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Bull
post Aug 22 2005, 03:12 AM
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Feel free to ask questions, I and the others familiar with SR4 will try and answer questions when we can, and try to keep the thread on topic. :)
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the_dunner
post Aug 22 2005, 03:15 AM
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Crap, Bull, you get home from GenCon, and you don't have anything better to do than...

oh wait. :P
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Bandwidthoracle
post Aug 22 2005, 03:43 AM
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Ok, here's a question:

How much of SR3 Matrix made it into the BBB?
Specifically IC (I'd love to know more about IC), Agents, Serches, and Security Sheves?
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Bull
post Aug 22 2005, 04:11 AM
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QUOTE (Bandwidthoracle)
Ok, here's a question:

How much of SR3 Matrix made it into the BBB?
Specifically IC (I'd love to know more about IC), Agents, Serches, and Security Sheves?

The concept and how the matrix and Hosts work is a good deal different, and the mechanics are vastly different, but IC and Agents are still around. I'm assuming you mean "Searches", as in searching for information, and that is still there. The Security Sheave is now gone, however.
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Bandwidthoracle
post Aug 22 2005, 04:44 AM
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Yeah, Searches work better than Serches.
If there is no Security Sheave, how does IC work?
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Bull
post Aug 22 2005, 04:48 AM
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QUOTE (Bandwidthoracle)
Yeah, Searches work better than Serches.
If there is no Security Sheave, how does IC work?

Similar to how it worked pre-VR2.0. Basically, if you fail to proparly sneak into a host, or you alert the host through your actions (Like destroying things), there are several responses the host can make. One of them is to have IC on hand to attack the intruder. It's more freeform now, and this sort of thing is basically at the GM's disctrection (Though there is a random d6 chart of responses in the book for lazy GMs :)).

Other possible actions include calling in a security hacker, attempting to terminate the hacker's connection, or shutting down the system altogether.

Bull
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Bandwidthoracle
post Aug 22 2005, 04:53 AM
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So...I may be reading this wrong, but is it all or nothing?
IE I can't have a trace launch at one response and a killer the next (To use SR3 IC)
Instead hacker fails role, host's security system sends in the IC

...I guess a better way to ask is are there more or less or the same number of IC on any given server?
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Bull
post Aug 22 2005, 05:11 AM
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I think it's GMs call. The new rules are pretty loose and designed to give both the player and GM more freedom, and to run a lot faster. One of the biggest design elements of a lot of the rules seems to have been to remove excess bookkeeping.

So a Host could have multiple pieces of IC. Maybe it all attacks the first time you misstep. Maybe each time it loads a new copy of the IC. You could still set up a security sheave of sorts with a prearranged list of events that happen each time the Hacker sets off an alert.

But as it stands, there's no hard and fast rules. Other than if the system shuts down, it won;t activate any additional IC ;)

Bull
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mfb
post Aug 22 2005, 06:49 AM
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the interesting thing is, IC is always loaded onto frames. and frames can be hacked. it's a little too easy, in my opinion, to jack IC frames, but meh. it's neat.
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hobgoblin
post Aug 22 2005, 09:55 AM
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so basicly one can turn the hosts own defences against any security present?

if so then i take it there is no real need to pack combat softs when your a technomancer :P

hmm, i belive i spotted a comment about being able to load IC onto any device that have a wireless connection now. i take it one can then defend ones wireless smartlink with a black ice if one can get hold of it?

and can you give us a quick rundown on how rigging works now?

and how will electronic warfare impact say the effectivnes of wireless smartlinks?

and i must say i kinda like the idea of more freeform responses in hosts. one day you crack your local news agent you may just be faced with some trace and an attempt to kill the connection (nice that the host can do this now, means that a mom&pop site dont need to load up on heavy ice any more) while the next time it may hit you with gray or worse from the word go :cyber:

it allso removes the trouble of a script kiddie jacking in and crewing up and then a wage slave jacks in and gets blown away by allready active ice :P

i would allso like to hear about any diffs between AR cracking and VR cracking, whats the pros and cons of either?

and can the hacker change mode on the fly?
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blakkie
post Aug 22 2005, 11:44 AM
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QUOTE (hobgoblin @ Aug 22 2005, 03:55 AM)
hmm, i belive i spotted a comment about being able to load IC onto any device that have a wireless connection now. i take it one can then defend ones wireless smartlink with a black ice if one can get hold of it?

This has to be at least Restricted if not Illegal, legality of the weapon aside.

What are the mechanics for The Man casually/actively spotting gear with Black Ice on it? Keeping in mind that there are lots an lots of devices walking around for causual checking.

QUOTE
i would allso like to hear about any diffs between AR cracking and VR cracking, whats the pros and cons of either?


The main question i have about that is the state of the meat body during VR? Limp noodle?
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mfb
post Aug 22 2005, 12:28 PM
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VR works pretty much like it did in SR3, except you can open a link to a new node without leaving the one you're at--basically, you can split your icon between multiple locations.

you probably couldn't load your smartlink with IC, for the same reasons you couldn't load a security camera with IC--it's not designed to run programs like that. but you could (and should) run IC on the commlink your smartlink connects to, and you could databomb or encrypt the connection to your smartlink.
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blakkie
post Aug 22 2005, 12:35 PM
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QUOTE (mfb @ Aug 22 2005, 06:28 AM)
VR works pretty much like it did in SR3, except you can open a link to a new node without leaving the one you're at--basically, you can split your icon between multiple locations.

you probably couldn't load your smartlink with IC, for the same reasons you couldn't load a security camera with IC--it's not designed to run programs like that. but you could (and should) run IC on the commlink your smartlink connects to, and you could databomb or encrypt the connection to your smartlink.

So a decker/techno has to go through my commlink (breaking into it as a 'host' first) to access my firearm's controls? Or is it that my commlink automatically attacks any attempt to directly connect to the firearm?
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hahnsoo
post Aug 22 2005, 12:55 PM
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QUOTE (blakkie)
So a decker/techno has to go through my commlink (breaking into it as a 'host' first) to access my firearm's controls? Or is it that my commlink automatically attacks any attempt to directly connect to the firearm?

