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Omenowl
post Mar 1 2010, 04:33 PM
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Pick the most obscene character build using the 400bp and see how with equivalent karma build.

Negative qualities must be balanced with equal number of positive.
No more than 20 points in contacts
Usual limits for the build
All metatypes/races acceptable
5x attribute cost

Good luck
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Karoline
post Mar 2 2010, 03:45 PM
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Just for fun, I grabbed one of my own characters I'd made with BP and converted it to Karma.

[ Spoiler ]


So, as you can see, despite the fact that she has several 5s in her stats, a skill at 6, and alot of skills at 4, and even paying for the knowledge skills, she comes out almost 100 karma cheaper. I think you're going to see this for any human. Like I keep saying, only in extreme examples and cases of maxing out a troll do you really run into BP being better.
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toturi
post Mar 3 2010, 01:30 AM
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QUOTE (Karoline @ Mar 2 2010, 11:45 PM) *
Just for fun, I grabbed one of my own characters I'd made with BP and converted it to Karma.

So, as you can see, despite the fact that she has several 5s in her stats, a skill at 6, and alot of skills at 4, and even paying for the knowledge skills, she comes out almost 100 karma cheaper. I think you're going to see this for any human. Like I keep saying, only in extreme examples and cases of maxing out a troll do you really run into BP being better.

Except for the fact that BP is precisely for builds with such specialised performance, nobody denies that Karmagen is better for generalist builds.
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Karoline
post Mar 3 2010, 01:35 AM
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QUOTE (toturi @ Mar 2 2010, 08:30 PM) *
Except for the fact that BP is precisely for builds with such specialised performance, nobody denies that Karmagen is better for generalist builds.


My character with virtually nothing but maxed out skills/stats is a generalist? My character, who is a sniper specialist, is a generalist? I should also point out that under karmagen she would be even more specialized because she would have gotten the sniper rifle specialty, as well as several others, thus karmagen would have made her more specialized and less generalized.

Like I keep saying, BP is good at making trolls with maxed out body and strength, and that is about it, otherwise Karmagen is likely to give you the same character for a smaller price.
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toturi
post Mar 3 2010, 08:11 AM
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QUOTE (Karoline @ Mar 3 2010, 09:35 AM) *
My character with virtually nothing but maxed out skills/stats is a generalist? My character, who is a sniper specialist, is a generalist? I should also point out that under karmagen she would be even more specialized because she would have gotten the sniper rifle specialty, as well as several others, thus karmagen would have made her more specialized and less generalized.

Like I keep saying, BP is good at making trolls with maxed out body and strength, and that is about it, otherwise Karmagen is likely to give you the same character for a smaller price.

Edge, Will and Reaction aren't soft-maxed, with points allocated to Strength and Cha.

However, I would admit it seems that karmagen remains the powergame build system of choice. Interesting.
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Karoline
post Mar 3 2010, 01:18 PM
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QUOTE (toturi @ Mar 3 2010, 03:11 AM) *
Edge, Will and Reaction aren't soft-maxed, with points allocated to Strength and Cha.

However, I would admit it seems that karmagen remains the powergame build system of choice. Interesting.


Okay, there is a difference between specialist, and min/maxed munchkin. And soft maxed edge isn't needed for either of those. Only thing a soft maxed edge does is push a build slightly in favor of the BP system.
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toturi
post Mar 3 2010, 03:43 PM
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QUOTE (Karoline @ Mar 3 2010, 09:18 PM) *
Okay, there is a difference between specialist, and min/maxed munchkin. And soft maxed edge isn't needed for either of those. Only thing a soft maxed edge does is push a build slightly in favor of the BP system.

Yes, there is a difference, but what I mentioned is not that. A min-maxed specialist is not a munchkin. A munchkin breaks the rules, a min-maxed character stays within the rules. A soft maxed edge helps to confirm the shot.
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Karoline
post Mar 3 2010, 03:51 PM
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QUOTE (toturi @ Mar 3 2010, 10:43 AM) *
Yes, there is a difference, but what I mentioned is not that. A min-maxed specialist is not a munchkin. A munchkin breaks the rules, a min-maxed character stays within the rules. A soft maxed edge helps to confirm the shot.


I consider having nothing but 1s and 5s to be munchkin. I also don't see any reason for edge for a sniper. The character has something like 16 dice to shoot, and the target won't even get a chance to defend themselves. I hardly think any extra dice are needed to 'confirm the shot', and 1 edge is as good as 20 for rerolling if you totally botch a shot.

Like I said, what you're saying isn't anything to do with character effectiveness, it is entirely to do with costing as much karma as possible.

As I keep saying, unless you go out of your way you're going to get a better/cheaper character out of karmagen.
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toturi
post Mar 3 2010, 11:27 PM
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QUOTE (Karoline @ Mar 3 2010, 11:51 PM) *
I consider having nothing but 1s and 5s to be munchkin. I also don't see any reason for edge for a sniper. The character has something like 16 dice to shoot, and the target won't even get a chance to defend themselves. I hardly think any extra dice are needed to 'confirm the shot', and 1 edge is as good as 20 for rerolling if you totally botch a shot.

