Nov 7 2007, 07:30 PM
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Prime Runner ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Banned Posts: 3,732 Joined: 1-September 05 From: Prague, Czech Republic Member No.: 7,665 |
There is a time and a place for nonsensical adventuring, and it is called Dungeons and Dragons. How does a room full of top predators stay alive and successfully breeding new generations for hundreds if years inside a locked tomb in the middle of the desert? Who cares!? Let's kill them and take their stuff. Stuff which they have, for no reason.
But in games with a "grittier" feel, there is a desire for the world to make some sense. If you're breaking into a building full of monsters and locked doors, someone actually built that building. They also had some well-paid architect go through and design the fire escapes, the locking mechanisms, the floor plan. And you had someone actually put all the monsters there. And they didn't ust put duck-rabbits all over the place in order to fight adventurers and drop loot, they put magical animals in specific locations for use as guards, research subects, and pets. They do not have wandering monsters wandering around their homes and offices because that would cause their employees to get killed. That would be bad. Nash Equilibrium The basic concept of Nash Equilibrium is that if you are in conflict with others it is best for you to use your best strategies. Sounds non-controversial, right? Well, the second part about Nash Equilibrium can best be summated with the "Wine in front of me" argument from The Princess Bride - because the people you are in conflict with know that you are going to want to use your best strategies. And you know that they are going to use their best strategies, and they know that you know and all that. But the third part of Nash Eqilibrium is that your "best" strategy depends upon what your opponents are doing. And your opponet's best strategy depends upon what you are doing. That attacks and defenses evolve, and do so extremely quickly, to maximize the effectiveness of their offenses and defenses against their opponents. Your Opponents Are Not Static It is all well and good to plan the perfect heist, the killer crime, the ultimate attack. But the fact is that you are not the only tactician in the world. Other people are also inventing, also perceiving and closing weaknesses, and if you wait long enough your attack will be decidedly less than ultimate. Shaka Zulu did some amazing strategic and tactical innovations right up until he met with gun toting Europeans coming the other way. So regardless of how the world is described, if there is an exploitable weakness in it which is fixable in a manner which is affordable and simple, that weakness will not last long. If a problem has an easily presentable solution, that problem will be solved. And soon. Which means that if the game world depends upon the players exploiting some weakness over and over again in order to accomplish things, the solution to that problem cannot be "easy", or the world is inherently unstable. The entire campaign has a very perceivable end which wil approach very very soon. Budgets are not infinite A lone nut can, on occassion, stand on the upper story of a book depository and shoot a very important man in the face. This is generally quite difficult because powerfl individuals have people going around looking for guys with firearms and axes to grind. Given enough of these people, they would find all the lone nuts, but as is they merely catch most of them. Vulnerabilities which are sufficiently expensive to solve 