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> Do videogames make you RP sociopaths by default?, Deep thoughts after playing SEAL Team
Wounded Ronin
post Jul 1 2007, 01:27 AM
Post #1


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I spent all of yesterday playing an abandonware title, Electronic Arts' SEAL Team from 1989. It's a wonderful game for 1989 which in my opinion has developed a lot of wonderful aspects of simulationist squad level game play which have not been well carried over today. SEAL Team isn't as sophisticated in its treatment of things that have been done increasingly well these days, like differentiating between the utility of being prone, crouched, or standing (in SEAL Team prone is basically always the best and running upright is always suicidal), or in the detailed mechanics of weapons (somehow there are no tactical reloads in SEAL Team!!!), but the wonderful aspect of this game is the flexibility with which you can call in air support or boat support for your team.

Unlike most games today which are basically about the skill of the gamer to defeat the bots SEAL Team constrains player effectiveness based on character skill. There's no way to aim better as a player and kill the enemy faster; the effectiveness of your rifle is based entirely on your character's effectiveness. If your team ends up in a dangerous situation the constructive solution is to call in your support units to help you out, which is a lot more realistic than a Physad-style miracle player killing 30 VC with ultra 100 meter headshots on one M16 mag while under heavy fire. (cough cough, Delta Force Black Hawk Down) The issues become then friendly fire, distant enemy alertness levels, and the length of time it takes for your air support to arrive. I appreciate that as something which isn't well done necessarily today.

Anyway, as I was playing this game while trying to maximize my score I began to wonder if I wasn't by default somehow role-playing a sociopathic pointman. This was my second time playing through the game and I had been trying to maximize my score. Accordingly, in addition to completing the mission objectives, I exposed the virtual SEAL Team to a lot of extra risk by stalking around the map and attempting to kill each and every enemy present. Even if I had injured team members I still engaged in this behavior; I risked losing the characters if they were killed but I didn't care about that very much since my goal was to get the highest body count possible.

If you think about it in terms of role playing anyone who plays a realism-themed or simulationist game that deals with combat would be portraying a sociopath. In real life a person who gets into a firefight could experience a long term mental trauma from the experience, like post traumatic stress disorder. From the perspective of the player controlling FPS hero, though, they're not real people and pants-wetting situations involving grenades exploding everywhere, team members dying and severed limbs splattering to the ground (thank you, Soldier of Fortune II) leads neither to fear, nor anger, nor even a strong emotional experience of any kind. It's all...mildly amusing. Imagine a possible conversation inside a FPS game:

Private: "Oh my god, Jones is dead! He's in two pieces. Oh god, sarge, I heard him moaning until he stopped, but we were under fire, I couldn't do anything...."

FPS hero sarge: "Hmm, I only got 34 headshots out of 40 shots fired. What a bother."

Private: "We've got men down! What should we do?"