Like I said, what you're saying isn't anything to do with character effectiveness, it is entirely to do with costing as much karma as possible.

As I keep saying, unless you go out of your way you're going to get a better/cheaper character out of karmagen.

I consider having nothing but 1s and 5s to be good and effective character building under BP. The effect of which happens to cost as much karma as possible. Your character's Edge is neither here nor there, as you said, 1 Edge is as good as 20 for rerolls, therefore either leave it at 2 or max it out.

Having 1s and 5s is not going out of my way, it is within acceptable chargen limits and is standard operating procedure for using BP as far as I am concerned.
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Karoline
post Mar 4 2010, 01:33 AM
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QUOTE (toturi @ Mar 3 2010, 06:27 PM) *
I consider having nothing but 1s and 5s to be good and effective character building under BP. The effect of which happens to cost as much karma as possible. Your character's Edge is neither here nor there, as you said, 1 Edge is as good as 20 for rerolls, therefore either leave it at 2 or max it out.

Having 1s and 5s is not going out of my way, it is within acceptable chargen limits and is standard operating procedure for using BP as far as I am concerned.


Really? Because I don't think I've ever seen a GM that will accept a 1s/5s character, but maybe that is just chance on my part. Besides, that is another artifice of the BP system, it doesn't say anything to the effectiveness of the character. A character with a good selection of 2s in their skills is better than a character with nothing but 4s in a very few skills, but BP hugely supports the latter because of the changeoff between karma purchases after the game starts and BP purchases beforehand. I like the fact that karmagen eliminates that along with all the other things about it.

