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Wounded Ronin
post Oct 17 2007, 03:38 AM
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So on and off and little by little I'm working on my personal project "80s Run", where I'd use the framework of the SR dice system to make a game for role playing in the 80s. Since there wouldn't necessarily be magic I figure that firearms would be more important and I can go about trying to make firearms as realistic as possible for the purposes of a tabletop RPG or tabletop strategy game.

I figure that a good point to start would be police firearms accuracy statistics. This would give me at least a vague idea of how often people with basic levels of training should be able to hit their targets in a real combat situation. By analzying statistics I could come with a certain range of ballpark probabilities that should be hit by the rules under what would be considered average conditions with average participants.

However, I was having a hard time finding official police hit/miss stats on the internet. The only thing I found was New York Times article that had a few stats, but they're all rounds fired rather than hit/miss stats. I'll post the article text FYI here but the question I wanted to ask the enlightened ranks of DSF is if anyone knows where I can find police hit/miss stats.

Anyway, here's the article. It's actually kind of amusing and quaint (it's from 1995) because apparently some people were suggesting that a 15 round magazine in 9x19mm was too much firepower for the cops. It makes me sad. Note also incorrect use of term "clip" instead of "magazine".

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html...&pagewanted=all

QUOTE

After a two-month study of the Police Department's new rapid-firing 9-millimeter semiautomatic handguns, senior police officials have decided to increase training in the use of the weapon. But department figures show no dramatic upsurge in shooting, and the officials say there is no reason to stop issuing the guns.

The powerful handguns have become standard issue among police forces throughout the country, including in the low-crime national park system. But they have been the source of controversy in New York City since the Police Department first began allowing officers, who felt outgunned by criminals, to use the weapons three years ago.

Concerns that the police were firing too many rounds with the guns, which are equipped with 15-round clips, stemmed from an incident last December in which officers fired 247 times during a shootout in Queens in which a bystander was killed.

And after a robbery in a Bronx bodega in February, during which officers fired 125 bullets, Police Commissioner William J. Bratton assembled a committee of his chiefs to study whether the traditional six-bullet, .38-caliber revolver should be issued to recruits.

The panel, led by First Deputy Police Commissioner John F. Timoney, expects to reach its conclusions by the end of the month. But officials say that only minor modifications in training and equipment are expected.

"We're not retracting the 9-millimeter," Mr. Timoney said. "It's here to stay."

In an interview on Friday, Mr. Timoney said the department would produce a new series of training videos for distribution to all precincts and Police Academy classes. The videos would outline different scenarios in which officers should use or not use their weapons, as well as how they can minimize the times they fire to accomplish their mission while protecting themselves and bystanders from errant bullets. Mr. Timoney said the aim of the videos will be to make officers act defensively. He said the panel is also looking into whether the department should replace the bullets now used in the semiautomatics with bullets that expand on impact. That would lessen the chance that they would pass through targets and hit bystanders, but it would increase the chance that the bullets would do more harm to those they hit.

Other officials said the department was looking into other safety measures, like tightening the triggers of the Glock, Sig Sauer and Smith & Wesson 9-millimeters now used by about 24,000 officers.

In recent months, the Police Department has collected statistics on how often officers fire their 9-millimeter handguns, which were published yesterday in New York Newsday. The published statistics, which the Police Department did not dispute, show that the average number of rounds fired by officers who shoot 9-millimeters is higher than the number of rounds fired by those who shoot other guns. But the numbers also show that the average number of shots fired by all 9-millimeters on the force is actually lower now than three years ago, when the department began issuing the weapon.

The average number of bullets fired by officers equipped with 9-millimeters during shooting incidents was 3.69 in 1992, 3.71 in 1993 and 4.08 in 1994. Officers carrying all other guns fired an average of 2.68 bullets per shooting incident in 1992, 2.74 in 1993 and 2.77 in 1994.

That means officers with 9-millimeter handguns fired one more shot per incident than those equipped with other guns.

The total number of bullets fired by the Police Department, comparing 1992 with last year, increased at almost exactly the same rate as the increase in the number of officers on the force. In 1992, 25,000 officers fired 1,094 bullets; last year, 31,000 officers fired 1,383 times.

Although the numbers show officers who fire 9-millimeters discharge more rounds per shooting, they also show no increase, and actually a decrease, in the average number of shots fired among all those officers carrying 9-millimeter weapon.

The 512 officers equipped with 9-millimeters in 1992 fired 48 shots, or an average of .093 bullets. In 1993, the 888 officers equipped with the weapon fired 126 shots, or an average of .14 bullets. But last year, the 15,000 officers equipped with 9-millimeters fired 710 shots, or an average .047 bullets.

Through the 1980's and early 1990's, the police unions lobbied for the 9-millimeter because its weight, trigger and reloading cartridge permits officers to fire much faster.

