IPB

Welcome Guest ( Log In | Register )

> SR through a GURPS glass, Thoughts on SR from a GURPS point of view
MaxMahem
post Nov 21 2008, 05:16 AM
Post #1


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 393
Joined: 23-December 05
From: Texarkana, TX
Member No.: 8,097



I've have always loved the setting material in the GURPS books. The rules, no so much, but I think (and continue to think) that GURPS has some of the best stuff when it comes to defining a setting. Which is probably while although I have never run a GURPS game, I have a shelf full of their books, more as reference items. I was looking through the new GURPS 4e Ultra-Tech book and ways in which stuff in it might be applied to SR came to mind. These are some of those thoughts.

Firstly, in GURPS 4e terms, SR tech level is solidly TL9 with many TL10 elements representing the cutting edge of SR tech. Of course given the inequalities present in the SR setting, many of the poor, and SINless people still relying up TL8 stuff. The only super science elements present are mono-wires and neural induction. The important take away point from this is that virtually any TL10 device could be incoporated into your game if you wish. Virtualy all of it is in reach of SR tech, it just may not have been developed yet because of cost or lack of demand. But you certianly still could introduce it, at maybe 10 or 100 times the listed cost in GURPS. The key difference in SR and many other TL9-10 societies is that space in SR has not been developed to a great degree.

Thoughts on individual items of tech
Power Generation: Power in SR relies mostly on Fission and Fusion generators. More portable examples of each are probable examples of each are probably possible, but are not widely used because of security concurs. A portable fission or fusion reactor falling into the wrong hands would make a great run idea though. Solar Power is in wide use most likely, but in most of the megaplexes it is limited by smog and pollution. The NAN may use it more intensively. Solar Power Sats are probably possible, but remain mostly undeveloped (they would fit right in if you wanted to throw some in though). In the heavily urbanised setting of SR, Beamed Power (while possible) probably does not come into play very much.

Power Storage:It's not clear what powers the more energy intensive TL10 devices like the new Ares Lasers. Most other devices are powered either by fuel cells or more advanced chemical batteries. Most SR tech isn't that energy intensive so TL9 power cells still work well.

Computers: Computing in SR is solidly TL10. Commlinks are generally TL10 Small computers, while older cyberdecks were probably TL9 Personal computers (possibly compact). Genius computers are common as well. Virtually every item in SR has a Tiny computer built in. AI is a software based phenomenon. AR, VR, and 'Sensies' are all well developed. Uploading is not currently possible. Well at least not on-purpose. But a large number of cases happened during Crash 2.0.

Cybernetics: Also solidly TL10. New to SR4 is more widespread and efficient Total Conversion Cyborgs and Brains in a Jar.

Nanotechnology: Also TL10, though not very wide-spread as of yet. Outside of the human body, only microbots are possible, which are very small robots, but not truly nano-tech. Inside the body a variety of semi-organic nano-tech devices are possible. All TL10 swarm types are probably possible, though not all have currently been made. Gastrobots are also unavailable. Nanofacturing is possible (A TL11 development) but is of such limited utility it might as well be considered an advnaced form of TL10 manufacturing.

Sensors & Communication: All TL10 devices are possible, though not all are in wide deployment.

Weaponry: Shadowrun's approach to weaponry is concervative. Conventional fire-arms remain the dominate weapon, probably because of their continued cheapness and utility. TL10 lasers are slowly working their way to market, while hand held particle weapons remain undeveloped, power-cell tech is probably the limiting factor here. Electrolasers are possible, but have apparently been passed over in favor of sonic stunners and more conventional stun weapons. Likewise, guass weapons are slowly working their way to market.

A couple advancedments in small arms remain un-persued but possible.In particularl electro-thermal and liquid propellant. We should expect to see these in at least some SR firearms, but apparently they have been overlooked. Perhapce they have been to cost prohibitive. Gyrocs are in existance, with the potential for (very expensive) homeing rounds.

