNIX with me all day! well, if i could connect to the 'net wirelessly everywhere...which right now is not possible...but in 2070... |
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Mar 18 2005, 08:19 PM
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#18
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Target Group: Members Posts: 7 Joined: 15-November 04 From: Cleveland, Ohio Member No.: 6,830 |
I think what this will be is anyone who is broadcasting as an active matrix persona will view the world as both normal and matrix, meaning if another online person approaches them they will beable to see each other and interact via matrix interaction. Of course this "active" pinging would open you up to danger from other sources, but would give you direct links to active sites where you would have normally jacked in would access it direct wireless. Another idea might be also that you could create a "ghost" icon that would be a digital matrix person that floats around in the real world similar to a mage in astral projection, leaving your meat body at home, but only being able to interact with other matrix and electronic sources. I dont know of course this is just a guess, something similar was done in the game Blue Planet with thier matrix system.
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Mar 18 2005, 09:25 PM
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#19
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,754 Joined: 9-July 04 From: Modesto, CA Member No.: 6,465 |
I can almost see it now: Two SR4 deckers meet face to face and begin and lock into battle each attempting to crash the other off the Matrix. At the climax, the losing decker reaches out and punches the would be victor square in the nose, a la "Indiana Jones: Raiders of the Lost Ark" style. LOL. :rotfl: |
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Mar 18 2005, 09:36 PM
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#20
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 398 Joined: 25-August 04 From: Denver, CO Member No.: 6,599 |
just to see if i understood... you could be walking around and "see" martix places/personas litterly overlaid ontop of real life? so then: you're sitting in a coffee house and you are seeing the surroundings of the coffee house, but your matrix persona is on shadowland and you are seeing shadowland's surroundings too(maybe as an translucient cover to the coffee house). so if someone approached you on shadowland, then you could choose to interact with them, and no one in the coffee house would know. i guess i see more oppertunity for PCs to try and abuse that - not that i don't think it's a good idea, i would just like to see it restricted...i.e. if you try to deck and do something somewhat complicated in the real world at the same time, then you have to roll against vertigo effects or something. really, anyway you look at it, wireless matrix access that occurs simultaniously with real life needs to be restricted...maybe say that in any one initiative pass you have to choose whether you're in the matrix or the real world. |
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Mar 18 2005, 09:57 PM
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#21
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Target Group: Members Posts: 39 Joined: 22-September 04 From: 9th Circle of Hell Member No.: 6,692 |
I'm thinking this concept would work well with some Snake Eyes and BattleTach. The team would be active in supplying intellegence on the immediate surroundings. The Decker could overlay the lay of the land, mark targets, and find points of weakness during the mission. He'd act as an onsite controller directing the Team to their objective. He can also use recognition software and the horsepower of his deck to ID things colllected in the data stream like a sniper that is hidden, cannot be seen easily, but a sensor sweep picks him up. Just think of the guys in the "van" in an Alias episode when a mission is on. The support in the van are supplying mission info, directions, and acting as mission controllers. He'd also do the hack when it became necessary to further the physical assets. Small Unit Tactics might be a useful skill to supply a pool or extra mission dice for the scene. |
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Mar 18 2005, 10:12 PM
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#22
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,754 Joined: 9-July 04 From: Modesto, CA Member No.: 6,465 |
Starting to sound more and more like the Decker/Rigger cross breed.
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Mar 18 2005, 10:07 PM
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#23
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,078 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 67 |
You're also assuming Shadowland has a place. Which it may or may not, I don't know, but keep in mind that when we usually see Shadowland in the game, it's as a source of information, not as a "space." For instance, imagine Dumpshock as Shadowland. Now, if you're in a coffee shop and you have your wireless laptop and you bring up Dumpshock and you reply to my post here, you're interacting with me...from the coffee shop! Now imagine Dumpshock as a space of information overlayed over your vision. Imagine if you were surfing Dumpshock with your eyes and posting through a subvocal speech-to-text translation. To take it a step farther, imagine you're in the coffeeshop with your wireless laptop and you open AIM or whatever and message me. And imagine I open a chat window with you, and I've got my webcam going and a microphone set up. You're chatting with me, from the coffeeshop, wireless, with voice and image. Now just take it a step farther and expand "voice and image" to a 3D icon representation. So instead of seeing me in your AIM window, you're seeing me standing next to you in the coffeeshop. Nifty, huh? 8) |
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| Guest_Crimsondude 2.0_* |
Mar 18 2005, 10:28 PM
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#24
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Guests |
You mean that isn't how it works? When I was working on a team of hardasses who had TacComps with the BattleTac Cyberlink and Snake-Eyes, a Rigger with all the BattleTac goodies and a Decker with BattleTac Matrixlink they were all communicating, to simplify it, telepathically. It's also how someone I know ran the Blues in the Arcology, with Deus having a SUT skill of 16. Everyone could sense where everyone was, what they were doing, what they were perceiving, and what their condition was. With a team leader with a sufficiently high SUT, they have Combat Pools in the high teens to low twenties, and almost cannot ever be surprised. Kind of like that?
