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Gutz
post Sep 7 2005, 10:54 PM
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Hi there everyone, I am a bit new so please take everything I say with a grain of salt here until I acclimate to the "culture".

After having read the rules I have some opinions good and bad about the new system.

The Bad

1) The shift to Attribute + Skill kind of rubs me the wrong way. It really moves away from what FASA was doing with its games at the time of 3rd ed. Something I really agree with. At no time should an attribute really overshadow skill. I think that a game mechanic that gives equal representation to an attrubute for a skill roll gives an unfair advantage to people who create characters with heavy emphasis on attributes at the cost of skills which are generally easier to increase with Karma. It just doesn't seem to mesh with the way things work for me. Shadowrun and Mechwarrior 3rd simply made it easier for you to increase skills if you had high likend attributes. This makes more sense to me since natural aptitude really just makes things easier to pick up instead of making you a savant. I can see two reasons for making this move. Firstly, when you are designing a system that requires the modification of dice pools, you have to have a fairly significant die pool to manipulate while still being able to provide realistic modifiers. You are left with either going with adding a lot of positive modifiers, having relatively high skill levels or going with a linked attribute score. I didn't like it in White Wolf and I don't like it here. In general I feel that Shadowrun has really taken a lot from the White Wolf book here and I am not sure I like it.

2) I really really really hate the loss of the "pool" system. Whether it be combat, casting, haking or control. I think that it was one of the things that really set Shadowrun apart from other systems. I felt that the combat pool had a significant factor in putting you in the drivers seat of the combat. Thinking ahead about dividing your pool amoungst mutliple actions, modifying your level of aggressiveness and generally making on the spot calls that made or broke a combat. I think that the combat system is a lot less dynamic without it.

3) Close combat does not allow for defenders to score hits. Once again, making the game a little less dynamic. Counterstriking and exploiting overextensions in attack are a good part of close combat. With the loss of this more "swirling melee" type simulation we are left with a very bland and ordinary combat system that is generally the same as any other in any system. Making things sort of videogamey.

The Good

1) They really got creative with the setting upgrade. Some real nice work here in keeping up with the pace of technology. Although I think the AR system adds a bit of a challenge to the GM its pretty darn facinating. Although its a bit of a rip off from Cybergeneration's "trode" system. Being a Decker/Hacker isnt as much of a party encuberance as it used to be, which is basically the bane of a Cyberpunk game. I like the smooth integration of Rigging and computer use. Real nice.

2) The Technomancer is super sweet. Shadowrun is not totally a dual world where every aspect of life is touched and manipulated by magic. Mage deckers. They even alluded to it in 3rd ed. This really brings things full circle.

3) 4th edition gives us a more generalized and comprehensive look at magic. It gives the GM a broader set of generic rules for creating traditions. Spells seem more varied and spirit use is nicely unified between traditions, leaving things mostly separated by flavor and feel.

Any Thoughts?
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Ellery
post Sep 7 2005, 11:55 PM
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I basically agree. I may post in much more detail later. There are other things I really dislike (loss of variable TNs, loss of damage levels--both result in a less tense game, and tend more towards foregone conclusions) and a few that I like (improvements to ritual sorcery come to mind).

The one place where I disagree with you is with technomancers. They are clearly magical, given that there is no physical mechanism by which someone can send and receive radio waves with unaugmented brains. But the book doesn't say they are magical ("you decide!") and the first ones were created in the Crash in 2064 (how do you create magical activity with a virus--doesn't that go against the "magical ability is inborn/innate" canon?) and they are harmed by implanted technology despite being spawned by people who were dependent upon implanted technology. It's all very weird. It's especially odd to be maintaining the magic-tech tension with essence loss affecting magic and resonance, but losing the magic-tech tension by supposing that people who interact really well with technology do so magically.

If you ignore all those difficulties--if you ignore the SR backstory and previous editions--then I suppose technomancers are kind of cool. However, they do strike me as rather too lame a copy of post-Architect Neo.

The AR stuff is a nice addition. It was implemented impossibly fast, but I guess it wasn't feasible to advance the timeline much more than 5 years or else people's characters would be too old to make the transition, and that wouldn't be good for sales. An easily overlooked flaw, given the advantages of an AR system. (It's a pity there wasn't more AR in earlier SR products!)

The magical traditions I think are an open issue. The unification has the great danger of eroding all significant differences between magical traditions, removing richness from the game. (Melting pot vs. tossed salad.) If future fiction and games really stresses individual traditions, makes them feel distinct and important and all, then I think the unified construction rules will be a plus. Otherwise, it will end up just removing material from the game that was not complex, not hard to keep track of, and made for interesting variety. I understand that developers didn't like the old traditions' strength because it trod on their creative freedom or something. But losing content is kind of dull.
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hahnsoo
post Sep 8 2005, 12:06 AM
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QUOTE (Ellery)
An easily overlooked flaw, given the advantages of an AR system. (It's a pity there wasn't more AR in earlier SR products!)

Just to address this point, both Shadows of Europe and Shadows of Asia have examples of proto-AR environments. Neo-Tokyo is described as a Wireless World in a similar manner to the current AR implementation. The tech curve does seem a bit "jumpy" for full worldwide implementation of this, but it's no faster than the prevalence of the cellphone/SMS messaging culture that has arisen in the past decade.
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Rotbart van Dain...
post Sep 8 2005, 12:07 AM
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Hell, even SotA64 had those LinkClubs...
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SL James
post Sep 8 2005, 12:31 AM
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You did see the word "more", right?
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Bull
post Sep 8 2005, 06:49 AM
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Considering that 90%+ of the entire world is owned and operated by less than a dozen corporations, if they all got together and decided that the entire worlds matrix system should be replaced by spaghetti, I think it would take maybe 2 years tops for pasta to be running through the walls of almost every household in the world.

They make damn near every product. The control the service centers. And most electronics and components today are deisgned around a 3-5 year lifespan. There's a reason Sears and other places don't generally offer anything longer than a 3 year warranty on products. They don;t expect it to last much longer than that.

So if they decide to upgrade, they simply replace everything. Within 5 years, the majority of electronics and mechanicals in the worlds needs replaced, or repaired. And since they're out of production items, they're more expensive to repair. After all, if only one or two palces in the world make the parts for your wired smartlink system now, they can and will charge whatever they want. Eventually, it becomes cheaper to upgrade than to keep up with repairs.

And with the events of System Failure making it necessary to repair and replace major companents of the Matrix in the first place...

<shrug>

Bull
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Kagetenshi
post Sep 8 2005, 06:51 AM
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QUOTE (Bull)
And most electronics and components today are deisgned around a 3-5 year lifespan.

That's… not remotely true. The consumer marketspace is not the overall marketspace.

~J
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Synner
post Sep 8 2005, 07:03 AM
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Having translated internal technical manuals and fix guides for the local support crews for companies such as Intel, Sony, Samsung, Grundig and Nokia for everything from TVs to computers to cellphones I beg to difer... 5 years is optimistic.

