Player questions I cannot answer, atleast to their degre of need Options

[swirler]

Okay so I figure I know the SR world pretty well, but sometimes some things I just can't answer, partly because well the question, IMHO doesn't really matter, or is not a pressing issue. Some people think too much. I'm not saying that thinking is bad, I'm just saying too much focus can be distracting. Sometimes you have to just "go along with it"

Anywho my problem is this. One of my players in the game I will be starting soon says there are certain things he can't understand about the SR world. Keep in mind, his perspective on D&D and Rogues is that if they were greedy or selfish enough to be rogues they would never go anywhere near traps or dungeons because they are too dangerous.

I will post a conversation we had about his questions. Maybe someone can help me with answers for him Player: Shadowrun is going to be a very difficult place to live through criminal endeavors.

[ Spoiler ]

Player: Shadowrun is going to be a very difficult place to live through criminal endeavors.

me: well it helps to be smart about them

Player: But how would you get paid? Everything is electronic, there's no hard currency anymore. It's

all traceable.
Easily traceable.

me: there are still certified cred sticks
and its not all traceable, well not if you know what you are doing or have people who know what

they are doing

Player: They would still have logged ID tags, like vin numbers. You would need some pretty good fake

IDs, plus the accounts to go with them. Even then there are a dozen red flags that many systems would

encounter.... but then, what is law enforcement like in Shadowrun. I'm using our standards of

security which, despite a few screw-ups and the efforts of highly dedicated, one-way terrorists, is

actually pretty good at what it does.

me: the certified just means they are guaranteed worth a certain amount based on type, not linked to

accounts and no system is perfect, beecause well RL certainly isnt and a game where security is

perfect would be bopring lol

Player: The money has to come from somewhere. That means records. You won't use real information

that can be tracked unless you have no choice or you are on legitimate business.

me: there are ways around it, trust me

Player: Well, for low-level "runs" that wouldn't be a problem. But there isn't really a lot of money

in that sort of thing.

me: and corps have special accounts for shadow ops that are set up to not leave trails much the way

the government does now

Player: Right, like I said. But, the average runner doesn't have access to that sort of thing, but if

he has an account that showing an inflow of money, that means income. In the majority of cases,

income means taxes. Tax records are where they get you.

me: umm most runners are sinless sinless dont get taxed

Player: The reason that I mention all this is because, in the U.S., the black market is a cash only

industry. They don't accept anything that can leave a paper trail.

me: and SR economies dont work that way, atleast not on average I dont think tax fraud really is

handled and actually the black market is often barter. trade for trade

Player: Your assuming that tax laws haven't changed between now and then. Also, don't forget about

property taxes. Even non-citizens have to pay property taxes on the land and buildings they own in

other countries.Ummm, but what about food, water, clothing, cell-phones.... you can't really barter

for everything. If you could, we wouldn't have needed to invent money.

me: we are talking about a world that has extra-territorailty for corporations.

Player: Which would make the mega-corps independant countries. So you use international law as a

basis for communication. Which would make the mega-corps independant countries. So you use

international law as a basis for communication.

me: okay, well just so you know, I'm not going to have a cybered up Eliot Ness come breaking down

your door because you arent paying taxes on your ill gotten gains lol

Player: But... that would be kinda' awesome!

me: im not saying Lone star or whoeever isnt going top nail you, but if they do its because you

screwed up or someone ratted you out or turned on you or whatever
for them to care about your taxes would mean they have a reason to come after you in the first

place and if they have that they will have more important stuff going on

Player: I think the biggest problem I'm having with seeing how this works out is I really don't

understand the present governments that have control of what used to be the U.S.

me: in what way? you mean how pervasive is the governemnent? well governments, I mean

Player: Standards of personal and property rights, import/export regulations, speech rights, rights

to privacy, expected surveillance levels, immigration controls, border policing, standing with their

neighbors, cultural attitudes toward firearms and recreational drugs. You know, the usual. Financial

regulations and business controls should also be on that list.

me: hmm you might post on dumpshock and ask that I'll see if i have any links that might have more

info. when im not busy

Player: Oh, and level of corruption in law enforcement. That's the one I was forgetting.

me: ah. as corrupt as it is in any corporation. all law enforcement is by corp now

Player: That's problematic.