Psst. Open up a Commlink and have your street sam buddie punch him in the back of the head just before you launch Black Hammer. |
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Mar 18 2005, 10:51 PM
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#25
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Target Group: Members Posts: 39 Joined: 22-September 04 From: 9th Circle of Hell Member No.: 6,692 |
I'm starting to wish I took the Blue Pill instead.....
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Mar 18 2005, 10:53 PM
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#26
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 398 Joined: 25-August 04 From: Denver, CO Member No.: 6,599 |
see, that sounds more like what i was talking about...running forums and instant messaging systems (or chatting with someone's persona), checking email, google searches for info...that kind of thing. that's all 'simple' stuff that could be done while you multitask with your regular vision. its the idea that we may be able to hack a full 3-D environment with locked data stores and other matrix objects around while we are still viewing the real world that sounds undesirable to me. |
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Mar 18 2005, 11:05 PM
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#27
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Beetle Eater Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 4,797 Joined: 3-June 02 From: Oblivion City Member No.: 2,826 |
I would bet on it working more like a rigger jumping into a drone or a mage going on an astral quest for that. But I picture a higher use of agents and frames, like commanding spirits or drone pilots, to do much of the crunch work. |
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Mar 18 2005, 11:04 PM
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#28
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 398 Joined: 25-August 04 From: Denver, CO Member No.: 6,599 |
i like that comparison: riggers and mages both have two ways of being outside of their body, each way demanding a varying level of concentration... ...with riggers you can command a bunch of drones or jump into one and control it. to jump into the one, you have to forsake the others. ...with mages you can astraly perceive and see the astral plane, or you can project and travel around in it. to be able to travel around in it, you have to forsake being in your body. ...now with deckers, you'll have accessing the matrix and hacking the matrix. to be able to full on hack it, you'll have to forsake contact with the real world. |
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Mar 18 2005, 11:11 PM
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#29
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Beetle Eater Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 4,797 Joined: 3-June 02 From: Oblivion City Member No.: 2,826 |
Except it should be far easier to pause the Matrix hack and deal with the real world while your persona performs a few Null Ops. And multiple feeds, like a rigger with an RC deck, so you can be browsing the Library of Congress and Arcanus Maximus Online while live shopping at the Enchanted Unicorn and still be hacking the Aztech host on the side.
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Mar 19 2005, 12:28 AM
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#30
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
I'm thinking that's exactly what it's going to be. Or at least I hope so anyway! |
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Mar 19 2005, 01:56 PM
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#31
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,453 Joined: 17-September 04 From: St. Paul Member No.: 6,675 |
One of the playtesters spilled his guts and basically admitted this in another thread. |
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Mar 19 2005, 03:03 PM
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#32
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
Yes I know. I read every single post on Dumpshock. I posted that before I read the post in question. Synner has since tried to use smoke and mirrors in order to downplay Audun's statement, but it's a pretty weak attempt. :D
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Mar 19 2005, 05:03 PM
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#33
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Decker on the Threshold Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,922 Joined: 14-March 04 Member No.: 6,156 |
Well it would probably be more limited in what you can accomplish, but why not? Back to the coffeshop. Joe Hacker walks in, sits down, wants toorder a cinamin honey double mocha fudge latte deluxe. Instead of waiting in line like a chump, or waiting for a waitress to notice him, he uses his live wireless Matrix link to do it. Glancing at the cash register (or maybe the overhead menu, or whatever), his wireless Matrixlink (complete with limited simsense rig, probably) reads the position of his eyes and brings up an interactive menu on his image link. Joe places the coffee order, which gets transmitted to the guy behind the counter instantly. Now, that's how *normal* Matrix 2.0 users would do it. Let's say Joe is a bit more amibitios, though, and wants to not actually *pay* for his coffee. So he loads up his Read/Write Utility, kept in hearwear memory, his pocsec, wherever, and hacks the menu system, changing his drink order to paid with a simple Computer test. Of course, Joe can't go hack the coffee shop's bank accounts and steal their assets or anything because there isn't a proper popup menu nearby to hack, but he can give himself a free drink just fine. Watch out for IC though; they can really f*ck you up, and you can only get away by physically running out of the wireless's signal's range. :D *That's* how I see the new non-comatose Matrix system working. :) Of course all of this is my opinion, and shouldn't be interpreted as anything like how it will really work; I'm so not-connected with Fanpro... :( |