As for network hardware the introduction of 3G phones over the past couple of years have forced many Eurotelecoms to upgrade most of their (5-6 year old tops) networks for the added traffic, greater demand for stable connections and wireless compatiblity (in Europe, Vodaphone alone has spent 650 million USD on upgrading their network hardware in under 2 years according to a Financial Times report) - ie. the widespread popularity of a new consumer technology forced an upgrade of the backend hardware to meet the new market standard.
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Bull
post Sep 8 2005, 09:13 AM
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Well, I am coming at you from a retail and consumer standpoint. I worked retail at a number of outlets over the years, and 3 years is what I will empatically tell anyone will be the expected average lifespan for any piece of technology they will use. There are plenty of exceptions to this, on both sides of the argument. For every story of "Well my vaccum cleaner has run great for 15 years", I've heard "I just bought this a year ago and it blew up!".

Why should Shadowrun be any different? We're still talking consumer goods on most scales.

Hell, I work at one of the largest hospital systems in the US. They're one of the top 5 research hopsitals in at least the country (I dunno the exact specifics, I was half asleep during orientation and bored outta my skull). lemme tell you... 9/10 of the crap here is "consumer" level, and often mid-low end consumer at that. The rest is specialized equipment that they can only purchase from one or two places in the world, and they have to likewise buy their parts from those places. If at some point those companies said "Well, we no longer support this machine", we would be fucked, and would have to buy a completely new machine.

Bull
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morlock76
post Sep 8 2005, 10:38 AM
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If you take into account, how quickly technology changes now already, I dont see a problem with a new world wide matrix in 5 years.

Examples (for and against, unsorted):
My TV set is about 15 years old and still works fine. No worries for HDTV though, but as we dont have (much if at all) that in germany, no worries.

We have UMTS cells since about 2 years now, no one wants em due to costs, not of the cell but the use of the new tech.
Same goes for SMS / MMS. SMS work perfectly for a nice price, MMS dont offer that much more overall that I would only use them. SMS tech is how old? I have had cells for about 10 years now, no one used SMS back then though.

Try using a 10 year old PC nowdays, or get hardware for it. Software? *HAHA*

There are studies showing how long it took for TVs to become common, then CD Players, then VHS Players and now DVD Players. The turnover rate to new tech is getting shorter and shorter already.
1) The tech wont hold as long as it used to be
2) The tech is way cheaper nowdays as it used to be (compared)
Well both points are pretty much linked though...

But given the consumper PoV its simple: give my broken VHS to repair, buy a new one (same price as repair) or upgrade to new tech (same price +/- some %).

Theres always the nostalgic person and the tech savy one, but once the broad mass is used to ever changing tech and the interfaces of the stuff is easier, I expect even old ppl (no offense) to change to new tech where they can, even though there are many that dont think highly of new tech nowdays.
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Ellery
post Sep 8 2005, 11:19 AM
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Either there was a lot of unannounced wireless capability in 2063/4, or there was massive retrofitting to almost every consumer electronics device in short order. It's not as simple as everyone having a new cell phone.

The megas certainly could force it through if they wanted, but where would the profit be in that? They could force through lots of other more profitable things if they wanted, but they seem not to.

One could go back and create backstory about how all electronics devices were modularizable and really cheap AR interface transmitters became commonplace and everyone went and stuck them in everything. I didn't see much of that, but maybe I didn't look in the right places.
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blakkie
post Sep 8 2005, 11:27 AM
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Do we need to get David Spade in here?

Buh-bye.
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apple
post Sep 8 2005, 11:42 AM
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QUOTE (Ellery)
Either there was a lot of unannounced wireless capability in 2063/4

Matrix 3: wireless access
Sprawl Survival Guide: networked home, telecom
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Ellery
post Sep 8 2005, 11:47 AM
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Sorry, I mean in all the things that people are hacking these days. If the security system on your door didn't have a wireless interface before, and it wasn't easily upgraded, it wouldn't now, either.

I agree that all the technological precursors were there at low penetrance waiting to be used. It's the scope more than the speed of the penetrance that is surprising. (The speed is surprising given the apparent change in scope.)
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Synner
post Sep 8 2005, 12:32 PM
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QUOTE (Ellery)
Sorry, I mean in all the things that people are hacking these days. If the security system on your door didn't have a wireless interface before, and it wasn't easily upgraded, it wouldn't now, either.

Then again 10 years ago most cars didn't come remote lock-enabled... but I agree not everything is wireless enabled and if you visit the backwaters Hicksville or the Yucatan the locals won't be packing wi-fi enabled gear.

QUOTE
I agree that all the technological precursors were there at low penetrance waiting to be used.  It's the scope more than the speed of the penetrance that is surprising.  (The speed is surprising given the apparent change in scope.)

Reading back over the FanPro material in the last couple of years (starting with SSG, going through SoE, SOTA:64 and now SoA) I think you'll find a bunch of specialized applications of AR and wireless tech (I'll note that the WMI project was only meant to bring in Wireless simsense level network connectivity) in a number of different places. Given today's rate of implementation of (proven) tech, 5 years was an acceptable compromise for it to filter into widespread circulation particularly if the megas are promoting it as the next big thing and can trick people into buying the "new and improved" wi-fi enabled version of their pre-Crash2.0 products.
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Superbum
post Sep 8 2005, 01:00 PM
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IIRC, in 2009 a Congress mandate will go into effect here in the states. All radio signals for televisions will shutdown and every broadcast company will either be satalite or digital. So if anyone here in the states still has a 15 year old television.....
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Ellery
post Sep 8 2005, 01:01 PM
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They've extended that deadline so many times....
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Superbum
post Sep 8 2005, 01:03 PM
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Ah, first Ive heard about it. Doesn't suprise me though.
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Ellery
post Sep 8 2005, 01:06 PM
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It's hard to force the voting public to give up established technology. You have to pull them with cool new stuff (and low price), not push them with mandates. Not if you want to get reelected, anyway.
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Superbum
post Sep 8 2005, 01:32 PM
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Yeah, only reason I heard about it is because I have a friend that hooked me up at Best Buy. Finally got myself a new tv and he told me about it while I was there. Makes me laugh though because they should force this upon everyone as it should clear up some much needed airwaves.
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Bull
post Sep 8 2005, 01:46 PM
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QUOTE (Ellery)
The megas certainly could force it through if they wanted, but where would the profit be in that? They could force through lots of other more profitable things if they wanted, but they seem not to.

Why would they? Simple.

Corp A: "We're sorry Joe and Jane Citizen. But those nukes and the Matrix crash that happened? Screwed up our computer systems. We have to implement new ones."

Joe: "That's ok. We're mad we can't get our Matrix prOn for a while, but it'll be fine when you get things fixed."

