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> Surgery, Why the hate?
Talia Invierno
post Aug 2 2007, 11:32 AM
Post #1


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Never once have the surgery rules been mentioned on these boards without -- yes, call it hate. The reason most commonly given is that they are insanely complicated.

I never found them so. Quite the contrary: once I caught the mechanic, they seemed some of the most straightforward in the entire set of rulebooks. After all, the core of it was simply determining

(a) the category of surgery;
(b) the risked negative options and desired positive options; and
(c ) location/technology/condition:

all of which together gives a target number and the required number of successes for bad things not to happen and for each potential good thing thereafter.

The combat rules are considerably more complex: yet reaction to any single part of these is far less visceral. Spellcasting even has a similar structure of rules, with the balancing act of ideal Force level echoing the balance of desired surgical options against acceptable TN.

The surgery rules do, however, insert an element of risk that is not within the PC's direct control: something almost unique throughout the rulebooks. What's more, that risk cuts directly at a keystone of the PC's sought-after superiority.

Interestingly, I have noticed that many of the most welcomed SR4 changes cut out precisely this kind of risk, or indeed most situations where a PC would be required to find a way to work with others and perhaps even have to trust them. For example, Astral Gateway is no longer a power for which the PCs have to negotiate with a free spirit; but one which an Awakened PC can command of a Guidance spirit as soon as Invoking is learned.

Perhaps in parallel, other commonly welcomed changes in SR4 involve anything that reduces negative consequences of power. The constant risk of focus addiction is gone. At least in the core books through Augmentation, the objective potential for drug addiction has vanished. With Edge, even imminent death has become -- less than relevant.

(In fact, one of the most fought-against new rules continues to be the concept of aspected Essence holes, even with the simultaneous release of genetech to undo Essence holes altogether ... so permanent Essence loss becomes another negative consequence which becomes far less relevant in SR4. The argument against aspected Essence holes is that it's an unnecessary complication. I can't help but notice that the point of contention happens to be over one of the few remaining limitations on the power balancing act.)

And the surgery rules are gone.