Armor: It's hard to put a TL on SR armor. I would guess that it is mostly TL9 with advanced polymers and ceramics, but with some TL10 materials in use in parts.

Anyways, just some of my thoughts on SR vis a v GURPS 4E.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
 
Start new topic
Replies
Ancient History
post Nov 21 2008, 04:53 PM
Post #2


Great Dragon
*********

Group: Members
Posts: 6,748
Joined: 5-July 02
Member No.: 2,935



When I die, I will become master of a corner of that dark place and build my own private hell for those who mix Shadowrun and GURPS.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
KCKitsune
post Nov 21 2008, 10:27 PM
Post #3


Neophyte Runner
*****

Group: Members
Posts: 2,188
Joined: 9-February 08
From: Boiling Springs
Member No.: 15,665



QUOTE (Ancient History @ Nov 21 2008, 11:53 AM) *
When I die, I will become master of a corner of that dark place and build my own private hell for those who mix Shadowrun and GURPS.



(IMG:style_emoticons/default/ohplease.gif) AH, are you not taking this a little too seriously? I mean come on, it's a GAME! It's one thing that I disliked about Catalyst. "D20 causes cancer", what kind of childish asinine comment is that? Nothing professional I can tell you that.

Let's face it, Catalyst and Shadowrun, while great game publishing company and a great game respectively don't hold a candle to the monster that is Wizards of the Coast in regards to sales and knowledge of the D&D game. Almost everybody knows about D&D, Shadowrun... not so much.

If I want to take the information and fluff from Shadowrun and use it in any of my personal d20 (or GURPS, Rifts, or whatever) game, then it's my choice and if I want to share that with people here, then that's my choice as well. Saying what you said sounds... stupid. If you were trying to be funny then you should have used an emoticon showing that you were just joking.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Adam
post Nov 21 2008, 11:28 PM
Post #4


Prime Runner
*******

Group: Retired Admins
Posts: 3,929
Joined: 26-February 02
From: .ca
Member No.: 51



QUOTE (KCKitsune @ Nov 21 2008, 05:27 PM) *
It's one thing that I disliked about Catalyst. "D20 causes cancer", what kind of childish asinine comment is that? Nothing professional I can tell you that.

While I don't share Ancient History's opinions about Shadowrun GURPS, it is my professional opinion as someone who's been working fulltime in the game industry since 2002 that the huge proliferation of 20 System products -- many of which were "shovelware" -- did indeed do a lot of long-time harm to the business end of RPGs, harm that is still being felt by all three tiers [retailers, distributors, manufacturers.]

And, I'll also point out that Ancient History is _not_ a Catalyst Game Labs employee; his opinions are his own, and the company and the individuals at the company don't necessarily agree with him.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
KCKitsune
post Nov 22 2008, 12:57 AM
Post #5


Neophyte Runner
*****

Group: Members
Posts: 2,188
Joined: 9-February 08
From: Boiling Springs
Member No.: 15,665



QUOTE (Adam @ Nov 21 2008, 06:28 PM) *
While I don't share Ancient History's opinions about Shadowrun GURPS, it is my professional opinion as someone who's been working fulltime in the game industry since 2002 that the huge proliferation of 20 System products -- many of which were "shovelware" -- did indeed do a lot of long-time harm to the business end of RPGs, harm that is still being felt by all three tiers [retailers, distributors, manufacturers.]


Can you give me some links so I can see this for myself? I know, with the economy going into the crapper, that people are going to be a LOT less likely to shell out money for games, but I didn't know that WoC harmed the game market.

QUOTE (Adam @ Nov 21 2008, 06:28 PM) *
And, I'll also point out that Ancient History is _not_ a Catalyst Game Labs employee; his opinions are his own, and the company and the individuals at the company don't necessarily agree with him.