Corp B: "Well, yeah, see. We're upgrading everything. And if you want your phones and everything else to work, you need to upgrade too."

Jane: "Upgrade? So you mean we have to..."

Corp C: *Evil Laugh* "Yes! YOu have to buy ALL your old shit over again, because it's now useless!"

Corp A-J: *Group evil laugh and the sound of cash registers opening"

Convince the public that they need to switch through marketing campaigns. Tell them their old systems aren't safe. Convince them that the new systems are 10 times better, 10 times faster, and oh look, even cheaper than the old ones!

And is EVERYTHING wireless? No. Hell, there are Wireless "Dead Zones" because tehre are some areas that haven't upgraded the local networks. And things like older cars and guns won;t necessarily be linked up either. But anything new, anything within the last 2-3 years at least will come like that standard.

Bull
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kigmatzomat
post Sep 8 2005, 05:44 PM
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A lot of the wired infrastructure that wasn't nuked is probably still in use (or dark fiber waiting for a shadownet). Take apartments with built-in trid. Rebuild the whole building or just install a wireless gateway on the roof and plug the building's net into that? As stuff dies, replace it with wireless.

IMO the main advantage of wireless is that it forces all devices to have a firewall. If you look at 99% of current LANs they are defenseless PCs hiding behind firewalls/VPNs/etc.. The largest/smartest companies have router-level systems that look for attacks but how many of their WinXP boxes are running even the craptastic XP-firewall? Pretty much none.

As far as bandwidth....screw it, I'm saying every single device takes advantage of quantum entanglement to transmit the data. It's the only thing I can think of that might give you multiple OC3's worth of data path in the same airspace. IMC some numbnut came up with the quantum-entanglement equivalent of making LCDs (crushed velvet?!?) in that it works but nobody knows how or why. Otherwise I'll record random snippets of ST:TNG and and play it backwards loudly at anyone who asks how dozens of simsense feeds get sent over the air.
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NeoJudas
post Sep 8 2005, 06:03 PM
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Okay, I am going to get involved in this conversation (having been avoiding so many dozens of others save where entertainment value is retained).

I agree that the Scope and Depth and Timing of the change is dramatic, and it seems wholly unbelievable by modern day operating standards.

I also agree that the Consumer market drives foundational economies.

I also agree that a politician cannot force his/her/its pundits to make changes in their supporting habitual natures (what type of tv, what type of phone, where to eat, etc) without risking political suicide.

However

The other examples everyone is giving are not really on cue either. Synner's example for instance involves working as a manual writer and related support for other companies. However, he also gives a clue as to the real nature of the corporate beast. The Corporations don't make plans for materials to last beyond a certain point not because of durability but because of Marketable ROI (Return on Investment). If it costs "x" to make 50,000 cd players which can then be sold at "y" to each customer. The customer then gets to spend "y" amount which is then servicing all those things you put into the product (we'll call that CD after all ;-). If producing company says it's market outreach cap is 100,000 total units, then they determine how much it costs to make that money back plus their deemed appropriate profit margin. Producing company then says "well, if it takes us 2 years to reach our outreach cap, then in 2 years time I want to have the next better product."

THIS is what determines lifespan of product in the technological and service industries today globally.

Now let's get back to SR4 for a moment. We're looking at the WMI (the Wireless Matrix Initiative) being talked about in the "Shadows of " books (Asia, Europe and I presume the Latin America once it's on PDF). Research for this whole thing has already been in the works. Honestly, it is in the works in the REAL WORLD NOW. The big areas of economic gain with the WMI has to do with network maintenance. All the sheer electrical force/generation needs of a (re)growing/expanding population simply outdistances what we have to offer now. Lord knows in the theorectical age of SR4. Then let's talk wires/cabling. Even with the best technologies to lay down and install cabling imaginable (bubble-magnetic field implacement is the best thing I've heard of), it will still take time (man hours/drone hours) to take care of all those problems which include breakages and burnouts.

No, the whole reason the WMI is happening is because of sheer economics, and it is pretty clear that with the next technology being played with today (did anyone know that the cellphone tech being played within Nippon allows for streaming HD quality DVD-level feeds???) that bandwidth is simply not going to become an issue with regards to broadcasting.

Now then, with the discussion about Firewalls vs. Defenseless Networks, I do find things interesting. Has anyone else caught the part where the various grades of cyberware have Device Ratings??? And those Device Ratings serve as the Firewall, System, etc... attributes for that object with regards to hacking and such? Here's my dream scenario I thought of last night.

I'm going to have someone buy a Betaware Commlink implant that will then act as the HUB of the PAN for the guy. It has a built in Firewall of 5. As part of the PAN, the whole network is thus shielded behind that Firewall 5. This is something that I found extremely unusual given the whole new SR4 system. I found nothing that says I can't do it and everything that says I can. And thus I don't have to pay for anything more with regards to security (because a rating 5 Firewall in a basic/unmodified/no-house-rules SR4 game is damn near God).

And btw, to kigmatzomat ... nice to see you over here ... don't forget that networked Firewalls is how part of the "Self Repair/Self Watching" Cisco and IBM systems function. Gotta love the idea of "Teamworked Devices".
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Kagetenshi
post Sep 8 2005, 06:04 PM
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I've said it before, I'll say it again: firewalls only have a point if you are running services with vulnerabilities. I've got my firewall off right now and feel great about it.

Edit:

QUOTE
it is pretty clear that with the next technology being played with today that bandwidth is simply not going to become an issue with regards to broadcasting.

This is false. Well, it might be true, but the information we'll be able to transmit over that bandwidth will be sharply limited—too limited for anything like this to come into effect. I doubt we'll see those who own bandwidth relinquishing it, so that'll be limited as well.
QUOTE
(did anyone know that the cellphone tech being played within Nippon allows for streaming HD quality DVD-level feeds???)

Now try feeding different signals to any meaningful number of people. You aren't going to be able to, doubly so as the signal to any given person is noise to everyone else in the area.

~J
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Mightyflapjack
post Sep 8 2005, 08:21 PM
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Kagetenshi wrote:
I've said it before, I'll say it again: firewalls only have a point if you are running services with vulnerabilities. I've got my firewall off right now and feel great about it.

---
First of all, lets be clear here that the Matrix is a waaaaay oversimplification of actual computers. It has to be, because after all.. most of this stuff is theoritical at best, and fantasy at worst.

Look at encryption... Even at a basic level it is easy to understand that a system running encryption would require an EXPONENTIALLY more powerful system to "brute-force" hack the encryption. And I don't care if you have a system/commlink with all 6s, even if you are trying to break a simple encryption on a system 1 commlink it would take weeks, even months.

With these systems able to do brain functions in real-time (which technically means the computers have to be FASTER then the brain.. to keep up). I think it is more along the lines of multi gigabit level encryption.. which would take centuries..

But that is not "fun", and "fun" is mandatory. So we have "decrypt" programs that can do it in a few combat turns.. yeah.. ok..