In game mechanics, anyone who wants to access your devices must be able to access your commlink first. p212 This assumes that you have your network set up in such a way that you have your commlink as your main wireless access point for your PAN.
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blakkie
post Aug 22 2005, 01:01 PM
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QUOTE (hahnsoo @ Aug 22 2005, 06:55 AM)
QUOTE (blakkie @ Aug 22 2005, 07:35 AM)
So a decker/techno has to go through my commlink (breaking into it as a 'host' first) to access my firearm's controls?  Or is it that my commlink automatically attacks any attempt to directly connect to the firearm?

In game mechanics, anyone who wants to access your devices must be able to access your commlink first. p212 This assumes that you have your network set up in such a way that you have your commlink as your main wireless access point for your PAN.

Ah, so the connections between devices and the PAN's controller (normally the commlink) are considered imprenerable to man-in-the-middle attacks? EDIT: At least going towards the device. Can you spoof a device to the commlink, or is it secure that way too?

So we can assume the same for building security? You can't actually directly jump into a security camera. Instead you have to go through the building host, just like an SR3 overwatch operation? Only now you can do it while walking around in the building?
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hahnsoo
post Aug 22 2005, 01:06 PM
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QUOTE (blakkie @ Aug 22 2005, 08:01 AM)
Ah, so the connections between devices and the PAN's controller (normally the commlink) are considered imprenerable to man-in-the-middle attacks?

So we can assume the same for building security? You can't actually directly jump into a security camera. Instead you have to go through the building host, just like an SR3 overwatch operation? Only now you can do it while walking around in the building?

While I wouldn't say impenetrable, it would be difficult to do a Hacker attack on an item that doesn't even have stats associated with it. :-P It's simply easier to do PAN attacks using the Commlink route, from a GM's perspective, I guess. Besides which, the flux on most PAN wireless devices is so low that you would have to be within 2 meters of a target, which might get uncomfortable. I'd say that if it has stats, you can hack it.

Security for non-PAN devices is different. You hack into them either through a central node or through the device's node itself.
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blakkie
post Aug 22 2005, 01:10 PM
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QUOTE (hahnsoo @ Aug 22 2005, 07:06 AM)
QUOTE (blakkie @ Aug 22 2005, 08:01 AM)
Ah, so the connections between devices and the PAN's controller (normally the commlink) are considered imprenerable to man-in-the-middle attacks?

So we can assume the same for building security? You can't actually directly jump into a security camera. Instead you have to go through the building host, just like an SR3 overwatch operation? Only now you can do it while walking around in the building?

While I wouldn't say impenetrable, it would be difficult to do a Hacker attack on an item that doesn't even have stats associated with it. :-P It's simply easier to do PAN attacks using the Commlink route, from a GM's perspective, I guess. Besides which, the flux on most PAN wireless devices is so low that you would have to be within 2 meters of a target, which might get uncomfortable. I'd say that if it has stats, you can hack it.

Security for non-PAN devices is different. You hack into them either through a central node or through the device's node itself.

Ah, ok. So i can't fire my weapon from across the room?

What does it take to change which PAN a weapon is on? Say i am grappling with someone, so i'm will within the 2m range. Or does it have to go outside the PAN range (get dropped) and then any PAN can hook up to it?

Also, i assume that if a device has stats that it can have Ice local to it?
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hobgoblin
post Aug 22 2005, 01:16 PM
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like someone pointed out before on a older thread; being within range to hack a device isnt a problem, just get a bigger antenna...

but this isnt the place to take the rules apart, the forum is allready full of threads doing that :P

hmm, i like the sound of being able to split ones icon. this allow the system to be more similar to present day in that you can be sitting on x number of chat hosts and so on.
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hahnsoo
post Aug 22 2005, 01:18 PM
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QUOTE
Ah, ok.  So i can't fire my weapon from across the room?
You can, if the device was upgraded to have a stronger signal, I guess. Seems kinda pointless unless it's a Smart sentry gun.
QUOTE
What does it take to change which PAN a weapon is on? Say i am grappling with someone, so i'm will within the 2m range. Or does it have to go outside the PAN range (get dropped) and then any PAN can hook up to it?

Also, i assume that if a device has stats that it can have Ice local to it?
First of all, how the heck are you going to hack while you are grappling? You have to have all of your concentration devoted to hacking his gear, and grappling definitely isn't one of those situations. 2m is just a ballpark figure, I think the max effective range of a Signal 0 device is 3m. It definitely requires much more than simply "getting into range" and doing a Complex Action to steal the gun (assuming that it's smartlinked to begin with). I think brute force hacking (or hacking on the fly) is a Hacking + Exploit (Firewall rating, 1 Initiative Pass) Extended test for the access (which, depending on the Firewall, might delay you for a bit), then you have to engage in an appropriate action (depending on what you want to do), with the risk of triggering an alert both on the above Extended test and the Hacking actions. An alert can scramble a VR security Decker (if you are hacking into a sec guard's item), patrolling VR IC on a node nearby, Terminate all connections (locking everyone out of the item) or shutdown (rebooting the item). Still, I wouldn't make any speculations about the Hacking system until you get a copy of the book and can slog through it, and then playtest it multiple times (I'm still in the process of doing so in my group).
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blakkie
post Aug 22 2005, 01:27 PM
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QUOTE (hahnsoo @ Aug 22 2005, 07:18 AM)
You have to have all of your concentration devoted to hacking his gear, and grappling definitely isn't one of those situations.

You can't take penalties for two simultaneous actions? I thought there weren't any exclusive actions anymore? As long as you can do this while in AR mode (since VR mode doesn't allow meat body control) and have the $k!llz to work past the penalty.

If you have to go VR then ammend my example to be in a Decker Bag™ strapped on the back of a Troll that is **grabbling the opponent. ;)

P.S. You do still fall over if standing when you go into VR mode, right?