FPS hero: "I need your sniper ammo." *kills private, takes his ammo*


I suppose that if somebody were to choose to roleplay someone who doesn't register pain (he probably needs to feel it but literally doesn't care) and who had a sociopathic delusion that he was the hero of a realistic FPS game in a table top role playing game it would be a really weird experience at the gaming table. It might not be a successful character in the long term due to lack of good team playing, but I'll bet that it would be really weird to see.
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- Wounded Ronin   Do videogames make you RP sociopaths by default?   Jul 1 2007, 01:27 AM
- - Ravor   Well I seem to recall reading on Dumpshock where s...   Jul 1 2007, 02:40 AM
- - Wounded Ronin   QUOTE (Ravor) Well I seem to recall reading on Dum...   Jul 1 2007, 03:21 AM
- - Ravor   Well you have to remember that I'm going purel...   Jul 1 2007, 04:33 PM
- - Fix-it   Yes. but the reason we have games is so we don...   Jul 1 2007, 04:46 PM
- - Critias   What? I thought they were for practice.   Jul 1 2007, 04:55 PM
- - Wounded Ronin   QUOTE (Critias) What? I thought they were for pra...   Jul 1 2007, 10:42 PM
- - Wounded Ronin   QUOTE (Ravor) I don't remember the poster say...   Jul 1 2007, 10:44 PM
- - Critias   QUOTE (Wounded Ronin) QUOTE (Critias @ Jul 1 ...   Jul 1 2007, 10:50 PM
- - Wounded Ronin   QUOTE (Critias) QUOTE (Wounded Ronin @ Jul 1 ...   Jul 1 2007, 10:55 PM
- - Critias   Because other people already have their names plas...   Jul 1 2007, 11:01 PM
- - Ravor   QUOTE (Wounded Ronin)Ha ha, pwned! Of course, ...   Jul 1 2007, 11:27 PM
- - hyzmarca   QUOTE (Wounded Ronin @ Jul 1 2007, 05:55 PM) ...   Jul 2 2007, 08:23 AM
- - Talia Invierno   *laugh* Advertisements have power to shape attitu...   Jul 2 2007, 02:58 PM
- - Ravor   My eyes! Oh dear God my eyes are bleeding afte...   Jul 2 2007, 03:35 PM
- - Fix-it   Jack Thompson is in it for the money. video game ...   Jul 2 2007, 06:31 PM
- - hyzmarca   He isn't just in it for the money. He appears ...   Jul 2 2007, 06:37 PM
- - Moon-Hawk   QUOTE (hyzmarca) Incidentally, he was Pwned by Jan...   Jul 2 2007, 06:39 PM
- - Kagetenshi   QUOTE (Ravor) But to answer your question, no I wa...   Jul 2 2007, 07:15 PM
- - Critias   "We prefer the term 'interspecies erotica...   Jul 2 2007, 07:22 PM
- - hyzmarca   While I do happily defend the rights of all indivi...   Jul 2 2007, 09:13 PM
- - Ravor   I'm sorry, but while I consider myself fairly ...   Jul 2 2007, 09:35 PM
- - Kagetenshi   QUOTE (hyzmarca @ Jul 2 2007, 04:13 PM) To ad...   Jul 2 2007, 09:38 PM
- - Wounded Ronin   QUOTE (Ravor) My eyes! Oh dear God my eyes are...   Jul 3 2007, 12:03 AM
- - Backgammon   There was an article about Jack Thompson in a Roll...   Jul 3 2007, 02:27 AM
- - fistandantilus3.0   I must say that I'm very impressed at the brea...   Jul 3 2007, 03:56 AM
- - Critias   Okay, dad. The reason "role playing" ...   Jul 3 2007, 04:39 AM
- - Talia Invierno   Which is a bit like saying that for all SR tableto...   Jul 3 2007, 06:45 AM
- - Critias   Your sentence isn't making sense to me. I rec...   Jul 3 2007, 07:16 AM
- - Talia Invierno   Just rephrasing your last paragraph, Critias.   Jul 3 2007, 07:21 AM
- - Critias   The last paragraph is specifically in reference to...   Jul 3 2007, 07:52 AM
- - Talia Invierno   That was understood. Maybe I should have added th...   Jul 3 2007, 01:47 PM
- - Hocus Pocus   QUOTE (Wounded Ronin)I spent all of yesterday dud...   Jul 14 2007, 11:52 PM
- - Wounded Ronin   QUOTE (Hocus Pocus) QUOTE (Wounded Ronin)I spent a...   Jul 15 2007, 03:33 AM
- - Talia Invierno   And yet people don't change. All the rest is ...   Jul 15 2007, 06:00 AM
- - Fix-it   Here's a good example of the oringinal thread ...   Jul 21 2007, 04:04 AM
- - Ravor   Well personally I tend to assume that the "Ki...   Jul 21 2007, 07:56 AM
- - Talia Invierno   You will have seen my link there. Human beings ar...   Jul 21 2007, 09:22 AM
- - Kagetenshi   QUOTE (Talia Invierno) The less we think one part ...   Jul 21 2007, 01:36 PM
- - Talia Invierno   I did. You're right. That's what comes o...   Jul 21 2007, 02:47 PM
- - Ravor   Yeah, I read the links, and even agree that sure, ...   Jul 21 2007, 04:16 PM
- - Kagetenshi   I can also toss my anecdote into the ring to say t...   Jul 21 2007, 04:31 PM
- - Wounded Ronin   QUOTE (Talia Invierno) You will have seen my link ...   Jul 21 2007, 10:28 PM
- - Ravor   Both and neither, all at the same time.   Jul 21 2007, 10:46 PM
- - Talia Invierno   Physical skills, or mental attitude toward killing...   Jul 21 2007, 10:54 PM
- - Wounded Ronin   QUOTE (Talia Invierno) Physical skills, or mental ...   Jul 22 2007, 01:31 AM
- - Critias   I'd say it has less to do with Nintendos and P...   Jul 22 2007, 02:31 PM