It also stands to reason that firewalls in their definition is just an easily associated word to describe a systems security. So a low firewall 1-2 means that the system has not gotten all the updates and patchs, it has vulnerable holes in the OS, and is easily hackable.

However, just because someone has hacked a person's commlink.. does not mean they now own their soul. Remember that most any device can create nodes instantly.. and nodes can be both public and private... Most of a user's private SIN data will be on its own private node hidden in their commlink. Any sucesses in that node in detecting an intrusion would cause the node to shutdown in 1 turn, effectively dumping any would-be hacker. (Security sheef for a PAN node would be 1 = shutdown).

Since most users do not need their SIN data available 24/7, they can be paranoid and not even have that node "active" until they need it to make a purchase or pass an ID scan. An inactive node on a person's comlink could be activated by a hacker.. but would risk alerting the user just the same way.. and all they need is 1 success.


-----------------------------------
NeoJudas wrote:

It has a built in Firewall of 5. As part of the PAN, the whole network is thus shielded behind that Firewall 5. This is something that I found extremely unusual given the whole new SR4 system. I found nothing that says I can't do it and everything that says I can. And thus I don't have to pay for anything more with regards to security (because a rating 5 Firewall in a basic/unmodified/no-house-rules SR4 game is damn near God).
---
How is a firewall - 5 "god" ? System and Firewall don't even have an availability.. and a Rating 6 of either costs 3,000 nuyen. (Costs even less if you upgrade Novatech Nova OS to rating 6s).

But remember that hacking is now an extended test.. it is not a question of "IF" you can hack a system, but "when" and if it detects the intrusion or not.

Eventually the hacker will get the required 5 hits to your Firewall=5 threshold.. and he is in your commlink.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------



I am currently working on a document of my ideas on the new wireless web.. I will post it when it is done. (Of course, most of it will be obsolete when the new SR4 matrix sourcebook comes out in the new few months.)
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Cynic project
post Sep 8 2005, 08:30 PM
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QUOTE (NeoJudas)

Now let's get back to SR4 for a moment. We're looking at the WMI (the Wireless Matrix Initiative) being talked about in the "Shadows of " books (Asia, Europe and I presume the Latin America once it's on PDF).

Why do people always forget SoNA when they talk about this shit?

SoNA pg 158

"tsimshian citizens are constantly wired, wearing portable computers and connecting to the local net via wireless."
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Fortune
post Sep 8 2005, 09:11 PM
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QUOTE (Cynic project)
Why do people always forget SoNA when they talk about this shit?

... or DotSW. ;)
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kigmatzomat
post Sep 9 2005, 02:36 PM
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QUOTE (Mightyflapjack)
How is a firewall - 5 "god" ? System and Firewall don't even have an availability.. and a Rating 6 of either costs 3,000 nuyen. (Costs even less if you upgrade Novatech Nova OS to rating 6s).


There is an availability for Comm ratings. I still haven't got my book back from my brother yet but IIRC, a Response:5 system is the most available at chargen. Since Firewall >= System >= Response, a starting character can have nothing more than an effective firewall of 5.

And yeah, the availability is stuffed somewhere odd; I think it's either the last page of the gear or the last page of the Matrix section with the hardware upgrades.
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Eldritch
post Sep 9 2005, 03:20 PM
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QUOTE (Bull @ Sep 8 2005, 01:46 PM)
QUOTE (Ellery @ Sep 8 2005, 06:19 AM)
The megas certainly could force it through if they wanted, but where would the profit be in that?  They could force through lots of other more profitable things if they wanted, but they seem not to.

Why would they? Simple.

Corp A: "We're sorry Joe and Jane Citizen. But those nukes and the Matrix crash that happened? Screwed up our computer systems. We have to implement new ones."

Joe: "That's ok. We're mad we can't get our Matrix prOn for a while, but it'll be fine when you get things fixed."

Corp B: "Well, yeah, see. We're upgrading everything. And if you want your phones and everything else to work, you need to upgrade too."

Jane: "Upgrade? So you mean we have to..."

Corp C: *Evil Laugh* "Yes! YOu have to buy ALL your old shit over again, because it's now useless!"

Corp A-J: *Group evil laugh and the sound of cash registers opening"

Convince the public that they need to switch through marketing campaigns. Tell them their old systems aren't safe. Convince them that the new systems are 10 times better, 10 times faster, and oh look, even cheaper than the old ones!

And is EVERYTHING wireless? No. Hell, there are Wireless "Dead Zones" because tehre are some areas that haven't upgraded the local networks. And things like older cars and guns won;t necessarily be linked up either. But anything new, anything within the last 2-3 years at least will come like that standard.

Bull

Heh, this is how I feel about SR4 - Corps A-J = Fanpro, John and Jane citizen represent the fan base. :silly:
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NeoJudas
post Sep 9 2005, 03:37 PM
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QUOTE (Kagetenshi)
I've said it before, I'll say it again: firewalls only have a point if you are running services with vulnerabilities. I've got my firewall off right now and feel great about it.
Firewalls aren't just about protecting from known vulnerabilities. They are also there to serve as chokepoints and threshold monitoring.
QUOTE (Kagetenshi)
QUOTE
it is pretty clear that with the next technology being played with today that bandwidth is simply not going to become an issue with regards to broadcasting.

This is false. Well, it might be true, but the information we'll be able to transmit over that bandwidth will be sharply limited—too limited for anything like this to come into effect. I doubt we'll see those who own bandwidth relinquishing it, so that'll be limited as well.
Or maybe we'll see what we are already seeing now. Parsed/Regional Bandwidths based upon anything from strength, to frequency (the real issue) to the geographical region.
QUOTE (Kagetenshi)
QUOTE
(did anyone know that the cellphone tech being played within Nippon allows for streaming HD quality DVD-level feeds???)

Now try feeding different signals to any meaningful number of people. You aren't going to be able to, doubly so as the signal to any given person is noise to everyone else in the area.

They did multiple phones, multiple points, same bandwidth ranges overlapping. How the hell do you think we do stuff now? It's all part of the same broadcasting tech we're either already using or about to use. Hell, any WiFi hotspot worth it's salt can aerial broadcast several (dozens? hundreds?) gig to over a hundred (plus)people simultaneously.

Signal to Noise for EM Field purposes is finding new ways to work with what is there.
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NeoJudas
post Sep 9 2005, 03:50 PM
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QUOTE (Mightyflapjack)
NeoJudas wrote:

It has a built in Firewall of 5. As part of the PAN, the whole network is thus shielded behind that Firewall 5. This is something that I found extremely unusual given the whole new SR4 system. I found nothing that says I can't do it and everything that says I can. And thus I don't have to pay for anything more with regards to security (because a rating 5 Firewall in a basic/unmodified/no-house-rules SR4 game is damn near God).
---
How is a firewall - 5 "god" ?  System and Firewall don't even have an availability.. and a Rating 6 of either costs 3,000 nuyen. (Costs even less if you upgrade Novatech Nova OS to rating 6s).