**EDIT: Grabbling - (verb) similar to grappling, but done with the grace of a virgin juniorhigh school boy trying to unhook a bra for the first time
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hobgoblin
post Aug 22 2005, 01:40 PM
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i still wonder if one can jam the connection between the smartlink and the gun using electronic warfare and if so what kind of effects that will have :P

hmm, can one hack say a persons display contacts of cybereyes so that they see false images or nothing at all?
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hahnsoo
post Aug 22 2005, 01:43 PM
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QUOTE (blakkie @ Aug 22 2005, 08:27 AM)
You can't take penalties for two simultaneous actions? I thought there weren't any exclusive actions anymore? As long as you can do this while in AR mode (since VR mode doesn't allow meat body control) and have the $k!llz to work past the penalty.

If you have to go VR then ammend my example to be in a Decker Bag™ strapped on the back of a Troll that is grappling the opponent. ;)

P.S. You do still fall over if standing when you go into VR mode, right?

EDIT: Grabbling - (verb) similar to grappling, but done with the grace of a virgin juniorhigh school boy trying to unhook a bra for the first time

If you are using Augmented Reality, you will have to be able to manipulate AR somehow. I'm not sure if having "just" a cybernetic commlink would be sufficient for this, as you have to be able to manipulate the AR symbols and such. As it stands, to grapple an opponent, you would need to use a Complex Action each action phase, thus limiting your ability to do anything else. Likewise, most Hacking actions are either Simple Actions or Complex Actions. Just like you can't grapple someone AND cast a spell unless it's happens to be a touch-based attack spell of some sort.

Going "VR" is just like jacking into an old-time Cyberdeck and the old Matrix.
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blakkie
post Aug 22 2005, 01:48 PM
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-----double post-----
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blakkie
post Aug 22 2005, 01:49 PM
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So no simultaneous complex actions at a penalty?

EDIT: Except simultaneous casting? What about simultaneous conjuring and casting?
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hahnsoo
post Aug 22 2005, 01:49 PM
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QUOTE (blakkie)
So no simultaneous complex actions at a penalty?

EDIT: Except simultaneous casting? What about conjuring and casting?

It's just like SR3. In other words, no.
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blakkie
post Aug 22 2005, 01:59 PM
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QUOTE (hahnsoo @ Aug 22 2005, 07:49 AM)
QUOTE (blakkie @ Aug 22 2005, 08:49 AM)
So no simultaneous complex actions at a penalty?

EDIT: Except simultaneous casting? What about conjuring and casting?

It's just like SR3. In other words, no.

So the reports of the death of the exclusive action are highly exagerated. There just aren't any exclusive action spells.
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Bandwidthoracle
post Aug 22 2005, 02:16 PM
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I'm out of the loop, what's a PAN...other than that thing you cook stuff in?
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hahnsoo
post Aug 22 2005, 02:19 PM
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QUOTE (blakkie @ Aug 22 2005, 08:59 AM)
So the reports of the death of the exclusive action are highly exagerated.  There just aren't any exclusive action spells.

There was never a time when you could do a Complex Action and simultaneously do another different Complex Action. You couldn't fire a gun fully auto and then cast a spell at a penalty, or use Athletics to increase your running speed while shooting. There are no Exclusive Actions, under the definition given by SR3, but that definition only really fit a handful of things, all of them magical.

Under SR3:
QUOTE
EXCLUSIVE ACTIONS
Some acts of magic are considered Exclusive. These feats require great concentration and cannot be performed while using any other magical skill or maintaining any other magical ability. For example, a magician cannot cast an Exclusive spell while sustaining an existing spell. The magician must stop sustaining the other spell first. Maintaining spell defense over others is also not possible while engaging in an Exclusive activity, which means that certain activities may leave your friends vulnerable. Specific Exclusive Actions are described throughout this chapter and are summarized on the Exclusive Actions Table.
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hahnsoo
post Aug 22 2005, 02:20 PM
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QUOTE (Bandwidthoracle)
I'm out of the loop, what's a PAN...other than that thing you cook stuff in?

Personal Area Network, the wireless and wired connections that connect all of a single person's devices, usually with a Commlink as the hub.
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Demonseed Elite
post Aug 22 2005, 02:21 PM
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QUOTE
I'm out of the loop, what's a PAN...other than that thing you cook stuff in?


Personal Area Network. The small virtual universe of wireless devices on you all talking to each other. Plus the commlink router that lets you connect your PAN to other hosts (whether PANs or bigger hosts) out in the Matrix.
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Bandwidthoracle
post Aug 22 2005, 02:23 PM
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QUOTE (Demonseed Elite)
QUOTE
I'm out of the loop, what's a PAN...other than that thing you cook stuff in?


Personal Area Network. The small virtual universe of wireless devices on you all talking to each other. Plus the commlink router that lets you connect your PAN to other hosts (whether PANs or bigger hosts) out in the Matrix.

Are these mandatory as part of your ID? (As seems to be hinted by the comlink in the ID section of the book)?
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blakkie
post Aug 22 2005, 02:25 PM
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--- wrong thread ----
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hahnsoo
post Aug 22 2005, 02:26 PM
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QUOTE (Bandwidthoracle)
Are these mandatory as part of your ID? (As seems to be hinted by the comlink in the ID section of the book)?

If you have an active Commlink, you have a PAN, albeit with a single member (population: 1 Commlink). I guess technically it isn't really a network without at least one device attached to your Commlink, but you get the idea. It's simply all of the devices on your body that have been linked together, that's it. It's an easy way to designate a unit in the WiFi version of the Matrix, so you don't have to say "My smartlink wired to my Commlink going through the NeoNET node, blah blah blah". You just say "My PAN is connecting and heading to Shadowland".
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hobgoblin
post Aug 22 2005, 03:25 PM
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heh, that pan give extended meaning to personal space. now you can physicaly detect it :P
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Rotbart van Dain...
post Aug 22 2005, 04:10 PM
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Which raises the question of upgrading... what is the range of essence costs for accessories of implanted commlinks?
What kind of accessories exist - and what are they good for?
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hahnsoo
post Aug 22 2005, 04:25 PM
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QUOTE (Rotbart van Dainig)
Which raises the question of upgrading... what is the range of essence costs for accessories of implanted commlinks?
What kind of accessories exist?