me: lone star is a private corporation hired by the government to do policing. yep depends on the

country though. In aztlan, aztech private security do the cop gig basically
Seattle also has the metroplex guard

Player: Hmmm... depending upon the level of collusion to competition this could make things a lot

easier, or it could make life a hell for a runner.

me: depends on the area, who's asking and waht its for its all subjective

Player: Well, that's the way it works now, but at the present law enforcement is a government owned

monopoly. We're talking about private organizations and all the efficiency that can bring.

me: not all corps want to cooperate with the star, take ares, they are trying to win over the

policing job for seattle away from Lone star for their own cop company "Knight Errant" so they will

take every chance to make Lone Star look ussuless especially if said runners were working for them

Player: Yeah, but at the same time Lone Star should be trying to make themselves out to be the best

in law enforcement since Moses came down from the mount. Which means they'll be spending more and

making security tighter. It would be even better if they could catch some Knight Errant runners,

'cause then they'd have dirt on them that would drive them fromt the bidding war.

me: yes, but it would be the parent corp hiring them as deniable assets. agan its a "covering your

ass" kinda thing, no trails and all that
Johnsons would have their own hackers doing away with any electronic trails

Player: Which brings me back to the question: Who thought it was a good idea to give megacorps

extr-territorial standing?

me: the supreme court if I remember right. it had to do with corporations having the right to defend

their own. the corporate court is in place to keep the corps playing nioce now, of course
basically think of it this way, the corps arent the governments because they don't want to be, the

government has to deal with sewage and stuff like that. corps only have to take care of (somewhat)

the people that work for them, and provide them services

Player: ? That's just crazy talk. Modern corporations have had the legal right to use armed guards

to protect their property for decades. They wouldn't need any extra recognition to acquire what they

already have.

me: i cant really go into the whole thing
if you read the beginging of the main book it should give you enough of an idea
you have 3rd edition dont you?

Player: No, haven't had for a while.

me: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shadowrun_timeline
here's the timeline it might help some the info is all right near the beginning

Player: Yeah, but it's been written by people that don't seem to understand that these rights have

been in place since the days of piracy. Companies have always had the right to defend their property.

They didn't need extra-territoriality to do it. International law already allowed for this. The only

groups that they were defenseless against were search and seizure by legitimate governments.

me: but this deals with actually killing people

Player: Like I said before.

me: 2001: The Shiawase Decision

* The Shiawase court decision establishes extraterritoriality for megacorps when a radical eco-group

called TerraFirst! attacked a Shiawase nuclear power plant. Though the attack was repelled, the

corporation used the incident to convince the Supreme Court that major multinational corporations

need the ability to protect themselves. To this end, the Supreme Court granted major companies

extraterritoriality. (TerraFirst! manages later to acquire evidence that the attack was in fact a

setup with the intent to force the courts into granting sovereignty. However, before the group can

act on said information, their headquarters is destroyed and key members killed in what is considered

to be one of the first shadowruns.)

Player: But they already had legitimate right to defend, with lethal force if need be, themselves

and their property. The govts. handed them complete autonomy for nothing.

me: but they wanted more than what they had
thats kinda the point

Player: But why were the govts. stupid enough to agree to giving private citizines that level of

autonomy? What convinced them to give up that much power?

me: they were in trouble there were alot of things going on at the time and they were stretched thin
diseases, natural disasters the truckers strike mentioned
the idea is the governments were weak and ineffectual
and most offcials were owned by corporations, much like today

Player: Okay, let's say that you have a gun, and I have a gun. Let's say that I'm an evil bastard

that will try to take everything for myself if I could, and you know it. So I come up to you and tell

you that someone is attacking me and I need the means to defend myself. So, you hand me your gun?

me: but you cant always think of it in those simple terms
but yes with the right set up it could make sense
actually had that happen to me in a game once the thing the other guy didnt know is aI had a spoare

on my back

Player: Your right, it's not that simple. The U.S. should have used military transports to get food

into New York, and everywhere else it was needed while the truckers were on strike. Then there would

have been a horrendous number of reprisals made against the organizers of the strike, etc.

me: seriously, start a thread on dumpshock and ask these question, im sure there are plenty of

people who have been in it for years and have thought about this alot who could answer your questions

better than I can

Player: But your the one that is going to GM this, so your answers are the ones I need.

me: tell you what I will think about it and get back to you