But remember that hacking is now an extended test.. it is not a question of "IF" you can hack a system, but "when" and if it detects the intrusion or not.

Eventually the hacker will get the required 5 hits to your Firewall=5 threshold.. and he is in your commlink.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------



I am currently working on a document of my ideas on the new wireless web.. I will post it when it is done. (Of course, most of it will be obsolete when the new SR4 matrix sourcebook comes out in the new few months.)

Firewall 5 is God in the SR4 stuff because while certainly the new extended test rules are really a question of "when done", the other trick to it can easily become "when noticed". I don't know about anyone else, but the securities we have here can already now monitor for attempts and send up flags based upon IP addresses/ranges. I find it strange that SR4 tech wouldn't have this now. There are certain programs that can be loaded in the SR4 book now that can just be left "on" as it is. I'm sure there are others coming (or at least should be).

I am also saying "God" because of the Availability issue(s) for the betaware and I guess I'm also pointing out a potential flaw (errata material?) with regards to Device Ratings, Implants and Availability. That and the whole "hack cyberware" thing has me really questioning why anyone would make something that technologically is so obviously shoddy. (more below)

I agree that the uber-simplification has really created a scenario where many of the players have to "take something for granted in the name of fun" ... but it seems as if the game is created now in the image of only some peoples fun and not most peoples fun (note, I never "all peoples").

Here's my ultimate joke. Let's say MCT makes Cybersam Replacement Arm. MCT has broadcasting as part of it's regional WMI stuff ... the built in RFID/NID (NanoID) tag that is part of ALL their hardware. If something comes into the facility that is then picked up by the building (not by someone who's PAN is in Silent Mode) ... and the RFID/NID tag is not accompanying someone with a proper MCT passcode (that is part of the PAN or RFID combination), then the building itself is simultaneously broadcasting the order "shut down" the items in question.

No... this is one of those circumstances where either a) I really think the playtesting simply lacked some true thoroughness or b) It was decided to ignore this simply concept in lue of developer choice.

(shrugs)

and btw, if you're working on a document, put some speed into it, some real sincere quality, and work towards a submission to FANPRO. This way if you are serious and can make it happen, then maybe some good future potential can be derived from what you may have in mind.
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Jrayjoker
post Sep 9 2005, 04:10 PM
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Replying to Eldritch:

Meh, your POV is fine, but I don't think there is any malice.
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Kagetenshi
post Sep 9 2005, 05:05 PM
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QUOTE (NeoJudas)
Signal to Noise for EM Field purposes is finding new ways to work with what is there.

I'm really getting tired of saying this: Shannon's Law. The point at which there just isn't anything else there isn't all that high.

This is not some stumbling block that you find your way around. This is a theoretical limit on information transfer.

~J
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Smed
post Sep 9 2005, 05:36 PM
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QUOTE (Kagetenshi)

I'm really getting tired of saying this: Shannon's Law. The point at which there just isn't anything else there isn't all that high.

This is not some stumbling block that you find your way around. This is a theoretical limit on information transfer.

~J

Yep, there's a point where you can't get any more. Communication systems all make trade-offs between data rate, modulation bandwidth used, and signal level required for reception. New and improved modulation and error correction techniques solve a good many problems, but it reaches a point of rapidly diminishing returns. There are fundamental hard limits that come into play.

I don't have the new books yet, but from what I've heard , one thing that bothers me is Shadorun's assumptions that everything is wireless now. It takes much more bandwidth to send something over a wireless channel than a wired channel. The signal requires more error correction, multipath protection, protection from interference from other signals, or even just impulse noise protection. A wired system also has the advantage that you can run multiple cables or fibers with signals occupying the same bandwidth right next to each other without interference, effectively reusing the spectrum. With a wireless system you don't have the same capability for near infinite spectrum reuse.

Present day communications systems typically use wireless systems where neccessary, not for everything. There are some systems where is it makes more sense to run a wired netw0rk. Wireless systems are best left for applications where the transmitter and/or receiver have to be mobile. Spectrum is a resource just like everything else. It needs to be managed so that its used for the most efficient purposes. With the Shadowrun model of Wireless systems galore, the spectrum will get extremely crowded, making reception difficult anywhere.
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Autarkis
post Sep 9 2005, 05:40 PM
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You guys bring up a good point. The one thing I can't stand about SR4 is the fact that people can throw fireballs. I don't know anyone that can do it or at least to that capacity. :eek:

Sometimes the suspension of disbelief is useful and allows you to enjoy the game versus attempting to pigeon futuristic technologies and methodologies based on current day knowledge and perception.
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Kagetenshi
post Sep 9 2005, 06:03 PM
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I will stab you in the face.

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Rotbart van Dain...
post Sep 9 2005, 06:11 PM
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So you want to be rich & famous ? :wobble:
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Shadow
post Sep 9 2005, 07:05 PM
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QUOTE (Autarkis)
You guys bring up a good point. The one thing I can't stand about SR4 is the fact that people can throw fireballs. I don't know anyone that can do it or at least to that capacity. :eek:

Sometimes the suspension of disbelief is useful and allows you to enjoy the game versus attempting to pigeon futuristic technologies and methodologies based on current day knowledge and perception.

The thing is that magic is well magic! It is easy to wave your hand and say it works because its magic. It isn't based on anything real. But magic coming into play doesn't suddenly change the laws of physics for everything else. Cars still use fuel, planes still need wings to fly, guns still use propellant. And Radios still use Electromagnetic frequencies to communicate. They are still bound by real laws. Not made up ones.
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Dashifen
post Sep 9 2005, 07:21 PM
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True, but I'm willing to suspend disblief long enough to accept that in 65 years we might come up with a way to solve some of our current bandwidth, etc. problems and thus make a wireless world truely a reality, in a networking sense. And I'm a network engineering (well, that's what part of my job description says anyway).
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Kagetenshi
post Sep 9 2005, 08:03 PM
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QUOTE (Dashifen)
we might come up with a way to solve some of our current bandwidth, etc. problems

That's on the level of saying we might also come up with a way to solve the problem of Conservation of Energy.

~J
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FrankTrollman
post Sep 9 2005, 10:31 PM
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Shanon's Law allows for potentially infnite data transfer if noise levels are sufficiently low. Which is to say that if you could distinguish your signal from all others to an arbitrarily fine voltage, then you could send infinite information over miniscule bandwidth through the air as long as everyone was using different voltages.

Kagetenshin, I suspect, doesn't actually know what he's talking about and is just making a fuss because he wants Deckers to stay in the kitchen barefoot and pregnant and make food for him.

-Frank
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FrankTrollman
post Sep 9 2005, 10:31 PM
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Stupid Double Post.