Shortly after becoming Commissioner last year, Mr. Bratton allowed officers carrying the 9-millimeters to increase their firepower from 10-round clips to 15-round clips. It was a move that pleased beat officers, who often complain that drug dealers and organized crime members are carrying more powerful weapons every year
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Posts in this topic
- Wounded Ronin   Help me research RL police firearms accuracy rates   Oct 17 2007, 03:38 AM
- - Wounded Ronin   OK, when I narrowed my queries and searched for NY...   Oct 17 2007, 03:49 AM
- - Emperor Tippy   Cop's are generally not that accurate. Spray a...   Oct 17 2007, 04:06 AM
- - Wounded Ronin   That's very interesting. Does this suggest th...   Oct 17 2007, 04:13 AM
- - Critias   Saying "lol cops can't shoot" is som...   Oct 17 2007, 05:03 AM
- - CyberKender   I don't have any actual statistics for you, bu...   Oct 17 2007, 05:23 AM
- - Wounded Ronin   So if I'm trying to stay within the general fr...   Oct 17 2007, 06:15 AM
- - kzt   Looking quickly: (I couldn't get access to ...   Oct 17 2007, 07:59 AM
- - Crusher Bob   Here's some stuff for the NYPD: NEW YORK CITY...   Oct 17 2007, 08:57 AM
- - Critias   Honestly, Combat Pool notwithstanding, the core ru...   Oct 17 2007, 10:31 AM
- - Kagetenshi   QUOTE (kzt) A multiple-officer shooting, in which ...   Oct 17 2007, 11:53 AM
- - nezumi   Keep in mind, there are more factors to consider. ...   Oct 17 2007, 01:41 PM
- - kzt   Well, the 70's started with the CHP-Newhall Sh...   Oct 17 2007, 03:52 PM
- - nezumi   The difference is in 1980 they'd shoot people ...   Oct 17 2007, 04:00 PM
- - Wounded Ronin   QUOTE (Critias) Honestly, Combat Pool notwithstand...   Oct 17 2007, 11:23 PM
- - Crusher Bob   The limits on accuracy in combat are largely physi...   Oct 18 2007, 02:08 AM
- - Kagetenshi   QUOTE (Crusher Bob) The limits on accuracy in comb...   Oct 18 2007, 03:03 AM
- - kzt   Before you get too worked up by SLA Marshals work ...   Oct 18 2007, 03:10 AM
- - Crusher Bob   The point I was attempting to make here: QUOTE ...   Oct 18 2007, 04:27 AM
- - Wounded Ronin   Crusher, I've heard of what you mean by the a...   Oct 18 2007, 07:36 AM
- - nezumi   I don't know if I'd decrease Intelligence,...   Oct 18 2007, 01:32 PM
- - Wounded Ronin   QUOTE (nezumi) I don't know if I'd decreas...   Oct 18 2007, 10:30 PM
- - Kagetenshi   There's one out there that does decent spreads...   Oct 18 2007, 11:03 PM
- - Wounded Ronin   OK, I found it. http://www.pvv.ntnu.no/~bcd/SR/di...   Oct 19 2007, 01:35 AM
- - Link   QUOTE (Wounded Ronin) It seems like if we're r...   Oct 19 2007, 03:34 AM
- - Kagetenshi   "Suspect", please, unless they've be...   Oct 19 2007, 03:48 AM
- - Cthulhudreams   To give an international perspective to the commen...   Oct 19 2007, 04:12 AM
- - Link   or "person of interest", used hereabouts...   Oct 19 2007, 04:32 AM
- - Kagetenshi   Well, in the case of the man who at the time was s...   Oct 19 2007, 04:32 AM
- - Cthulhudreams   Another interesting point about firearms accuracy....   Oct 19 2007, 04:53 AM
- - kzt   QUOTE (Link @ Oct 18 2007, 08:34 PM) Assume t...   Oct 19 2007, 05:08 AM
- - Wounded Ronin   QUOTE (Cthulhudreams) Another interesting point ab...   Oct 19 2007, 05:11 AM
- - Cthulhudreams   QUOTE (Wounded Ronin @ Oct 19 2007, 12:11 AM)...   Oct 19 2007, 05:35 AM
- - Kagetenshi   To put it in perspective, my longest-running chara...   Oct 19 2007, 05:42 AM
- - Cthulhudreams   And to cast THAT in perspective, a british operato...   Oct 19 2007, 06:08 AM
- - kzt   IIRC, in Vietnam the amount of small arms ammo exp...   Oct 19 2007, 06:35 AM
- - Critias   But that's because, in most games focused on c...   Oct 19 2007, 08:00 AM
- - Fortune   QUOTE (Cthulhudreams) In Australia the use of fire...   Oct 19 2007, 08:51 AM
- - Cthulhudreams   QUOTE (Fortune @ Oct 19 2007, 03:51 AM) QUOTE...   Oct 19 2007, 02:03 PM
- - Critias   Just because some cops get their handguns mixed up...   Oct 19 2007, 02:08 PM
- - Cthulhudreams   QUOTE (Critias @ Oct 19 2007, 09:08 AM) Just ...   Oct 19 2007, 02:14 PM
- - nezumi   QUOTE One thought on simplifying to the point of s...   Oct 19 2007, 02:19 PM
- - Cthulhudreams   QUOTE (kzt) IIRC, in Vietnam the amount of small a...   Oct 19 2007, 02:28 PM
- - Fortune   QUOTE (Cthulhudreams) Remember the firearms are on...   Oct 19 2007, 02:47 PM
- - Fortune   QUOTE (Cthulhudreams) I also wanted to tag Fortune...   Oct 19 2007, 02:51 PM
- - Snow_Fox   I don't think you can really worry about accur...   Oct 22 2007, 12:32 AM
- - Kagetenshi   Laserdisc. ~J   Oct 22 2007, 12:33 AM
- - Snow_Fox   Atari and only real geeks, whom I would never even...   Oct 22 2007, 12:39 AM


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