Commlinks are 0.2 essence or they take up 2 capacity units in a cyberlimb.
Sim Modules are 0.2 essence or they take up 2 capacity units in a cyberlimb.
Datajacks are 0.1 essence or they take up 1 capacity unit in a cyberlimb.
Simrigs are 0.5 essence.

All of these are available in non-cyber versions, and cybered/non-cybered versions can be linked together either wirelessly or other connections.

There are other non-cyber accessories, like AR gloves, Biometric Readers, Nanopaste/regular trodes, printers, satellite links, subvocal mics, etc.
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Spookymonster
post Aug 22 2005, 04:27 PM
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Do chipjacks still exist? If so, multislot or not? Ditto for the Skillsoft jukebox?
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hobgoblin
post Aug 22 2005, 04:30 PM
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most likely a common comlink can work as a skillsoft jukebox, kinda like how you could load a skillsofts into headware memory. only that now your carrying your "head mem" in your pocket :P
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hahnsoo
post Aug 22 2005, 04:34 PM
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QUOTE (hobgoblin)
most likely a common comlink can work as a skillsoft jukebox, kinda like how you could load a skillsofts into headware memory. only that now your carrying your "head mem" in your pocket :P

You need a Sim Module or datajack to use Knowsofts or Linguasoft. Activesofts require a skillwire system.
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Spookymonster
post Aug 22 2005, 04:37 PM
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Good point. With wireless connectivity and practically unlimited storage available, jukeboxes seem fairly obsolete.

However, the biggest selling point for chipjacks was their smaller Essence hit. Since the Datajack is now down to .1 Essence as well, single-slot chipjacks would seem pointless. Multislot chipjacks might still serve a purpose (assuming you even need a chipjack for your Commlink to talk to your Skillwires...hmmmm....).

[edit]
Oops... nevermind.
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blakkie
post Aug 22 2005, 04:39 PM
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From below, Copied/Pasted/Cleaned Up.....

Question: Are there separate OS [off-the-shelf] options for a given commlink, or is the commlink/OS a package deal? Can you get after-market and/or home-rolled OSes for those that feel they absolutely, positively must be a slave to the bleeding edge?

Answer: Commlinks and OSes are purchased separately. There aren't any rules for home-brewed programming, although there are rules for pirating software.

Question: Did the Commlink Customization section at the end of the Matrix chapter get cut for now?

Answer: No, those rules are in there, p.240. They're basic, but they're absolutely functional. Just, uh, it may be 2085 before your hacker finishes recoding his rating 6 OS.
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hobgoblin
post Aug 22 2005, 04:40 PM
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QUOTE (hahnsoo)
QUOTE (hobgoblin @ Aug 22 2005, 11:30 AM)
most likely a common comlink can work as a skillsoft jukebox, kinda like how you could load a skillsofts into headware memory. only that now your carrying your "head mem" in your pocket :P

You need a Sim Module or datajack to use Knowsofts or Linguasoft. Activesofts require a skillwire system.

hey, this made things very interesting in europe. no more trouble with the diffrent languages. just get a comlink with a sim module and make sure you can access a whole lot of linguasofts :P

very nice, very nice indeed ;)

it will be fun to hack some friends comlink while he is trying to charm that elf lady at dantes, making sure to replace his copy of sperethiel with one designed by the swedish chef :rotfl:
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Spookymonster
post Aug 22 2005, 04:40 PM
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So if you want to slot 2 Activesofts, do you need 2 datajacks, or do you plug the 2 'softs into your commlink and then wire it into a single datajack? Do you even need to hardwire a commlink into a datajack?
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maeel
post Aug 22 2005, 07:02 PM
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another thing ,i'd like to know, is, will it be possible to rig a vehicle with trodes?

what about the maximum fire rates, in SR3 HV-wapons made miniguns obsolete, that still so in SR4.
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hobgoblin
post Aug 22 2005, 08:01 PM
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the maximum fire rate question belongs in the combat&gear thread i think...
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maeel
post Aug 22 2005, 08:02 PM
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i know, but i was too lazy :D
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reconsweden
post Aug 22 2005, 10:15 PM
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QUOTE (hobgoblin)
it will be fun to hack some friends comlink while he is trying to charm that elf lady at dantes, making sure to replace his copy of sperethiel with one designed by the swedish chef :rotfl:

Google the swedish chef understands <-------------Link

Sorry, couldn´t resist =)
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hahnsoo
post Aug 22 2005, 10:37 PM
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QUOTE (Spookymonster)
So if you want to slot 2 Activesofts, do you need 2 datajacks, or do you plug the 2 'softs into your commlink and then wire it into a single datajack? Do you even need to hardwire a commlink into a datajack?

You just need a way to get the Skillsoft to your Skillwires, which would mean either a Datajack or a Commlink or some other method. Hardwiring a datajack to a commlink could be useful if you intend to do some work with your datajack that needs to share information with data stored in your commlink. Otherwise, you wouldn't be able to access your commlink information through a datajack transfer. *shrugs* I'll admit, it's not too terribly useful but it's a consideration.
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Spookymonster
post Aug 22 2005, 11:59 PM
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QUOTE (hahnsoo @ Aug 22 2005, 06:37 PM)
QUOTE (Spookymonster @ Aug 22 2005, 11:40 AM)
So if you want to slot 2 Activesofts, do you need 2 datajacks, or do you plug the 2 'softs into your commlink and then wire it into a single datajack? Do you even need to hardwire a commlink into a datajack?

You just need a way to get the Skillsoft to your Skillwires, which would mean either a Datajack or a Commlink or some other method. Hardwiring a datajack to a commlink could be useful if you intend to do some work with your datajack that needs to share information with data stored in your commlink. Otherwise, you wouldn't be able to access your commlink information through a datajack transfer. *shrugs* I'll admit, it's not too terribly useful but it's a consideration.

So... I download the skillsofts to my commlink, then my commlink loads them into my skillwires directly - no datajack or physical connections required. Is that about right?