My statement about unprofessionalism stems from Catalyst's statement that d20 causes cancer. That was all you and not AH. You could have said that Catalyst had absolutely no plans for making a d20 version. That sounds a little more professional.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Adam
post Nov 22 2008, 01:53 AM
Post #6


Prime Runner
*******

Group: Retired Admins
Posts: 3,929
Joined: 26-February 02
From: .ca
Member No.: 51



QUOTE (KCKitsune @ Nov 21 2008, 08:57 PM) *
Can you give me some links so I can see this for myself? I know, with the economy going into the crapper, that people are going to be a LOT less likely to shell out money for games, but I didn't know that WoC harmed the game market.


This doesn't relate to the current economy; I'm talking about a situation that began in 2000 with the release of the d20 System and the d20 System License. The sheer volume of titles released over the 3-4 years, up until it slowed in 2003-2004, ended up hurting the RPG industry in multiple ways:

* For a period of time, distributors and retailers scaled back on ordering non-d20 products, while often over-ordering d20 products. Distributors, especially, failed to act as "gatekeepers," making short-term money over long-term health.

* Many companies sprung up producing d20 products as quickly as possible, with little regard for quality. Initial orders from distributors were great, and sales were initially great -- until people realized that a lot of the stuff wasn't that good, and there was simply too much of it, and too many products trying to do the same thing as others -- so subsequent products ended up massively overprinted and still to this day sit on store shelves, in the warehouses of distributors and manufacturers, or they were pulped.

* To combat those problems, distributors then sharply pulled back from pre-ordering, even from established companies with strong brands. [when pre-order numbers are no longer a good gauge of overall demand, determining print run size becomes more and more of a guessing game.]

* Stuck with tons of stock they couldn't move, and compounded by a doldrums in the collectible game market in 2001-2004ish, a large number of game stores went out of business.

Next time you're in a gaming store, take a look at the shelf where they keep stuff that's been around for awhile, but hasn't sold, the game is no longer being made, the company is out of business, etc. Most stores have a shelf -- or several -- like this. Mentally total up the price of all those books, then divide it by half. That's, roughly, how much money the retailer has paid for those books.

* Several fulfillment houses [companies that help manufacturers sell and market to distributors and stores] went out of business, often owing money to publishers or creating situations where publishers had to *pay* to get back their stock. [One such fulfillment house was Fast Forward Entertainment, who at the time, handled distribution for FanPro. They went out of business leaving a large unpaid to FanPro. Another was Osseum, who disappeared overnight, leaving the rent on their warehouse unpaid and bills to game companies unpaid -- these very same game companies had to pay the warehouse to retrieve the books that the companies already owned!]

* While many, many print publishers started making d20 products or were formed just to make d20 products in the early part of the decade, fewer than a handful of them were still making d20 products by 2005. Most of the new companies disappeared, some of them stuck around producing OGL stuff or branching out into other facets of gaming [Most notably: Green Ronin and Mongoose Publishing].

* Once the d20 tidal wave of products slowed down, neither distributors or stores returned to strongly ordering or stocking most RPGs, some of them only stocking core D&D stuff heavily. This led to more and more gamers buying directly from the publisher, or from Amazon, further weakening local stores and the distribution chain.

Naturally, not all of these problems are 100% "caused by the d20 'boom'" -- but in every case it impacted those situations or started the ball rolling on them. Some people -- at all levels of the industry -- made good money in the early days of d20, and then the middle days of d20 ate it all.

QUOTE
My statement about unprofessionalism stems from Catalyst's statement that d20 causes cancer. That was all you and not AH. You could have said that Catalyst had absolutely no plans for making a d20 version. That sounds a little more professional.


And I'll stand by saying it [even though I wasn't the one that said it originally, but I'm pretty sure I was the one that cut-and-pasted it into the Catalyst FAQ and made the decision to keep it]. I played enough d20 and worked at a publisher that did d20 stuff, and I've seen the effects of it on their business and the business as a whole. It produced some truly great products and a whole pile of average and sub-par ones, but it also heavily contributed to damaging the RPG industry as a whole.