Hmm, sounds like technomancer might get the short end of the stick in Karmagen, as if they need a shorter end.
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Posts in this topic
- Omenowl   Max out the BP system   Mar 1 2010, 04:33 PM
- - Draco18s   Easy. Pick a metavariant troll, max his strength ...   Mar 1 2010, 05:03 PM
- - Omenowl   ok so what does it come out as the karma equivalen...   Mar 1 2010, 06:35 PM
- - Saint Sithney   I got 995 karma. Pick a troll mage. 55 BP -> 1...   Mar 1 2010, 06:36 PM
- - Omenowl   Qualities should not factor into the equation. Th...   Mar 1 2010, 07:06 PM
|- - Karoline   QUOTE (Omenowl @ Mar 1 2010, 02:06 PM) Qu...   Mar 1 2010, 07:08 PM
|- - Sponge   QUOTE (Karoline @ Mar 1 2010, 02:08 PM) K...   Mar 1 2010, 07:31 PM
|- - Shinobi Killfist   QUOTE (Sponge @ Mar 1 2010, 03:31 PM) Is ...   Mar 1 2010, 07:45 PM
|- - Karoline   QUOTE (Sponge @ Mar 1 2010, 02:31 PM) Is ...   Mar 1 2010, 07:54 PM
|- - Saint Sithney   QUOTE (Karoline @ Mar 1 2010, 11:54 AM) I...   Mar 1 2010, 08:11 PM
|- - Karoline   QUOTE (Saint Sithney @ Mar 1 2010, 03:11 ...   Mar 1 2010, 08:19 PM
- - Saint Sithney   Metavariants, like Formori, cost 2XBP in karma. Ce...   Mar 1 2010, 07:43 PM
|- - Squinky   QUOTE (Saint Sithney @ Mar 1 2010, 02:43 ...   Mar 2 2010, 03:07 AM
|- - Draco18s   QUOTE (Squinky @ Mar 1 2010, 10:07 PM) Hm...   Mar 2 2010, 03:08 AM
- - Omenowl   I don't have my book with me, but Karoline wit...   Mar 1 2010, 10:05 PM
|- - Karoline   QUOTE (Omenowl @ Mar 1 2010, 05:05 PM) I ...   Mar 1 2010, 11:12 PM
- - Karoline   Okay, so looks like the best you can do is 750 BP ...   Mar 1 2010, 11:39 PM
|- - Draco18s   QUOTE (Karoline @ Mar 1 2010, 06:39 PM) I...   Mar 1 2010, 11:53 PM
- - Saint Sithney   So, it looks like BP is more open to abuse. Sound...   Mar 1 2010, 11:53 PM
|- - Karoline   QUOTE (Saint Sithney @ Mar 1 2010, 06:53 ...   Mar 2 2010, 12:09 AM
- - Saint Sithney   So it looks like karmagen produces more viable cha...   Mar 2 2010, 12:14 AM
|- - Udoshi   QUOTE (Saint Sithney @ Mar 1 2010, 05:14 ...   Mar 2 2010, 01:30 AM
||- - Karoline   QUOTE (Udoshi @ Mar 1 2010, 08:30 PM) Bot...   Mar 2 2010, 02:45 AM
||- - toturi   QUOTE (Karoline @ Mar 2 2010, 10:45 AM) K...   Mar 2 2010, 02:57 AM
||- - Karoline   QUOTE (toturi @ Mar 1 2010, 09:57 PM) 44/...   Mar 2 2010, 03:41 AM
||- - toturi   QUOTE (Karoline @ Mar 2 2010, 11:41 AM) F...   Mar 2 2010, 04:33 AM
|- - toturi   QUOTE (Saint Sithney @ Mar 2 2010, 08:14 ...   Mar 2 2010, 01:42 AM
- - Glyph   I find that the overall amount of points influence...   Mar 2 2010, 03:22 AM
|- - Karoline   QUOTE (Glyph @ Mar 1 2010, 10:22 PM) With...   Mar 2 2010, 03:47 AM
- - Saint Sithney   Well, when talking about getting skills above 5, I...   Mar 2 2010, 09:21 AM
|- - Karoline   QUOTE (Saint Sithney @ Mar 2 2010, 04:21 ...   Mar 2 2010, 03:05 PM
- - Karoline   Just for fun, I grabbed one of my own characters I...   Mar 2 2010, 03:45 PM
|- - toturi   QUOTE (Karoline @ Mar 2 2010, 11:45 PM) J...   Mar 3 2010, 01:30 AM
|- - Karoline   QUOTE (toturi @ Mar 2 2010, 08:30 PM) Exc...   Mar 3 2010, 01:35 AM
|- - toturi   QUOTE (Karoline @ Mar 3 2010, 09:35 AM) M...   Mar 3 2010, 08:11 AM
||- - Karoline   QUOTE (toturi @ Mar 3 2010, 03:11 AM) Edg...   Mar 3 2010, 01:18 PM
|||- - toturi   QUOTE (Karoline @ Mar 3 2010, 09:18 PM) O...   Mar 3 2010, 03:43 PM
|||- - Karoline   QUOTE (toturi @ Mar 3 2010, 10:43 AM) Yes...   Mar 3 2010, 03:51 PM
||||- - toturi   QUOTE (Karoline @ Mar 3 2010, 11:51 PM) I...   Mar 3 2010, 11:27 PM
||||- - Karoline   QUOTE (toturi @ Mar 3 2010, 06:27 PM) I c...   Mar 4 2010, 01:33 AM
||||- - toturi   QUOTE (Karoline @ Mar 4 2010, 09:33 AM) R...   Mar 4 2010, 02:29 AM
|||- - Draco18s   QUOTE (toturi @ Mar 3 2010, 10:43 AM) A m...   Mar 3 2010, 03:54 PM
||- - CeeJay   QUOTE (toturi @ Mar 3 2010, 09:11 AM) How...   Mar 3 2010, 03:52 PM
|- - Jaid   QUOTE (Karoline @ Mar 2 2010, 08:35 PM) L...   Mar 3 2010, 04:26 PM
|- - Karoline   QUOTE (Jaid @ Mar 3 2010, 11:26 AM) have ...   Mar 3 2010, 04:32 PM
- - Kraegor   Please remember.. According to the RAW in RC... ...   Mar 2 2010, 08:47 PM
- - Karoline   Okay, so the karmagen system is even more favorabl...   Mar 2 2010, 09:07 PM
|- - Kraegor   QUOTE (Karoline @ Mar 2 2010, 10:07 PM) O...   Mar 2 2010, 09:53 PM
|- - Karoline   QUOTE (Kraegor @ Mar 2 2010, 04:53 PM) If...   Mar 2 2010, 10:14 PM
|- - Kraegor   QUOTE (Karoline @ Mar 2 2010, 11:14 PM) G...   Mar 2 2010, 10:52 PM
|- - Karoline   QUOTE (Kraegor @ Mar 2 2010, 05:52 PM) I ...   Mar 2 2010, 10:55 PM
- - Shinobi Killfist   They have not given us the errata the English vers...   Mar 2 2010, 10:56 PM
- - Karoline   Well, personally it is a rule I rather like, the 1...   Mar 2 2010, 10:58 PM
- - Brol_The_Mighty   So, I've got SR4A IN MY HANDS and there are NO...   Mar 2 2010, 11:02 PM
|- - Karoline   QUOTE (Brol_The_Mighty @ Mar 2 2010, 06:0...   Mar 2 2010, 11:07 PM
|- - Shinobi Killfist   QUOTE (Karoline @ Mar 2 2010, 06:07 PM) R...   Mar 2 2010, 11:10 PM
- - X-Kalibur   I think you're remember the SR4 -> SR4A cha...   Mar 2 2010, 11:10 PM
- - Glyph   Even the enforcer archetype, with a Body and Stren...   Mar 3 2010, 03:15 AM
- - Jaid   under BP chargen, complex forms cost 1 BP per rati...   Mar 3 2010, 09:20 PM
- - Glyph   One area where BP is more optimal - some of the in...   Mar 4 2010, 03:53 AM
|- - toturi   QUOTE (Glyph @ Mar 4 2010, 11:53 AM) One ...   Mar 4 2010, 05:12 AM
- - Karoline   Infected is a quality? Doesn't that prevent a...   Mar 4 2010, 03:57 AM
- - AKWeaponsSpecialist   QUOTE (Karoline @ Mar 3 2010, 06:57 PM) I...   Mar 4 2010, 05:05 AM


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