Also, is there any mention of used cyberware?
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Bandwidthoracle
post Aug 23 2005, 12:10 AM
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Do Techomancers get brain IC, or is their PAN unhackable, or some third thing I haven't thought of? (Techomancer IC would be scary)
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Nikoli
post Aug 23 2005, 12:19 AM
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What do Technomancers use for data storage if they need no devices or cyber?
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hahnsoo
post Aug 23 2005, 12:23 AM
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QUOTE (Nikoli)
What do Technomancers use for data storage if they need no devices or cyber?

Store it online somewhere. Instead of downloading into headware, they transfer it to their "website" or a "Resonance Realm/Well" or whatever. :)
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Nikoli
post Aug 23 2005, 12:24 AM
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That official or arse-ware?
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SL James
post Aug 23 2005, 12:27 AM
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Yeah. I thought I read something about using a commlink for storage memory.
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Nikoli
post Aug 23 2005, 12:31 AM
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Okay. Always thought that was a weakness of Otaku in SR3, no cash for real storage solutions out of th box. A computer ops specialist with no storage is useless to the Johnson in most cases.
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hermit
post Aug 23 2005, 10:36 AM
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Hmmm. Now, to the other character type to be covered in this thread: Riggers.

Q: A rigger is supposed to be better than an average joe with a datajack (or, I guess, a commlink) at driving a vehicle. In SR1 through 3, this was made possible by using a piece of cyber that essentially acted as both a TN modifier (hefty at that) and a wired reflexes while driving the vehicle. Is something comparable available for SR4, or did you just ditch the concept altogether in favour of combining wired and skillwires with a commlink?

Q: If there still is a vehicle control rig of some kind, how does it work now there are no more TN modifiers? Add dice?

Q: Will there be vehicle modding rules? A rigger who's restricted to off the shelf vehicles is pretty useless.

Q: You mentioned that drones use their AI rating for tests. Does that mean rigging drones becomes impossible in favour of, say, a more god's eye way of controlling them (kinda like a PC startegy game)?

Q: Can technomanchers, if there is no more VCR, operate machines as well as hack and crack their way through M2.0?
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mfb
post Aug 23 2005, 12:23 PM
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the VCR concept was pretty much ditched. anybody with hot sim can jump into a drone (at least, the rules i have assume the rigger is using hot sim). the other basic concepts of rigging remain the same, though with obvious mechanical differences. technomancers can be riggers, though they need something to boost their signal rating, usually. oddly, i don't believe there are any rules for controlling drones through the Matrix; you pretty much have to control them directly (eg, using your own transmitter).
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hobgoblin
post Aug 23 2005, 12:43 PM
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well it would be easy to houserule. just say that as long as the drone have access to a wireless connection it can relay the signal across the net :P

or is there some signal booster or relay drone like the hedgehog available in the BBB?
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blakkie
post Aug 23 2005, 12:45 PM
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QUOTE (mfb @ Aug 23 2005, 06:23 AM)
the VCR concept was pretty much ditched. anybody with hot sim can jump into a drone (at least, the rules i have assume the rigger is using hot sim). the other basic concepts of rigging remain the same, though with obvious mechanical differences. technomancers can be riggers, though they need something to boost their signal rating, usually. oddly, i don't believe there are any rules for controlling drones through the Matrix; you pretty much have to control them directly (eg, using your own transmitter).

Technos need a signal boost even if they are in the vehicle? Or just if they try to control the vehicle near or beyond their Resonance based signal range?

EDIT: Oh, and do you have the choice of AR (i suppose this is the old virtual dashboard mode) or VR? What are the benefits of VR over AR? You can still get dumpshock in VR, correct? What about AR, any risk of damaging feedback?
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HotShot
post Aug 23 2005, 12:47 PM
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I dont think anyone asked this so far.

Is it still possible to "RIG" Security systems? I never used it in SR3, but i would like to start using it in SR4.

Thanx
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Nikoli
post Aug 23 2005, 01:12 PM
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QUOTE (mfb)
the VCR concept was pretty much ditched. anybody with hot sim can jump into a drone (at least, the rules i have assume the rigger is using hot sim). the other basic concepts of rigging remain the same, though with obvious mechanical differences. technomancers can be riggers, though they need something to boost their signal rating, usually. oddly, i don't believe there are any rules for controlling drones through the Matrix; you pretty much have to control them directly (eg, using your own transmitter).

So, Riggers don't exist. They all either retired or became Deckers with grease under their fingers.
Lame.
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hobgoblin
post Aug 23 2005, 01:14 PM
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QUOTE (hotshot)
Is it still possible to "RIG" Security systems? I never used it in SR3, but i would like to start using it in SR4.


hmm, good question. at first control of a building was the realm of a decker doing overwatch. then came the sec rigger. and now that rigging and decking have merged i have a feel we are back at overwatch. but maybe a kind of overwatch where one "rigger" goes along with the sec team on patrol while another stays back at base to monitor things.

kinda like those rigger teams from rigger3.

heh, i keep pushing the edge of these threads dont i?
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Nikoli
post Aug 23 2005, 01:16 PM
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Only thing is, there aren't any Riggers anymore. The VCR made the rigger. It was their edge, it's gone. Any jackass with a commlink and drive is a rigger now, at least from what has been released so far. That upsets me greatly as my favorite characters have always been riggers.
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hobgoblin
post Aug 23 2005, 01:18 PM
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no offence but take any rant to a diffrent thread, this is a Q&a thread ;)
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hahnsoo
post Aug 23 2005, 01:20 PM
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QUOTE (Nikoli)
That official or arse-ware?

Official (p233) - Technomancers have no form of organic storage memory whatsoever, so if they want to download a file, they need to mentally transfer it to a physical storage device.

QUOTE
Is something comparable available for SR4, or did you just ditch the concept altogether in favour of combining wired and skillwires with a commlink?