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Kagetenshi
post Sep 10 2005, 05:54 AM
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QUOTE (FrankTrollman @ Sep 9 2005, 05:31 PM)
Shanon's Law allows for potentially infnite data transfer if noise levels are sufficiently low. Which is to say that if you could distinguish your signal from all others to an arbitrarily fine voltage, then you could send infinite information over miniscule bandwidth through the air as long as everyone was using different voltages.

That's… astoundingly ignorant. Your first statement is right, zero noise allows infinite transfer over finite bandwidth. Once you add in "all the others", you've got noise. Then add the noise that already exists—last I checked there are still power lines, electronic devices, etc.

~J
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Sabosect
post Sep 10 2005, 12:04 PM
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All of this is nice, but pointless. The real reason that SR4's wireless system won't work as intended has nothing to do with the technology involved. It has to do with magnetics.

Earth's magnetic field is, for some reason, variable. Variable enough that some areas are literally wireless deadzones, to where no matter what you do you cannot get a cell phone or similar technology to function properly. Hell, my house is one. You always have to step outside to use a cell phone or get messages to your beeper. Everything in the house is wired and connected to something because of that.

Now, keep in mind that's one house in the middle of the city. Also, keep in mind that these wireless deadzones can stretch for miles. And, even worse, is that there is nothing that can be done about it.

So, yeah, wired systems will still be available and there will still be new versions of them. There have to be, simply to cover those areas where wireless don't work.
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Sabosect
post Sep 10 2005, 12:04 PM
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Accidental double post.
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blakkie
post Sep 10 2005, 01:55 PM
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I thought there were SR4 rules for wireless dead zones?
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Bull
post Sep 10 2005, 02:27 PM
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There indeed are. I think the thing that's been forgotten in this is that the entire planet isn't wireless in SR. Large portions are, and most major cities are, but you'll be hard pressed to find a decent signal in the Barrens, for example.

Bull
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Rotbart van Dain...
post Sep 10 2005, 02:30 PM
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In SR4, at last... in SR3, there was always CSS. ;)
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kigmatzomat
post Sep 10 2005, 02:56 PM
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As I've suggested earlier, you can always cheat and say there's a freakish, incomprehensible trick that to utilize quantum entangling. Maybe it's just for data correction so that normal RF is treated as noiseless, maybe it is the media (although that would destroy the need of Signal rating). Regardless, there are semi-theoretical things that could cause near infinite bandwidth.

I don't hear any complaints from the masses that the processing power for a cyberdeck, which was greater than the processing power of a server cluster, has been eclipsed by a 200Y Comm. After all, we're rapidly approaching the point that circuitry is only a couple atoms wide. To increase performance will either require a massive shift in technological paradigm or a change in the way people understand the laws of physics.

Who says that the one doesn't enable the other?
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Grinder
post Sep 10 2005, 04:14 PM
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QUOTE (Bull)
There indeed are. I think the thing that's been forgotten in this is that the entire planet isn't wireless in SR. Large portions are, and most major cities are, but you'll be hard pressed to find a decent signal in the Barrens, for example.

Bull

As in most rural areas of Africa and Asia.
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Sabosect
post Sep 10 2005, 09:11 PM
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QUOTE (blakkie)
I thought there were SR4 rules for wireless dead zones?

The problem is the rules are ignoring a real problem that's increasingly cropping up. It's the same reason why wireless devices don't work in my house.

Part of the reason why the whole wireless world won't work is a simple case that electrical currents produce a small yield magnetic field. Your average modern house has enough of a magnetic field to show up on passive scans for magnetic activity. Fast forward to 2060 and you have a world where your average house should have a magnetic field equivolent to a small modern power plant. With 2070, the wireless world is only going to make these magnetic fields even stronger. What you have, in effect, is a simple case that all of these wireless devices should produce a magnetic field powerful enough to cancel them out. In other words, by 2071 people surfing the Matrix 2 should be facing the danger of dumpshock on a regular basis, and by 2075 the entire wireless system should collapse.

Now, you may stop and try to point out that these devices are likely protected against EM. Well, we already know from what happened in 2064-2065 that it doesn't work. Besides, the fields are not affecting the devices themselves, but the signals being sent out.

To get an idea, go to an area with extremely high voltage and try to use a cell phone today. Assuming you don't end partially electrocuted (depending on how close to the high voltage you are), you should notice the cell phone doesn't work. Now, with SR4, that high voltage area should be equivolent to your typical arcology, industrial area, etc.

Now, why did I ignore this for SR3? Because most items in it are wired, and the signals can be strengthened to account for that. However, with SR4, you have fields that are simply too strong to ignore. In order to get around them, you would have to alter the laws of physics or find some entirely new type of signal to use.
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Taki
post Sep 10 2005, 09:24 PM
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most of the visible Matrix 2 is wireless - still most of the Matrix 2 is hardwired.
Gateway, base station, matric infrastructure is composed of hard wires that are linked to end user by wireless networks.
I guess it counts for something.
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blakkie
post Sep 10 2005, 10:59 PM
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QUOTE
The problem is the rules are ignoring a real problem that's increasingly cropping up. It's the same reason why wireless devices don't work in my house.


A GM is free to drop down dead/static zones whereever.

QUOTE
Fast forward to 2060 and you have a world where your average house should have a magnetic field equivolent to a small modern power plant.


I'm curious what you base this increased amount on? Power consumption is likely to decrease, if anything, from current levels. The extra noise from all the processing power can be shielded.

QUOTE
Now, you may stop and try to point out that these devices are likely protected against EM. Well, we already know from what happened in 2064-2065 that it doesn't work. Besides, the fields are not affecting the devices themselves, but the signals being sent out.


As was explained, by DE or Synner, somewhere else on this board in the last week or so, they created surges on the power grid to trip breakers to start a cascade. The EM wasn't designed to harm the computer systems directly.
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Sabosect
post Sep 10 2005, 11:03 PM
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QUOTE (blakkie)
I'm curious what you base this increased amount on? Power consumption is likely to decrease, if anything, from current levels. The extra noise from all the processing power can be shielded.

The increased amount of equipment involved that needs power, as well as increased complexity of said equipment. Your typical 2060 house may have reduced the amount of power usage per item, but now it has more items.

QUOTE
As was explained, by DE or Synner, somewhere else on this board in the last week or so, they created surges on the power grid to trip breakers to start a cascade. The EM wasn't designed to harm the computer systems directly.


Which contradicts what I said in what way?
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NeoJudas
post Sep 11 2005, 02:34 AM
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QUOTE (Bull)
There indeed are.  I think the thing that's been forgotten in this is that the entire planet isn't wireless in SR.  Large portions are, and most major cities are, but you'll be hard pressed to find a decent signal in the Barrens, for example.

Bull

Bull, I've been reading your post and now I'm sorry to say that I really feel it is time to ask you double/triple read what you are saying here. Get past the text mechanic and into the background mechanics if you will.