- - Kagetenshi   Well, I can see valid arguments against memorials ...   Jul 22 2007, 02:48 PM
- - Ravor   Or to put a more positive spin on the viewpoint Ka...   Jul 22 2007, 03:00 PM
- - Kagetenshi   There is a large set of possible self-consistent v...   Jul 22 2007, 03:12 PM
- - Ravor   Sure, however the problem that I've found with...   Jul 22 2007, 03:34 PM
- - Kagetenshi   I'm really not seeing your argument against se...   Jul 22 2007, 03:56 PM
- - Critias   Basically, I think all the "video games lead ...   Jul 22 2007, 03:58 PM
- - Aku   QUOTE (critias)it's trendy to blame something ...   Jul 22 2007, 04:04 PM
- - bibliophile20   QUOTE (Aku) Would he be going after Steven Speilbe...   Jul 22 2007, 04:47 PM
- - Kagetenshi   I'd object to the simplistic portrayal of peop...   Jul 22 2007, 04:58 PM
- - Aku   i agree with Kage, i think. Everytime someone poin...   Jul 22 2007, 05:01 PM
- - PBTHHHHT   QUOTE (Critias) That "vampire cult" in F...   Jul 22 2007, 05:03 PM
- - Ravor   The short answer is to watch the "talking hea...   Jul 22 2007, 05:08 PM
- - Aku   ya know, i now life in the south, i wonder, what t...   Jul 22 2007, 05:10 PM
- - Critias   QUOTE (Kagetenshi) I'd object to the simplisti...   Jul 22 2007, 05:11 PM
- - Fortune   QUOTE (Aku) not to say i think we should attack ca...   Jul 22 2007, 05:27 PM
- - Kagetenshi   QUOTE (Ravor) The short answer is to watch the ...   Jul 22 2007, 05:40 PM
- - PBTHHHHT   QUOTE (Aku) (not to say i think we should attack c...   Jul 22 2007, 08:07 PM
- - Kagetenshi   Maine declared war on them, so I figure that's...   Jul 22 2007, 08:13 PM
- - Sterling   I think the OP is onto something, but it's not...   Jul 22 2007, 08:46 PM
- - Kagetenshi   The question is, is a RTT game like Myth more or l...   Jul 22 2007, 08:58 PM
- - Critias   Sometimes I take prisoners when the terrorists in ...   Jul 22 2007, 09:01 PM
- - nezumi   When I play RTSes I always try to minimize troop l...   Jul 24 2007, 03:35 AM
- - hyzmarca   QUOTE (Wounded Ronin) QUOTE (Talia Invierno ...   Jul 24 2007, 04:30 PM
- - Talia Invierno   Not touching the celebrating soldiers v. celebrati...   Jul 24 2007, 08:31 PM
- - Kagetenshi   QUOTE (Talia Invierno) I agree absolutely with the...   Jul 24 2007, 09:49 PM
- - Talia Invierno   I think that every action involves choice: even if...   Jul 24 2007, 10:44 PM
- - Angelone   The military now has the EST (Engagment skills tra...   Jul 24 2007, 10:51 PM
- - Kagetenshi   QUOTE (Talia Invierno) I think that every action i...   Jul 24 2007, 11:14 PM
- - Wounded Ronin   QUOTE (nezumi) When I play RTSes I always try to m...   Jul 24 2007, 11:44 PM
- - Talia Invierno   QUOTE (Kagetenshi)QUOTE (Talia Invierno)I think th...   Jul 25 2007, 01:15 AM
- - Kagetenshi   QUOTE (Talia Invierno) QUOTE Similarly, there is n...   Jul 25 2007, 01:36 AM
- - Talia Invierno   QUOTE (Kagetenshi)QUOTE (Talia Invierno)If you rea...   Jul 25 2007, 02:13 AM
- - Kagetenshi   QUOTE (Talia Invierno) And I ask: what makes ...   Jul 25 2007, 02:47 AM
- - Talia Invierno   QUOTE QUOTE (Talia Invierno)Choice is one of the g...   Jul 25 2007, 03:42 AM
- - Kagetenshi   It's not actually as circular as it looks. I...   Jul 25 2007, 04:08 AM
- - Talia Invierno   I'm tired too, and I really don't yet know...   Jul 25 2007, 05:00 AM
- - Crusher Bob   It may philosophically negate human responsibility...   Jul 25 2007, 08:46 AM
- - Kagetenshi   QUOTE (Talia Invierno) I'm tired too, and I re...   Jul 25 2007, 10:57 AM
- - mfb   discussing absolute determinism seems moot, to me....   Jul 25 2007, 12:00 PM
- - Kagetenshi   Right. I covered that earlier. However, absolute d...   Jul 25 2007, 12:23 PM
- - Critias   I think that it is unreasonable to say "{set ...   Jul 25 2007, 12:48 PM
- - Kagetenshi   Well, there's a reason I said {person in a giv...   Jul 25 2007, 01:25 PM
- - mfb   yeah, if a given input only forces a small subset ...   Jul 25 2007, 01:29 PM
- - Talia Invierno   QUOTE (Kagetenshi)QUOTE (Talia Invierno)I'm ti...   Jul 25 2007, 01:52 PM
- - Kagetenshi   QUOTE (mfb)yeah, if a given input only forces a sm...   Jul 25 2007, 01:53 PM
- - Talia Invierno   ... one more. One of the possible counters to det...   Jul 25 2007, 02:01 PM
- - Kagetenshi   I'm really not sure what you mean--if you mean...   Jul 25 2007, 02:04 PM
- - hyzmarca   QUOTE (mfb) discussing absolute determinism seems ...   Jul 25 2007, 05:19 PM
- - mfb   the discussion is still moot, even if you assume i...   Jul 25 2007, 07:59 PM
- - Kagetenshi   Absolute determinism doesn't mean you can...   Jul 25 2007, 08:07 PM
- - the_dunner   Interesting discussion aside, this no longer has a...   Jul 25 2007, 09:39 PM
- - Talia Invierno   [not worth it]   Aug 2 2007, 03:58 AM
- - Kagetenshi   PMs? ~J   Aug 2 2007, 10:52 AM


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