Q: If there still is a vehicle control rig of some kind, how does it work now there are no more TN modifiers? Add dice?
There is a piece of Cyberware called the "Control Rig" which has a 0.5 essence cost. It basically is a VCR (in terms of description), except that it provides a benefit of +2 dice on all vehicle tests when you are using "full-VR" to control a vehicle. It isn't clear to me whether anyone with a Commlink and a Sim Module can do "full-VR" to control a vehicle (and get ginormous benefits to initiative, I might add), but a person with a Control Rig would be able to do it better.
QUOTE
Q: Will there be vehicle modding rules? A rigger who's restricted to off the shelf vehicles is pretty useless.
Probably in the future "Arsenal" supplement. Vehicles and drones literally get one page (front and back), and have two upgrades, Rigger Adaptation and Weapon Mounts (1 mount per Body/3 round down, holds up to an LMG).
QUOTE
Q: You mentioned that drones use their AI rating for tests. Does that mean rigging drones becomes impossible in favour of, say, a more god's eye way of controlling them (kinda like a PC startegy game)?
You can "jump into" a Rigger Adapted vehicle or drone, and still control your other drones (using their Pilot rating for tests).
QUOTE
Q: Can technomanchers, if there is no more VCR, operate machines as well as hack and crack their way through M2.0?
Again, I'm not seeing any text that forbids someone without a Control Rig to "jump into" a vehicle/drone, and certainly a technomancer can spoof commands to a drone to make it do things the current subscriber doesn't intend it to.
QUOTE
Is it still possible to "RIG" Security systems? I never used it in SR3, but i would like to start using it in SR4.
I believe so, if you have a Rigger Adapted building.
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Nikoli
post Aug 23 2005, 01:24 PM
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Thanks. That eases my concerns a great deal.
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Demonseed Elite
post Aug 23 2005, 01:31 PM
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Yep, building riggers are still an available option.
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HotShot
post Aug 23 2005, 01:59 PM
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Thanx for the answers guys. Heres another one.

I know some of you said the rules were more open to interpretation. But lets say my player tell me: " ok i try to unlock the door in front of me so i can escape"

What is the usual roll to do this?

P.S. I'm a new Poster, but i've been watching the forums for a quite a while. It's fun to see that it isn't inside jokes anymore, so i can finally participate :)
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hahnsoo
post Aug 23 2005, 02:00 PM
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QUOTE (Spookymonster)
Also, is there any mention of used cyberware?

No mention of used cyberware at all.
QUOTE
EDIT: Oh, and do you have the choice of AR (i suppose this is the old virtual dashboard mode) or VR? What are the benefits of VR over AR? You can still get dumpshock in VR, correct? What about AR, any risk of damaging feedback?
AR requires a Commlink, and is analogous to astral perception (you can see the Matrix and manipulate it), and you can't get dumpshock, although being attacked with attack programs or viral ware, or being in spam/static zones, can give you penalties. Highly congested areas can also give you a sort of "background count" penalty, similar to spam zones. AR uses meatbody initiative and initiative passes. VR requires a Sim Module and a Commlink, and is analogous to astral projection... your body flops over, and your persona flies off to whereever. Full VR is also used when you "Jump In" a drone or vehicle and take it over... you effectively become the vehicle. In cold sim, you get an extra initiative pass and use Matrix initiative instead of meatbody initiative. In hot sim, you get a bonus to your initiative, another initiative pass (for a total of 3 passes), and +2 to ALL tests done in the Matrix (note: This bonus only applies for Matrix actions, not vehicle tests, although I will note that now you can do Matrix Actions while you are Jumped Into a drone/vehicle without penalty). VR causes dumpshock when you are jacked out, and you take damage from Black IC/Blackout (only Stun damage if in cold sim, Physical Damage if hit with Black IC while in hot sim). VR is basically similar to the old way of decking or rigging.
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maeel
post Aug 23 2005, 03:01 PM
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QUOTE
QUOTE 
Q: Will there be vehicle modding rules? A rigger who's restricted to off the shelf vehicles is pretty useless.

Probably in the future "Arsenal" supplement. Vehicles and drones literally get one page (front and back), and have two upgrades, Rigger Adaptation and Weapon Mounts (1 mount per Body/3 round down, holds up to an LMG).



How many vehicles are on this page? i can't and don't want to believe that they don't intend to integrate vehicle design rules into Arsenal. i mean one front &back page of vehicles... what kinda bullshit is that supposed to be? no one is gonna play rigger anymore...... :mad:

we should send in a team !!! :vegm:
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hermit
post Aug 23 2005, 04:33 PM
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So, there is a sorta VCR that gives you some dice boni, but vehicle riggers have now become much less effective than they were (as in, only one initiative pass)? As in, one initiative pass, no initiatiive boni gained by hot sim or other fast-making matrix ware stuff? I sure hope not. "with five years and a serious jump in technology, riggers became much, much less effetive" really is stupid. Very much so. But they can hack while they rig. Yay.
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hahnsoo
post Aug 23 2005, 05:13 PM
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QUOTE (hermit @ Aug 23 2005, 11:33 AM)
So, there is a sorta VCR that gives you some dice boni, but vehicle riggers have now become much less effective than they were (as in, only one initiative pass)? As in, one initiative pass, no initiatiive boni gained by hot sim or other fast-making matrix ware stuff?

Whoa. I never said that. Vehicle Riggers are automatically using Full VR (cold sim or hot sim) when they are rigging ("Jumped in" a vehicle), which means that they use Response (of their commlink or whatever hardwired system they are running) + Intuition for Initiative and at least one extra initiative pass (two if Hot Sim VR).
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hermit
post Aug 23 2005, 05:54 PM
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QUOTE
Whoa. I never said that. Vehicle Riggers are automatically using Full VR (cold sim or hot sim) when they are rigging ("Jumped in" a vehicle), which means that they use Response (of their commlink or whatever hardwired system they are running) + Intuition for Initiative and at least one extra initiative pass (two if Hot Sim VR).

Ah, so there's basically a high-initiative, three-pass rigger that's the maxiumum now. Still slower tha a VCR 3 Rigger, but it will do, I guess.

And it's wireless. That makes operating drones while in a building easier, I guess. And another guess: Riggers will HAVE to learn hacking skills, if only to defend themselves against any deckhead infiltrating their systems.

Oh well. Guess it will do. Not what I would have liked, but meh.