While I agree that "Dead Zones" should probably exist, I do find it interesting that there are potentially very large areas (whole countries for instance) of the potential SR4 gameverse that not only a particular character type would find themselves ... "limited" it too light a word, how about "useless"? I mean, even in our games the mages when working in space found/worked their butts off to stay active, but now with the advent of DZ's not only are certain skill types rendered useless, but so are the core components to the technology a new SR4 character is reliant upon.

I'm sorry guy, but you're toting the party line a little much this time. I know in previous editions "Warps" and "Mana Dead Zones" existed, but at least things like "Filtering" and "Centering" were around (or came around) to get the mages back on their feet. A Tech DZ isn't something a character can work around so easily ... that's a societal/infrastructural limitation. If a character (Technomancer or just a guy/gal with gear) has that kind of capability as to work around those kinds of limitations then send 'em down here to our games. At least then the "Epic" caliber can fit in.

And yeah, I know people are going to say that "skill diversification will keep anyone from being useless". I'll cautiously then point out the cost (karmically) that such diversification now comes with.
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Bull
post Sep 11 2005, 03:49 AM
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I dunno. You're right, I'm spouting the party line, so to speak, mostly cause, well, not much else to say.

I think the idea is that a lot of the wireless networks are designed to be short ranged affairs... PAN's, for example, only extend out a few meters, thus you have to get relatively close to someone to hack their gear. Your PAN isn;t relying on a large wireless connection to operate, but you won't be able top connect to the gloabal matrix at large.

Everything else seems to work on the principal of small to medium sized overlapping "public" Area Networks. Basically imagine with a cell phone network that there are a lot more cell towers, each with a short receiver range, and each more or less "independant" but interconnected. The idea being that if some go down, service could still contiue mostly uninerupted.

So there are areas with poor signal, and areas with no signal, because these areas are either to remote, to hostile, or just deemed "not worthy" to have receivers planted around them.

<shrug> In all honestly, I still have a little trouble wrapping my brain around the concept of a wireless matrix. Especially as someone who played a wired decker for so long, as well as someone who in RL just recently got his first cell phone and only vaguely knows how real wireless computers work (and doesn't own/use one), it's a very foreign concept to me. And I also know that theoretically, what exists in SR isn't really possible, but... I'm not overly concerned with the "realism" aspect. I'm much more story-centric with my gaming.

I can tell you what I can about how things are set up to work in SR. And they make enough sense and work for me. Beyond that, YMMV. :)

Bull
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Bull
post Sep 11 2005, 04:02 AM
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Oh, right, I should also add this...

Lack of wireless does not necessarily invalidate a Hacker (and to a less extent, Technomancer). If a group is running in a dead zone, chances are they're doing so against a corp or something like that which will probably have it's own private wireless LAN. Plus, even in an area like the Barrens, you'll likely still be able to get a wired connection if youc an find a hook up. Wired VR and Datajacks are still useful, especially in these situations (Though with the Technomancers Resonance loss, they're less likely to have a data jack for full VR mode).

The wires aren't gone... Just not used as frequently or as dierectly anymore.

Bull
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Kagetenshi
post Sep 11 2005, 04:48 AM
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QUOTE (Bull @ Sep 10 2005, 10:49 PM)
<shrug>  In all honestly, I still have a little trouble wrapping my brain around the concept of a wireless matrix.  Especially as someone who played a wired decker for so long, as well as someone who in RL just recently got his first cell phone and only vaguely knows how real wireless computers work (and doesn't own/use one), it's a very foreign concept to me.  And I also know that theoretically, what exists in SR isn't really possible, but...  I'm not overly concerned with the "realism" aspect.  I'm much more story-centric with my gaming

With all due respect, I find it likely that your lack of knowledge in no small part generates your ability to trivially overlook this during play.

~J
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hyzmarca
post Sep 11 2005, 05:00 AM
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QUOTE (NeoJudas)
QUOTE (Bull)
There indeed are.  I think the thing that's been forgotten in this is that the entire planet isn't wireless in SR.  Large portions are, and most major cities are, but you'll be hard pressed to find a decent signal in the Barrens, for example.

Bull

Bull, I've been reading your post and now I'm sorry to say that I really feel it is time to ask you double/triple read what you are saying here. Get past the text mechanic and into the background mechanics if you will.

While I agree that "Dead Zones" should probably exist, I do find it interesting that there are potentially very large areas (whole countries for instance) of the potential SR4 gameverse that not only a particular character type would find themselves ... "limited" it too light a word, how about "useless"? I mean, even in our games the mages when working in space found/worked their butts off to stay active, but now with the advent of DZ's not only are certain skill types rendered useless, but so are the core components to the technology a new SR4 character is reliant upon.

That isn't the case at all. They'd just have to physically plug into the network. Technomancers may not appreciate the resonance loss from getting a datajack, but those who suck it up will be thankfull when they don'y have any wireless access.
Hackers should have datajacks.
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Crusher Bob
post Sep 11 2005, 05:37 AM
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Erm, shouldn't that just be: "the commlinks of hackers should have a cable allowing them to connect to wired netowrks?" You don't need a datajack to produce the simsense feed.
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Shadow
post Sep 11 2005, 06:01 AM
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Ok you guys do realize that 'wireless' is just how you get to a actual computer right? There is no 'wireless' computer floating in the electronic horizon... every image, dbase whatever is on a actual wired computer. The wireless is just the signal you use to get to the computer. Instead of pluging in an OC you now just turn on your wireless router.

PAN's (what a joke) have a broadcast range of a couple of feet. Theres probably a wireless antenna in the doors of buildings. You walk in, your PAN interfaces with the buildings computer and the computer in your coat receives all the info it needs.

So if there is a 'wireless dead zone' just use a wire. Or use a directional antenna and a focused beam to connect to the network you want.
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blakkie
post Sep 11 2005, 06:12 AM
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QUOTE (Sabosect @ Sep 10 2005, 05:03 PM)
QUOTE (blakkie @ Sep 10 2005, 05:59 PM)
I'm curious what you base this increased amount on?  Power consumption is likely to decrease, if anything, from current levels. The extra noise from all the processing power can be shielded.

The increased amount of equipment involved that needs power, as well as increased complexity of said equipment. Your typical 2060 house may have reduced the amount of power usage per item, but now it has more items.

But if this increased equipment has lower power consumption? All this new stuff you are talking about, how much of it do you expect to be clunking, mechanical in nature?

QUOTE
QUOTE
As was explained, by DE or Synner, somewhere else on this board in the last week or so, they created surges on the power grid to trip breakers to start a cascade. The EM wasn't designed to harm the computer systems directly.


Which contradicts what I said in what way?