100% of the time are not going to be solved 100% of the time. A really useful fact for the game world is that if security that is good enough to keep out all of the rabble and merely challenging for the player characters happens to be the economical choice based on costs and projected losses - it is reasonable to expect security which is challenging and exciting every time you run into it. Computer Security Modern day covert ops teams don't bring computer hackers with them. The reason is multifarious; from the fact that may hackers can do their thing from home, to the fact that most hackers work at least as well on their own, to the fact that hackers tend to not be super good at a lot of "covert ops" style tasks. But the really important part is that computer security that is essentially unbeatable by anyone who does not have your password or physical access to your computer in their laboratory is extremely easy to come by. Noone has ever hacked a z/OS server and they probably never will. NetBSD is essentially impenetrable, and is likely to stay that way for the foreseeable future. Using the "sneaker net" - that is putting a physical lack of connection between the outside world your data, carrying flash drives with the tranmissable data to networked machines and keeping the secure data in a place which is actually secure - has been shown to be essentially unhackable under any circumsyances. Nash Equilibrium in the Modern Day What this means is that the Nash Equilibrium has already been reached in the modern world using realistic computer standards of 2007. Actually secure data cannot be hacked and Navy Seals don't bring hackers on covert missions. Not even into hostile office buildings. And what that means is that any system which falls back on any of the core assumptions we make about modern computer security - will inevitably result in a Nash Equilibrium which maps to our present experience: covert operations teams don't even bother having a Computer Specialist. And while you could run a game like that quite easily, the Shadowrun conceit is that the team has Dodger, Sally Tsung, and Ghost Who Walks on it. And for that conceit to hold, the Nash Equilibrium has to include computer specialists as its endstage. Nash Equilibrium in the Shadowrn Future So here's the important parts: it can't be simple or cheap to keep out a matrix specialist, or people would do that. That means that the air gap, even the sneaker net, can't work. But it's more than that. The cheapest alternative of all of course is simply not having a computer, which means that you're down to one of three possibilities:
-Frank |
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FrankTrollman Nash Equilibria and Matrices Nov 7 2007, 07:30 PM
deek Well, couldn't one simply say that in 2071, th... Nov 7 2007, 07:47 PM
FrankTrollman QUOTE (deek) Well, couldn't one simply say tha... Nov 7 2007, 07:55 PM
deek But that is personal taste...I think the SR4 world... Nov 7 2007, 08:03 PM
noonesshowmonkey So is a post-nuclear holocaust. But that would be... Nov 7 2007, 08:10 PM
Eurotroll Frank, I'm not entirely certain I fully grasp ... Nov 7 2007, 08:29 PM
nezumi Your post is excellent, but fails to detail one im... Nov 7 2007, 08:31 PM
hyzmarca It's all about the Benjamins.
Productivity i... Nov 7 2007, 08:42 PM
kzt QUOTE (FrankTrollman)But the really important part... Nov 7 2007, 08:44 PM
Blade Okay, the Matrix is everywhere and everything. You... Nov 7 2007, 09:21 PM
CircuitBoyBlue Essentially, you're saying that it's easy ... Nov 7 2007, 09:38 PM
Backgammon Good thread.
I fall back on the "this is cyb... Nov 7 2007, 09:55 PM