What's up with hot/cold sim anyway? Does hot sim mean more intensive connection, and does that mean that a rigger who's dumpshocked from a vehicle using hot sim gets physical damage or something like that? (I hope not, that would make hot sim'ed riggers pretty much unable to jump into small body 0 drones, unless they want to die with them if anything hits them - if there still are such small drones, that is).
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Nikoli
post Aug 23 2005, 05:56 PM
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I'm thinking Technomancer/Rigger concepts now.
Sprites to defend the drones whilst you drive or hack the opposition.
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hermit
post Aug 23 2005, 05:58 PM
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Technomancers - the new uber characters. Even if they lose resonance with essence, they still can do what three character classs could do before.
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hahnsoo
post Aug 23 2005, 06:00 PM
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QUOTE (hermit)
Ah, so there's basically a high-initiative, three-pass rigger that's the maxiumum now. Still slower tha a VCR 3 Rigger, but it will do, I guess.

Well, I wouldn't write off the 4-pass rigger just yet. New tech might come out in the upcoming Arsenal book.
QUOTE
And it's wireless. That makes operating drones while in a building easier, I guess. And another guess: Riggers will HAVE to learn hacking skills, if only to defend themselves against any deckhead infiltrating their systems.
It might or might not be wireless. You can still hardwire yourself using a Control Rig and Sim Module through a Datajack, eliminating any wireless vulnerabilities. You probably will want to have a relatively high Firewall rating on your drones to prevent hijacking, of course. While a lot of Riggers will learn technical skills, they will probably focus more on Electronic Warfare and their Signal and Firewall rating rather than Response/System and Cracking skills. There is a whole column that describes the differences in focus between a Rigger and a Cracker.

Trust me, the Vehicle Rigger is still around (check the Smuggler archetype when you get the book).
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hahnsoo
post Aug 23 2005, 06:02 PM
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QUOTE (hermit)
Technomancers - the new uber characters. Even if they lose resonance with essence, they still can do what three character classs could do before.

Anyone with a Commlink can do the same things that Technomancers do, if they are skilled enough and have the right programs. It's not that Technomancers have become better, but they are simply an equivalent option. Hackers/Riggers get the benefit of cyberware and gear and are pretty cheap to maintain Karma-wise, while Technomancers are expensive Karma-wise, but don't rely on any gear at all.
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hobgoblin
post Aug 23 2005, 06:25 PM
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so basicly, one can finaly have that vehicle adept people where asking for :silly:
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hahnsoo
post Aug 23 2005, 07:08 PM
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Another thing (just read this): Characters who are using AR while they are driving have a +1 dice pool modifier (to represent the additional GPS information and other things that might pop up on the display). Remote piloting does not receive this bonus. Those who use full-VR to jack into the vehicle or "jump into" the vehicle get a -1 threshold modifier on the various threshold-based tests. For example, the classic "Bootlegger Reverse" or J-turn from Car Wars would be a threshold of 3 instead of 4.
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Bandwidthoracle
post Aug 23 2005, 07:20 PM
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can someone expand on the vireses/IC?
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Nikoli
post Aug 23 2005, 07:26 PM
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Suddenly I got this image of seeing an AR sign stating severe tire damage and if you drive through the area IC attacks your vehicle and proceeds to have the vehicle to burn-outs until the tires are shredded.
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Nikoli
post Aug 23 2005, 08:20 PM
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To be fair, I've never seen a BBB with more than a smattering of vehicles. Emphassis was always on interpersonal combat, magic and the Matrix. Riggers were ever the red-headed step child IMO.
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Milo Simpkin
post Aug 23 2005, 08:23 PM
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Yeah I was gonna start moaning about that Nikoli, until I remembered exactly what you said. Never really anything in a core rules book for them.
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hermit
post Aug 23 2005, 11:03 PM
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Well, now it looks like they got even less. Not even a VCR 3 equivalent anymore. :(

How does firewall rating and stuff work for drones? A bit like installing Autosofts of old? And what autosoft types are covered in the BBB?
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Bandwidthoracle
post Aug 24 2005, 04:16 AM
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So woudl it be possible to get a list/description of virieses and IC?
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hahnsoo
post Aug 24 2005, 07:08 AM
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IC are the equivalent of Agents, with a Firewall and Pilot rating. They are all considered the same, save for their program loadout, which may contain the following programs: Analyze, Attack, Black Hammer, Blackout, and Track.

As far as virus programs, there are Databombs and Encryption. IC can also be attached to files and programs, triggering them when the file/program is accessed or decrypted. (p 222)
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mintcar
post Aug 24 2005, 09:02 AM
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Actually, I think rigger characters will be more popular now. You don´t have to specialize so hard on it that you don´t know anything else, and you´re not so godlike compaired to other drivers that car chases are no fun. This is exactly what the riggers needed. I´m just going to forget that they were ever as effective as before.

And another thing. The old VCR was a very essence heavy piece of ware with very limited uses for an ordinary person. I could never justify why people would have them unless they were professional drivers or security personel. Thus, rigger adapted vehicles had to be uncommon. Now on the other hand, anybody with simrig and commlink could use a rigger adapted vehicle. That´s ware that most people would have plenty of reasons to get. Rigger adapted vehicles could even be the norm in well-to-do areas. Imagine what that means for your rigger, fellows! No longer does the rigger concept need to be limited to the resource well gear-head that´s welded into his own customized vehicle. You could make a car thief rigger. An all purpouse wheelman that can drive anything. Lots of gritty concepts are now open that doesn´t bring the batmobile to mind.
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morlock76
post Aug 24 2005, 10:19 AM
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QUOTE (mintcar)
You could make a car thief rigger. An all purpouse wheelman that can drive anything. Lots of gritty concepts are now open that doesn´t bring the batmobile to mind.