Err, the control computation equipment was NOT affected by the pulse. Basically the EMP was a power surge done Tesla style. So the stuff Winternight did doesn't really enter into the picture in regards to equipment.
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blakkie
post Sep 11 2005, 06:15 AM
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QUOTE (Kagetenshi @ Sep 10 2005, 10:48 PM)
QUOTE (Bull @ Sep 10 2005, 10:49 PM)
<shrug>  In all honestly, I still have a little trouble wrapping my brain around the concept of a wireless matrix.  Especially as someone who played a wired decker for so long, as well as someone who in RL just recently got his first cell phone and only vaguely knows how real wireless computers work (and doesn't own/use one), it's a very foreign concept to me.  And I also know that theoretically, what exists in SR isn't really possible, but...  I'm not overly concerned with the "realism" aspect.  I'm much more story-centric with my gaming

With all due respect, I find it likely that your lack of knowledge in no small part generates your ability to trivially overlook this during play.

Certainly. It sure as hell helped in all past iterations of SR Matrix rules. :biggrin:
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Bull
post Sep 11 2005, 06:31 AM
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QUOTE (Kagetenshi)
With all due respect, I find it likely that your lack of knowledge in no small part generates your ability to trivially overlook this during play.

~J

Possibly, but I'm also just as likely to overlook something that I'm intimately knowledgable about as well. It's probably a personal style thing... I was just talking to AH about this, actually. I'm very story oriented. As long as the world has a base logic to it and I can tell a good story, I'm not concerned with the little background details.

In this case probably just a matter of different gaming styles.

QUOTE
Erm, shouldn't that just be: "the commlinks of hackers should have a cable allowing them to connect to wired netowrks?" You don't need a datajack to produce the simsense feed.


Yeah, I know. I'm just used to saying Datajacks because of the "played a decker forever" thing. About 50% of the time while posting I have to stop and delete "deck-" and replace it with 'Hack-' :]

You do still need some sort of hardware to view the full simsense as a Technomancer, IIRC. There's a limit to how deep they can go into the VR, I think. But I'm not 100% positive. I'll have to look that up when I get home.

Bull
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fistandantilus4....
post Sep 11 2005, 06:34 AM
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as far as power, remember that a lot of items now-days are using less power due to more efficient design. This trend would likely continue. Yes, there will be more electronics in use. But do you really think that more robot vacuums are going to make that much difference. Maybe I'm being deliberately dense, but I jsut dont' see it.
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Sabosect
post Sep 11 2005, 07:21 AM
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QUOTE (blakkie)
But if this increased equipment has lower power consumption? All this new stuff you are talking about, how much of it do you expect to be clunking, mechanical in nature?

Very, very little. Less of a percentage than the modern home, really. Still doesn't change that more of it would have probably the same amount of power usage, but more wires and electrical fields to generate EM fields.

QUOTE
Err, the control computation equipment was NOT affected by the pulse. Basically the EMP was a power surge done Tesla style. So the stuff Winternight did doesn't really enter into the picture in regards to equipment.


Which really doesn't contradict what I said about it not working. The idea of the EMP protection was to protect the equipment itself from damage caused by an EMP. They never bothered to consider protecting certain items, thus allowing the devices to be indirectly damaged by EMPs.
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blakkie
post Sep 11 2005, 07:42 AM
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QUOTE (Sabosect)
QUOTE (blakkie @ Sep 11 2005, 01:12 AM)
But if this increased equipment has lower power consumption?  All this new stuff you are talking about, how much of it do you expect to be clunking, mechanical in nature?

Very, very little. Less of a percentage than the modern home, really. Still doesn't change that more of it would have probably the same amount of power usage, but more wires and electrical fields to generate EM fields.

Thus my comment about shielding.


QUOTE

QUOTE
Err, the control computation equipment was NOT affected by the pulse. Basically the EMP was a power surge done Tesla style. So the stuff Winternight did doesn't really enter into the picture in regards to equipment.


Which really doesn't contradict what I said about it not working. The idea of the EMP protection was to protect the equipment itself from damage caused by an EMP. They never bothered to consider protecting certain items, thus allowing the devices to be indirectly damaged by EMPs.


:( Umm, you are glossing over the part about 10's of orders of magnitude difference in EMF generated between those nukes and a freakin' door bell, and that the nuke's indirect path of effect is not applicable to this subject.
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Sabosect
post Sep 12 2005, 06:42 AM
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QUOTE (blakkie)
Thus my comment about shielding.

Unless you're shielding all of that stuff from emitting those, the shielding doesn't matter. I'm looking at how it affects the transmitted signals, not the equipment.

QUOTE
:(  Umm, you are glossing over the part about 10's of orders of magnitude difference in EMF generated between those nukes and a freakin' door bell, and that the nuke's indirect path of effect is not applicable to this subject.


Actually, it's very applicable, as indirect path of effect is entirely my point. I'm not looking at the devices themselves being affected by these EMFs. Hell, the modern cell phone isn't damaged by them, so I know for damned sure stuff in 2070 won't be. But, I am looking at how it affects the signals transmitted, which is an indirect effect on the equipment itself. If the smartgun equipment in your gun and contact lenses cannot talk to each other because of signal interference, it doesn't matter if both are undamaged.
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sapphire_wyvern
post Sep 12 2005, 01:26 PM
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QUOTE (hyzmarca)
QUOTE (NeoJudas @ Sep 10 2005, 09:34 PM)
QUOTE (Bull)
There indeed are.  I think the thing that's been forgotten in this is that the entire planet isn't wireless in SR.  Large portions are, and most major cities are, but you'll be hard pressed to find a decent signal in the Barrens, for example.

Bull

Bull, I've been reading your post and now I'm sorry to say that I really feel it is time to ask you double/triple read what you are saying here. Get past the text mechanic and into the background mechanics if you will.

While I agree that "Dead Zones" should probably exist, I do find it interesting that there are potentially very large areas (whole countries for instance) of the potential SR4 gameverse that not only a particular character type would find themselves ... "limited" it too light a word, how about "useless"? I mean, even in our games the mages when working in space found/worked their butts off to stay active, but now with the advent of DZ's not only are certain skill types rendered useless, but so are the core components to the technology a new SR4 character is reliant upon.

That isn't the case at all. They'd just have to physically plug into the network. Technomancers may not appreciate the resonance loss from getting a datajack, but those who suck it up will be thankfull when they don'y have any wireless access.
Hackers should have datajacks.

Couldn't you just, y'know, plug a device into the wired terminal that creates a short-range wireless network? That you could then interface with normally?

Basically just carry your AirPort or wireless server with you... I know that my wireless Access Point on my desk is darn near small enough to fit in my pocket.

For what it's worth, I also make a small modification to the game canon: I assume that Wireless interfaces are ubiquitous, but most bulk and/or long distance data transfer actually travels through a wired infrastructure that isn't visible to the end user, in much the same way that mobile phones work. You can use your interface anywhere, but traffic within a network still travels through fiber spaghetti in my world.

It makes precisely 0% difference to the way that people interact with the Matrix, whilst simultaneously solving near 100% of the technological impossibility! I recommend you try it!
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