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Mar 19 2005, 05:18 PM
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#34
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,133 Joined: 3-October 04 Member No.: 6,722 |
Cybergeneration and Virtuality all over again
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Mar 19 2005, 05:59 PM
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#35
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 118 Joined: 20-June 04 Member No.: 6,423 |
I had the same thoughts, but I think the Virtuality was a concept that was ahead of it's time to be understood. It's getting more and more talk recently as a viable concept (The game developers' conference, State of Play II, recently has been talking about the augemented world and the collapse of the division between the real world and the virtual world). I think the big problem with Virtuality was that it was too heavily based around holographic projections of the virtual onto the real world. This new Matrix and the hacker seem more in common with GITS:SAC and the Laughing Man, where cyberbrains are as common as cellphones (applies more to Japan than here) that someone could engineer an exploit that would allow him to commit crimes in public and in broad daylight and no one could positively ID him because his face was obscured by a logo in their heads. |
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Mar 19 2005, 06:10 PM
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#36
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 398 Joined: 25-August 04 From: Denver, CO Member No.: 6,599 |
yes - that is exactly how i would want it to run as well - even if the decker is very skilled, i would want him to have only limited hacking access to any place on the matrix when connected wirelessly - that only makes sense. good write-up |
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Mar 19 2005, 06:15 PM
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#37
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 398 Joined: 25-August 04 From: Denver, CO Member No.: 6,599 |
and i would imagine that in any big metroplex, you'd have wireless all over the place. that would certinally make our deckers think twice about what they're attempting...is it worth all the trouble you'd face? the only way out of that one, since you are tied to the physical world and wouldn't be able to out maneuver the IC, is to dump yourself out. ouch. |
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Mar 19 2005, 06:20 PM
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#38
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Decker on the Threshold Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,922 Joined: 14-March 04 Member No.: 6,156 |
Or just go off the grid. I can see aluminum hats becoming all the rage in 2070. :D
"Everything's out to get me." |
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Mar 19 2005, 06:34 PM
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#39
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,010 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
You're assuming they were particularly separate to begin with. ~J "Konekuto Waiado" |
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Mar 19 2005, 06:47 PM
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#40
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Ain Soph Aur Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,477 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Montreal, Canada Member No.: 600 |
I was reading SOTA 64 last night and I came on the section talking about Link Clubs, where in the club you could put on this display unit that would overlab your normal vision with a wireless Matrix feed. It would allow you to see other club-goer's personnal informaiton (likes, dislikes, biography, etc) as well as tag notes onto people that only your friends can share, etc.
Anyway, sounded A LOT like what they're going for with the new matrix, nuh? |
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Mar 19 2005, 06:59 PM
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#41
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 118 Joined: 20-June 04 Member No.: 6,423 |
Don't you know, aluminum's out. Velostat is all the rage. |
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Mar 19 2005, 06:54 PM
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#42
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,314 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Lisbon, Cidade do Pecado Member No.: 185 |
Jrayjoker - I suggest you go back and read the post, particularly the point where Audun mentions that he has no involvement with SR4. Believe what you will, but please no name calling when you're disappointed (or not as the case may be). Fortune - :P |
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Mar 19 2005, 08:43 PM
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#43
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
Still weak, but better than the last attempt. ;) :grinbig:
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Mar 19 2005, 10:14 PM
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#44
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Decker on the Threshold Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,922 Joined: 14-March 04 Member No.: 6,156 |
Something tells me Audun is going to be having an "industrial accident" soon before he starts hemorrhaging more information. :D Not like anything he said was particularly important, though; what'd interest me is some of the mechanical changes. How many more things are Success Tests now, and not "Other"-types of tests? Or some metaplot stuff: is Calfree still getting gang-raped by the rest of the Pacific Rim? :P
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Mar 19 2005, 10:41 PM
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#45
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,978 Joined: 26-February 02 From: New Jersey, USA Member No.: 500 |
Of course. It's CalFree, and everyone is getting revenge for Gigli 5.
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