I make games about professional criminals; giant robots; and photographers trying to get panty shots of celebrities. I'm not afraid of a little irreverence, and most of the fan base reacts positively to it.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Cabral
post Nov 23 2008, 11:15 PM
Post #7


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 734
Joined: 30-August 05
Member No.: 7,646



QUOTE (Adam @ Nov 21 2008, 09:53 PM) *
I make games about professional criminals; giant robots; and photographers trying to get panty shots of celebrities. I'm not afraid of a little irreverence, and most of the fan base reacts positively to it.

O.o ... Giant Robots, I suspect is the Anime d20 ... Is the candid photography reference to your Paparazzi! game or is Shadowbeat finally coming back? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

...


Well one can hope ...
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post

Posts in this topic
- MaxMahem   SR through a GURPS glass   Nov 21 2008, 05:16 AM
- - KCKitsune   I never played GURPS, but like any "crossover...   Nov 21 2008, 07:09 AM
- - knasser   I've never played GURPS and I'm not famili...   Nov 21 2008, 07:43 AM
- - kzt   Power sats are very extensively used. It created ...   Nov 21 2008, 08:00 AM
- - Synner667   I remember downloading a set of GURPS notes that s...   Nov 21 2008, 09:57 AM
- - BookWyrm   You'd have to find the books GURPS Cyberpunk, ...   Nov 21 2008, 04:49 PM
|- - MaxMahem   QUOTE (BookWyrm @ Nov 21 2008, 12:49 PM) ...   Nov 22 2008, 04:56 PM
- - Ancient History   When I die, I will become master of a corner of th...   Nov 21 2008, 04:53 PM
|- - vapor   QUOTE (Ancient History @ Nov 21 2008, 11...   Nov 21 2008, 06:46 PM
||- - Dashifen   QUOTE (vapor @ Nov 21 2008, 12:46 PM) Mad...   Nov 21 2008, 09:12 PM
|- - KCKitsune   QUOTE (Ancient History @ Nov 21 2008, 11...   Nov 21 2008, 10:27 PM
|- - Ancient History   QUOTE (KCKitsune @ Nov 21 2008, 11:27 PM)...   Nov 21 2008, 11:08 PM
||- - Cain   [Damn it, how many posts did this thing make?...   Nov 22 2008, 05:12 AM
||- - Cain   [Double Post, Sorry]   Nov 22 2008, 05:12 AM
||- - Cain   QUOTE (Ancient History @ Nov 21 2008, 03...   Nov 22 2008, 05:13 AM
||- - knasser   QUOTE (Cain @ Nov 22 2008, 05:13 AM) Love...   Nov 22 2008, 09:26 AM
||- - KCKitsune   QUOTE (knasser @ Nov 22 2008, 04:26 AM) A...   Nov 22 2008, 11:00 AM
|||- - knasser   QUOTE (KCKitsune @ Nov 22 2008, 11:00 AM)...   Nov 22 2008, 12:01 PM
|||- - KCKitsune   QUOTE (knasser @ Nov 22 2008, 07:01 AM) I...   Nov 22 2008, 12:49 PM
|||- - Adam   QUOTE (knasser @ Nov 22 2008, 08:01 AM) I...   Nov 23 2008, 12:56 AM
||- - Cain   QUOTE (knasser @ Nov 22 2008, 01:26 AM) I...   Nov 22 2008, 03:42 PM
|- - Adam   QUOTE (KCKitsune @ Nov 21 2008, 05:27 PM)...   Nov 21 2008, 11:28 PM
||- - KCKitsune   QUOTE (Adam @ Nov 21 2008, 06:28 PM) Whil...   Nov 22 2008, 12:57 AM
||- - Adam   QUOTE (KCKitsune @ Nov 21 2008, 08:57 PM)...   Nov 22 2008, 01:53 AM
||- - Cabral   QUOTE (Adam @ Nov 21 2008, 09:53 PM) I ma...   Nov 23 2008, 11:15 PM