What really underlies the hate of the surgery rules?
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Posts in this topic
- Talia Invierno   Surgery   Aug 2 2007, 11:32 AM
- - Critias   They were horribly complex and open to monstrous m...   Aug 2 2007, 11:43 AM
- - Doctor Funkenstein   It was just an unnecessary complication to the gam...   Aug 2 2007, 11:45 AM
- - Blade   I was quite fine with the surgery rules, except fo...   Aug 2 2007, 12:19 PM
- - Xirces   I've never had cause to use them (I don't ...   Aug 2 2007, 12:23 PM
- - Vaevictis   I personally don't like them because, at least...   Aug 2 2007, 12:43 PM
- - Kagetenshi   Basically, they were a totally uncontrollable risk...   Aug 2 2007, 01:04 PM
- - Pendaric   I have dabbled with the surgery rules and still us...   Aug 2 2007, 02:53 PM
- - Kyoto Kid   QUOTE (Kagetenshi)Basically, they were a totally u...   Aug 2 2007, 03:01 PM
- - Kagetenshi   But like I said in what you quoted, it can't b...   Aug 2 2007, 03:12 PM
- - FrankTrollman   Delta Ware is a myth. What Delta clinics actually ...   Aug 2 2007, 05:01 PM
- - mfb   my biggest problem with the surgery rules wasn...   Aug 2 2007, 05:30 PM
- - Kagetenshi   QUOTE (mfb)moreover, surgery is something that hap...   Aug 2 2007, 05:38 PM
- - mfb   rare events should not be complex because making s...   Aug 2 2007, 05:47 PM
- - Talia Invierno   *laugh* -- I'm wondering at all the people who...   Aug 2 2007, 11:30 PM
- - Wounded Ronin   QUOTE (Talia Invierno) *laugh* -- I'm wonderin...   Aug 2 2007, 11:37 PM
- - Talia Invierno   You mean my participation in the How to have femal...   Aug 2 2007, 11:45 PM
- - Wounded Ronin   QUOTE (Talia Invierno @ Aug 2 2007, 06:45 PM)...   Aug 2 2007, 11:58 PM
- - hyzmarca   There is nothing wrong with complex surgery rules....   Aug 3 2007, 12:20 AM
- - mfb   you can only run through a surgery that quickly if...   Aug 3 2007, 12:34 AM
- - Doctor Funkenstein   QUOTE (Talia Invierno) *laugh* -- I'm wonderin...   Aug 3 2007, 12:42 AM
- - mfb   QUOTE (Doctor Funkenstein)As a cinematic game, Sha...   Aug 3 2007, 12:52 AM
- - Doctor Funkenstein   I know.   Aug 3 2007, 12:53 AM
- - mfb   of course, one problem with the surgery rules is t...   Aug 3 2007, 12:58 AM
- - Talia Invierno   Wounded Ronin: I think you made my point for me. ...   Aug 3 2007, 01:01 AM
- - mfb   Talia, you're using numbers to obscure and ign...   Aug 3 2007, 01:08 AM
- - FrankTrollman   Yeah, I have participated in heart surgery in the ...   Aug 3 2007, 01:58 AM
- - Kagetenshi   QUOTE (Talia Invierno @ Aug 2 2007, 06:30 PM)...   Aug 3 2007, 02:04 AM
- - Herald of Verjigorm   QUOTE (FrankTrollman)I generally expect that surge...   Aug 3 2007, 02:29 AM
- - Talia Invierno   QUOTE (mfb)Talia, you're using numbers to obsc...   Aug 3 2007, 02:33 AM
- - mfb   like i've said, it's the fact that the sur...   Aug 3 2007, 02:54 AM
- - hyzmarca   QUOTE (Herald of Verjigorm) QUOTE (FrankTrollman)I...   Aug 3 2007, 02:58 AM
- - Talia Invierno   QUOTE (mfb)but the combat rules get used every sin...   Aug 3 2007, 03:06 AM
- - Kagetenshi   I'll put it this way: One of the first things...   Aug 3 2007, 03:16 AM
- - mfb   no, but i use the basic combat rules--into which a...   Aug 3 2007, 03:20 AM
- - Talia Invierno   It's a matter of running down the list of, wha...   Aug 3 2007, 03:53 AM
- - mfb   no, it's a matter of knowing what tables to ch...   Aug 3 2007, 05:17 AM
- - Vaevictis   Maybe it's just me, but it's not that the ...   Aug 3 2007, 05:53 AM
- - Talia Invierno   QUOTE (mfb)at some point, you have to accept that ...   Aug 3 2007, 06:06 AM
- - mfb   QUOTE (Talia Invierno)That being said, it still do...   Aug 3 2007, 06:20 AM
- - Talia Invierno   QUOTE (mfb)QUOTE (Talia Invierno)I repeat: it...   Aug 3 2007, 06:47 AM
- - Critias   QUOTE (Talia Invierno) After all, if you don't...   Aug 3 2007, 06:48 AM
- - Talia Invierno   Possibly because I see variations of it in the way...   Aug 3 2007, 06:58 AM
- - Wounded Ronin   QUOTE (Talia Invierno) Possibly because I see vari...   Aug 3 2007, 07:01 AM
- - Talia Invierno   Some oldtimers, yes. You'll have noticed the ...   Aug 3 2007, 07:06 AM
- - Wounded Ronin   QUOTE (Talia Invierno) Some oldtimers, yes. You...   Aug 3 2007, 07:10 AM
- - Talia Invierno   Fair enough point. I'm suggesting that only t...   Aug 3 2007, 07:16 AM