Making a rigger a much more viable profession as runner.
I never liked the idea of investing VERY heavy into something external that could as well be stolen as was pretty much not replaceable ingame.
Not the practice of a nice GM, but when making a char I pref to take a look at such an angle as well.
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hobgoblin
post Aug 24 2005, 11:10 AM
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the real problem with the old rigger was that the entry level VCR where to costly. i could understand having the VCR3 be a close to military kind of gear but the VCR1? that should be within reach of any hotrod-driving ganger that want that extra edge while cruising the I's at night ;)

and this can now happen with the new modularity of the rigger gear.
a teen ganger with a interest in hotrods may well go hot or cold sim while trying to save up the cash to get a control rig to realy get that edge :cyber:

im guessing that future books may well contrain new boosters to said control rig to give a even bigger edge ;)

whats the cost of a control rig in terms of essence btw?
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hermit
post Aug 24 2005, 11:27 AM
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.5, it's been mentioned above.
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hobgoblin
post Aug 24 2005, 11:43 AM
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oops, missed it or forgot about it i guess. or maybe i was just lazy ;)

hmm, that allows a sammie to sideline as a getaway driver :cyber:
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morlock76
post Aug 24 2005, 01:09 PM
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It was very hard to be a hybrid rigger before and I like that its viable (possibly) so now, still giving the hard core riggers enough room to shine.

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Bandwidthoracle
post Aug 24 2005, 03:09 PM
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QUOTE (morlock76)
It was very hard to be a hybrid rigger before and I like that its viable (possibly) so now, still giving the hard core riggers enough room to shine.

This allows for the conjuror to have a combination spirit/done army! :D
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Rotbart van Dain...
post Aug 24 2005, 03:23 PM
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Well, that was perfectly possible even in SR3 - captains chair only required trodes. ;)
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Bandwidthoracle
post Aug 24 2005, 03:28 PM
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So is it feasible for a technomancer to be in VR, or are the best technomancers stuck in AR due to the essence cost?
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mintcar
post Aug 24 2005, 05:53 PM
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I would be very surprised if technomancers could not go full vr without ware. I´ve seen the allegory be made that a technomancer doing ar is like a mage doing astral perception.. I for one think that technomancers are able to virtually project as well as perceve.
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blakkie
post Aug 24 2005, 05:58 PM
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QUOTE (hobgoblin)
oops, missed it or forgot about it i guess. or maybe i was just lazy ;)

hmm, that allows a sammie to sideline as a getaway driver :cyber:

They always could, the difference is now the odds are better that they succeed than wrap the getaway car around the front of a semi. ;)
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hahnsoo
post Aug 24 2005, 06:00 PM
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Technomancers can go full VR (in fact, they prefer this, according to the book). Technomancers are always considered as being in hot-sim VR, and cannot do cold-sim VR at all (unless they strap on a commlink and do it "old school").
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NeoJudas
post Aug 24 2005, 08:20 PM
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QUOTE (hermit)
Hmmm. Now, to the other character type to be covered in this thread: Riggers.

Q: A rigger is supposed to be better than an average joe with a datajack (or, I guess, a commlink) at driving a vehicle. In SR1 through 3, this was made possible by using a piece of cyber that essentially acted as both a TN modifier (hefty at that) and a wired reflexes while driving the vehicle. Is something comparable available for SR4, or did you just ditch the concept altogether in favour of combining wired and skillwires with a commlink?

Q: If there still is a vehicle control rig of some kind, how does it work now there are no more TN modifiers? Add dice?
The Control Rig is the only device that I see involved, aside from perhaps a Simrig (to achieve full VR). Adds +2 dice to control tests when fully emersed "jumped in" to the vehicle. Does not work for other drones in network that aren't vehicles (pg 331).

Please remember that in full VR mode however, the Hacker/Rigger gets additional bonuses. For instance you now use the Matrix Initiative (Response + Intuition) and receive an additional Initiative Pass (total of two now). This is "Cold Sim" btw, which is a mode of VR.

"Hot Sim" requires a bit more modding to the Commlink but it gives the following:

Intiative is now Response + Intuition + 1 and an extra initiative pass (for a total of three now).
+2 Dice to all Matrix Tests (this qualifies to me at least for rigger a vehicle directly).

I pulled this from the VR Section (pg 228-229) and "Jumping Into Drones" (pg 239).

I am personally of the opinion that it might be possible to "overclock" a Control Rig in a way that Technomancers through Emersion can get the "overclock" initiative boost. This would give yet another initiative pass and bonus to initiative. But that is my opinion.
QUOTE
Q: Will there be vehicle modding rules? A rigger who's restricted to off the shelf vehicles is pretty useless.
Actually this was talked about very briefly during the "What's Up with" seminar at Gencon on Saturday (20th). Rob does not want a book like Rigger-2/Rigger-3. He does want to give the ability to mod vehicles, but I don't believe he wants to go into the full-on "Build Your Own from Scratch" argument. While as a player/GM I find this an incredibly limiting viewpoint as a developer I can understand it from the POV of someone who does not want to have to deal with all the bitching/whining that arising from people who have conflicting opinions/perceptions of how the B/R rules worked originally.

QUOTE
Q: You mentioned that drones use their AI rating for tests. Does that mean rigging drones becomes impossible in favour of, say, a more god's eye  way of controlling them (kinda like a PC startegy game)?
I personally do not understand this question. The "AI" rating is the Pilot Rating, which has always been around for drones and was always used to determine how well a particular vehicle/robot (and now Agents) could work their way through a problem. There is still the need for subscriber lists (pg 238) but there seems to be a bit more flexibility with moving drones in/out of a subscriber list in general. Something I always thought was messed up in the old rigger-related rules.
QUOTE
Q: Can technomanchers, if there is no more VCR, operate machines as well as hack and crack their way through M2.0?
It actually gives the comparison that Technomancers and Hackers who focus on rigger drones and vehicles do exist. (First Sentence under Rigging and Drones pg 238).

I do note that some of this stuff is going to be interesting to see how it plays out under much heavier playing here.
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JBlades
post Aug 25 2005, 02:26 AM
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My question is, what can you do once you've hacked someone's PAN? Can you lock their smartlinked gun so they can't fire it? I mean, what are your options?

Extrapolating, would all the sec guards at a facility be running their smartlinks off of the facility's LAN? So if you hacked the LAN, you could wirelessly kill all the guns in the complex as easily as taking out the sec cameras used to be? It seems like a squad of sec guards would want to have their PANs linked for communication, and if they're all receiving transmission from a central hub...

I mean, what are your options, since a lot more things seem to be hooked into the matrix now?
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