kzt QUOTE (Backgammon) Can Joe Average's bank acco... Nov 7 2007, 10:07 PM
PlatonicPimp to be two specific problems wrapped up in here. Th... Nov 7 2007, 10:17 PM
Buster I've actually worked as a network manager at m... Nov 7 2007, 10:18 PM
eidolon QUOTE (Buster)Do you want to give hackers more to ... Nov 7 2007, 10:54 PM
Seven-7 I can connect my brain to a cybernetic appendage a... Nov 7 2007, 11:27 PM
Adarael Your logic is faulty. By that rationale, any time ... Nov 7 2007, 11:44 PM
Seven-7 QUOTE (Adarael) Your logic is faulty. By that rati... Nov 7 2007, 11:48 PM
Eurotroll In the context of SR, it arguably is. Hackers use ... Nov 7 2007, 11:49 PM
FrankTrollman QUOTE (Adarael) Your logic is faulty. By that rati... Nov 7 2007, 11:54 PM
Red Which definition of brain hacking is used here? I... Nov 8 2007, 12:04 AM
Seven-7 QUOTE (Red) Alas, that is not the definition of br... Nov 8 2007, 12:09 AM
raphabonelli I've been GMing SR4 for little time, but it... Nov 8 2007, 12:20 AM
hyzmarca QUOTE (FrankTrollman) It is not designed [...] per... Nov 8 2007, 12:22 AM
Cthulhudreams What everyone is ignoring with the productivity ar... Nov 8 2007, 12:42 AM
hyzmarca The risk is the same, either way. If the new drug ... Nov 8 2007, 01:17 AM
Seven-7 QUOTE (hyzmarca) 12+B = 2B
12+B-B = 2B-B
12+0 = 1... Nov 8 2007, 01:30 AM
Mercer It seems to me (an uneducated rube) that the neces... Nov 8 2007, 01:36 AM
Seven-7 I'm cool with you doing whatever the hell you ... Nov 8 2007, 01:48 AM
Red There is an enormous strawman here. There is a di... Nov 8 2007, 01:55 AM
Cthulhudreams QUOTE (hyzmarca @ Nov 7 2007, 08:17 PM) The r... Nov 8 2007, 01:57 AM
Gelare QUOTE (Mercer)...maybe Hackers do suck ass. ... Nov 8 2007, 02:14 AM
eidolon QUOTE (Mercer)1) Game Balance. Hackers suck unless... Nov 8 2007, 02:33 AM
WearzManySkins QUOTE (FrankTrollman)QUOTE (Adarael @ Nov 7 2... Nov 8 2007, 02:56 AM
Mercer QUOTE (Seven-7)I'm cool with you doing whateve... Nov 8 2007, 03:19 AM
Cthulhudreams QUOTE (Mercer @ Nov 7 2007, 10:19 PM) QUOTE (... Nov 8 2007, 03:29 AM
hyzmarca QUOTE 9,440,500,233,400,323,000,222
x 1,712,787,12... Nov 8 2007, 03:48 AM
blood_kite QUOTE (Gelare @ Nov 7 2007, 06:14 PM) When a ... Nov 8 2007, 03:59 AM
kzt QUOTE (Cthulhudreams) So.. yeah. Simple risk manag... Nov 8 2007, 04:27 AM
Hank There is an alternate fix to the inherent problem ... Nov 8 2007, 04:30 AM
Cthulhudreams QUOTE (kzt) QUOTE (Cthulhudreams @ Nov 7 2007... Nov 8 2007, 04:32 AM
Kyoto Kid QUOTE (blood_kite)Someone made a joke about hackin... Nov 8 2007, 04:40 AM
Gelare QUOTE (Mercer)@Gelare: You seem to be saying... Nov 8 2007, 04:42 AM
Seven-7 QUOTE (WearzManySkins) QUOTE (FrankTrollman)QUOTE ... Nov 8 2007, 04:56 AM
Cthulhudreams QUOTE (Gelare)
I honestly don't know what a s... Nov 8 2007, 05:03 AM
Gelare QUOTE (Cthulhudreams)QUOTE (Gelare @ Nov 7 20... Nov 8 2007, 05:10 AM
Fortune QUOTE (Gelare @ Nov 8 2007, 02:42 PM) One of ... Nov 8 2007, 05:13 AM
Gelare QUOTE (Fortune @ Nov 8 2007, 12:13 AM) QUOTE ... Nov 8 2007, 05:18 AM
Cthulhudreams QUOTE (Fortune @ Nov 8 2007, 12:13 AM) QUOTE ... Nov 8 2007, 05:20 AM
WearzManySkins QUOTE (Seven-7)QUOTE
Jack Shit
Why thank you but ... Nov 8 2007, 05:21 AM
kzt QUOTE (Gelare) You're really going to have to ... Nov 8 2007, 06:14 AM
Gelare QUOTE (kzt)QUOTE (Gelare @ Nov 7 2007, 10:18 ... Nov 8 2007, 06:25 AM
kzt QUOTE (Gelare) Needless to say, this is awful. Ha... Nov 8 2007, 06:59 AM
Fortune QUOTE (Gelare @ Nov 8 2007, 04:25 PM) Hackers... Nov 8 2007, 07:02 AM
Rotbart van Dainig QUOTE (FrankTrollman) People gain benefits from co... Nov 8 2007, 07:19 AM