|- - vapor   QUOTE (KCKitsune @ Nov 21 2008, 05:27 PM)...   Nov 21 2008, 11:48 PM
|- - Wounded Ronin   QUOTE (vapor @ Nov 21 2008, 06:48 PM) D...   Nov 22 2008, 04:15 PM
- - Ed_209a   I think most bad GURPS experiences are caused by G...   Nov 21 2008, 05:08 PM
- - Matsci   After all it's not like d20 ever ripped of Sha...   Nov 21 2008, 10:36 PM
|- - KCKitsune   QUOTE (Matsci @ Nov 21 2008, 05:36 PM) Af...   Nov 21 2008, 10:54 PM
- - D Minor   Well...... I don't want to Adam in a Dark Ally...   Nov 22 2008, 02:33 AM
|- - KCKitsune   QUOTE (D Minor @ Nov 21 2008, 09:33 PM) W...   Nov 22 2008, 03:18 AM
- - Ancient History   "And here you will stay, Gandalf the Grey, an...   Nov 22 2008, 05:25 AM
|- - Wounded Ronin   QUOTE (Ancient History @ Nov 22 2008, 12...   Nov 22 2008, 04:26 PM
- - Adam   Now now... gotta gives props to Ghostbusters [1986...   Nov 22 2008, 05:50 AM
|- - Cain   QUOTE (Adam @ Nov 21 2008, 09:50 PM) Now ...   Nov 22 2008, 06:31 AM
- - Chrysalis   The first game I ever played was the red box of D...   Nov 22 2008, 09:30 AM
|- - Rasumichin   QUOTE (Chrysalis @ Nov 22 2008, 10:30 AM)...   Nov 23 2008, 09:20 AM
- - Fortune   You'll note that it does not say 'WotC cau...   Nov 22 2008, 02:03 PM
- - Rad   Wow, I think I know where our GM got the idea for ...   Nov 22 2008, 03:36 PM
- - MaxMahem   Wow... all of this talk... and it kind of strayed ...   Nov 22 2008, 04:55 PM
|- - Rasumichin   Dang, that's steep... @ MaxMahem : that suit...   Nov 23 2008, 10:17 AM
|- - MaxMahem   QUOTE (Rasumichin @ Nov 23 2008, 06:17 AM...   Nov 24 2008, 02:42 AM
|- - Rasumichin   QUOTE (MaxMahem @ Nov 24 2008, 03:42 AM) ...   Nov 24 2008, 07:19 PM
- - BookWyrm   I'd have to get all 3 GURPS Cyberpunk books fo...   Nov 22 2008, 09:02 PM
- - Wounded Ronin   I wanted to play GURPS for years, thinking it trul...   Nov 22 2008, 11:31 PM
- - kzt   I always liked the bumper sticker that went someth...   Nov 23 2008, 02:38 AM
- - Chrysalis   Rasumichin: The FLGS sells the BBB at 45.00 (I t...   Nov 23 2008, 10:06 AM
|- - BullZeye   QUOTE (Chrysalis @ Nov 23 2008, 12:06 PM)...   Nov 24 2008, 11:55 AM
- - Adam   Giant Robots... BattleTech, maybe? And please, t...   Nov 23 2008, 11:27 PM
- - ornot   The book I bought most recently was Runner Compani...   Nov 24 2008, 02:04 PM
- - Grinder   Don't the scandinavian countries have a high s...   Nov 24 2008, 06:14 PM
- - BullZeye   QUOTE (Grinder @ Nov 24 2008, 08:14 PM) D...   Nov 24 2008, 06:52 PM
- - Chrysalis   QUOTE (BullZeye @ Nov 24 2008, 08:52 PM) ...   Nov 24 2008, 10:38 PM


Reply to this topicStart new topic

 

RSS Lo-Fi Version Time is now: 17th February 2025 - 05:16 AM

Topps, Inc has sole ownership of the names, logo, artwork, marks, photographs, sounds, audio, video and/or any proprietary material used in connection with the game Shadowrun. Topps, Inc has granted permission to the Dumpshock Forums to use such names, logos, artwork, marks and/or any proprietary materials for promotional and informational purposes on its website but does not endorse, and is not affiliated with the Dumpshock Forums in any official capacity whatsoever.