- - Vaevictis   QUOTE (Talia Invierno)@ Vaevictis: I think we...   Aug 3 2007, 07:22 AM
- - mfb   QUOTE (Talia Invierno)That almost defines a circul...   Aug 3 2007, 07:27 AM
- - Talia Invierno   *laugh* Vaevictis, I wouldn't expect you to f...   Aug 3 2007, 07:39 AM
- - Wounded Ronin   QUOTE (Talia Invierno) Fair enough point. I'm...   Aug 3 2007, 07:47 AM
- - mfb   QUOTE (Talia Invierno)The distinction between circ...   Aug 3 2007, 07:52 AM
- - Ravor   Besides, the fact remains that using the combat ru...   Aug 3 2007, 08:02 AM
- - Vaevictis   QUOTE (Ravor) Besides, the fact remains that using...   Aug 3 2007, 08:04 AM
- - Talia Invierno   And now we have reached a key point: What is not ...   Aug 3 2007, 08:35 AM
- - Vaevictis   QUOTE (Talia Invierno) And now we have reached a k...   Aug 3 2007, 08:50 AM
- - Fortune   QUOTE (Talia Invierno @ Aug 3 2007, 06:35 PM)...   Aug 3 2007, 08:52 AM
- - Critias   QUOTE Possibly because I see variations of it in t...   Aug 3 2007, 08:55 AM
- - Talia Invierno   If you don't find it relevant, Critias, no one...   Aug 3 2007, 09:33 AM
- - Critias   QUOTE And in SR, it's been demonstrated that e...   Aug 3 2007, 09:56 AM
- - Talia Invierno   QUOTE And in SR, it's been demonstrated that e...   Aug 3 2007, 10:18 AM
- - Critias   So despite threads concerning firearms realism bei...   Aug 3 2007, 10:41 AM
- - Talia Invierno   Except insofar as it's already incorporated in...   Aug 3 2007, 11:12 AM
- - Kagetenshi   Going backwards a little: QUOTE (Talia Invierno)1...   Aug 3 2007, 11:32 AM
- - Talia Invierno   QUOTE (Kagetenshi)QUOTE (Talia Invierno)1. Anythin...   Aug 3 2007, 11:58 AM
- - Kagetenshi   QUOTE (Talia Invierno) FWIW, I've understood t...   Aug 3 2007, 12:15 PM
- - mfb   QUOTE (Talia Invierno)Except that your TN is -- we...   Aug 3 2007, 02:44 PM
- - Moon-Hawk   QUOTE (mfb @ Aug 3 2007, 09:44 AM) most of th...   Aug 3 2007, 06:39 PM
- - Fortune   That's funny. I agree with mfb's last post...   Aug 3 2007, 09:40 PM
- - Critias   QUOTE (Moon-Hawk) If mfb and I really are complete...   Aug 4 2007, 04:52 AM
- - fistandantilus3.0   Alright, enough said on that subject thank you.   Aug 4 2007, 05:14 AM
- - Talia Invierno   @ Kagetenshi: I referenced "popular" be...   Aug 4 2007, 06:01 AM
- - mfb   QUOTE (Talia Invierno)From p.2, the original descr...   Aug 4 2007, 07:22 AM
- - Talia Invierno   Your choice, of course. I'll mention only tha...   Aug 4 2007, 07:29 AM
- - Ravor   They still need three sucesses in order to achieve...   Aug 4 2007, 07:47 AM
- - Talia Invierno   I'm torn. On the one hand, I know there is a ...   Aug 4 2007, 08:36 AM
- - Vaevictis   QUOTE (Talia Invierno) It's already been decid...   Aug 4 2007, 09:36 AM
- - Kagetenshi   QUOTE (Talia Invierno @ Aug 4 2007, 01:01 AM)...   Aug 4 2007, 01:26 PM
- - Pendaric   With respect there are plenty of moderate posters ...   Aug 4 2007, 03:20 PM
- - Ravor   QUOTE (Talia Invierno)On the other hand, I also kn...   Aug 4 2007, 05:49 PM
- - Talia Invierno   Here's a distinction: Where a player is refer...   Aug 4 2007, 05:51 PM
- - FrankTrollman   QUOTE (Talia)Actually, from the first page I was s...   Aug 4 2007, 09:05 PM
- - Pendaric   It takes two or more to argue. My intent was not t...   Aug 4 2007, 09:58 PM
- - Kagetenshi   I'm confused. This isn't the way you debat...   Aug 4 2007, 10:02 PM
- - Pendaric   "Dull thunk of head hitting wall repeatedly....   Aug 4 2007, 10:22 PM
- - Talia Invierno   Er -- Frank, don't take this the wrong way in ...   Aug 5 2007, 09:32 AM
- - fistandantilus3.0   QUOTE (Talia)A regular member who posted as you di...   Aug 5 2007, 03:05 PM
- - FrankTrollman   QUOTE Er -- Frank, don't take this the wrong w...   Aug 5 2007, 03:52 PM
- - Sedna   [edit]   Aug 5 2007, 04:39 PM
- - Talia Invierno   Is that all you think you did there, Frank: just s...   Aug 5 2007, 04:44 PM
- - FrankTrollman   QUOTE (Talia)If I can prove a point quantifiably a...   Aug 5 2007, 04:55 PM
- - Talia Invierno   Sorry, but it's not an Open Test. Open Tests ...   Aug 6 2007, 05:43 AM
- - Fuchs   In my experience, the surgery rules were looked at...   Aug 6 2007, 08:45 AM
- - FrankTrollman   QUOTE (Talia Invierno) Sorry, but it's not an ...   Aug 6 2007, 04:03 PM
- - Bull   QUOTE (FrankTrollman) QUOTE (Talia Invierno ...   Aug 6 2007, 04:40 PM


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