Gelare QUOTE (Fortune)QUOTE (Gelare @ Nov 8 2007, 04... Nov 8 2007, 07:23 AM
mfb QUOTE (Fortune @ Nov 8 2007, 02:02 AM) QUOTE ... Nov 8 2007, 07:36 AM
Simon May God do I feel bad for taking the first shot at bra... Nov 8 2007, 07:39 AM
Fortune QUOTE (Gelare @ Nov 8 2007, 05:23 PM) It... Nov 8 2007, 07:51 AM
FrankTrollman The difference in "world" between what h... Nov 8 2007, 08:04 AM
Ryu First things first: Wikipedia on Game Theory (link... Nov 8 2007, 08:14 AM
mfb QUOTE (FrankTrollman)If you can successfully extra... Nov 8 2007, 08:24 AM
Cthulhudreams You're missing Three: Whats the cool thing to ... Nov 8 2007, 08:32 AM
Gelare QUOTE (Fortune)QUOTE (Gelare @ Nov 8 2007, 05... Nov 8 2007, 08:39 AM
Seven-7 QUOTE (mfb) QUOTE (FrankTrollman)If you can succes... Nov 8 2007, 08:42 AM
mfb if you want to consider that as being separate fro... Nov 8 2007, 08:42 AM
Seven-7 QUOTE (mfb) this has been true, in the game, for t... Nov 8 2007, 08:49 AM
mfb see my edited post, above, for more in-depth expla... Nov 8 2007, 08:52 AM
FrankTrollman QUOTE (mfb)regardless, while brainhacking can be i... Nov 8 2007, 08:55 AM
Seven-7 QUOTE (mfb) see my edited post, above, for more in... Nov 8 2007, 08:58 AM
mfb QUOTE (FrankTrollman)All I'm saying is that I ... Nov 8 2007, 09:06 AM
FrankTrollman QUOTE (mfb) QUOTE (FrankTrollman)All I'm sayin... Nov 8 2007, 09:18 AM
Seven-7 QUOTE (mfb) regardless, yes, this is exactly what ... Nov 8 2007, 09:21 AM
mfb i'm not pulling anything out of my ass at all.... Nov 8 2007, 09:29 AM
FrankTrollman QUOTE (mfb)i'm not pulling anything out of my ... Nov 8 2007, 09:37 AM
Cthulhudreams The model of computing he is proposing is so ubiti... Nov 8 2007, 09:42 AM
mfb QUOTE (FrankTrollman)A Hacker took control of a mi... Nov 8 2007, 09:49 AM
Kagetenshi Wait, what? Frank is arguing for brainhacking? I t... Nov 8 2007, 09:52 AM
Cthulhudreams And now for an question I'd like answered - ho... Nov 8 2007, 09:55 AM
Cthulhudreams QUOTE (mfb) QUOTE (FrankTrollman)A Hacker took con... Nov 8 2007, 09:59 AM
FrankTrollman mfb, I can't tell if you're being delibera... Nov 8 2007, 10:04 AM
Blade Ok, lots of good things exchanged in here. Some no... Nov 8 2007, 10:30 AM
hyzmarca QUOTE (FrankTrollman) People are bad at risk asses... Nov 8 2007, 10:36 AM
Kagetenshi QUOTE (FrankTrollman @ Nov 8 2007, 05:04 AM) ... Nov 8 2007, 10:47 AM
Blade Your aim is not to zero the probability of loss, i... Nov 8 2007, 10:49 AM
mfb QUOTE (FrankTrollman)A commlink can sed informatio... Nov 8 2007, 10:50 AM
Kagetenshi QUOTE (Blade) Your aim is not to zero the probabil... Nov 8 2007, 10:53 AM
Gelare QUOTE (Kagetenshi)QUOTE (Blade @ Nov 8 2007, ... Nov 8 2007, 11:08 AM
Blade Yes, maybe reward is a better term than benefits.
... Nov 8 2007, 11:13 AM
Cthulhudreams People think that living near high voltage power l... Nov 8 2007, 11:22 AM
Ryu QUOTE (Kagetenshi)
No. That is the Wikipedia artic... Nov 8 2007, 11:56 AM
raphabonelli QUOTE (mfb) i don't feel like digging through ... Nov 8 2007, 12:14 PM
HappyDaze QUOTE you don't have to hack a naked brain. al... Nov 8 2007, 01:27 PM
Blade QUOTE (Cthulhudreams) People think that living nea... Nov 8 2007, 01:49 PM
Fortune QUOTE (Gelare @ Nov 8 2007, 06:39 PM) But whe... Nov 8 2007, 02:07 PM
Mercer It seems like that if you make a character that ru... Nov 8 2007, 02:33 PM
FrankTrollman QUOTE (Kagetenshi) QUOTE (FrankTrollman @ Nov... Nov 8 2007, 03:11 PM
Kagetenshi Only if the IC is actually running on your brain, ... Nov 8 2007, 03:23 PM
FrankTrollman QUOTE (Kagetenshi) Only if the IC is actually runn... Nov 8 2007, 03:34 PM![]() ![]() |
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