Echolocation, Can a mage target with the bioware? Options

[Tarantula]

This came from the datajack thread. heres the quotes for discussion:

Ok, let me admend that to trodes with a sim module, can do everything a datajack can. Honestly, you don't get any extra functionality from a datajack that you can't get from trodes (and a sim module for softs).

You seem to think for nanopaste trodes to work, you need to dunk your head in the stuff pratically. I don't think its quite that wet and nasty. Differences of world view.

Lets see, they could always just stick deactivators into your datajack. Honestly, aruging that "it can't be taken away" isn't very strong, because by the time you lose ALL your gear, your GM is just letting you live out of courtesy.

As far as being better, I think a lot of logic based mages would jump at +1 LOG for drain a lot faster than "trodes that can't be taken away".

But, echolocation is biologically based, not technological, which is the all important distinction for spells.

Bwuh?

You can't target spells using echolocation!

It functions "like a true ultrasound system" which doesn't allow spell targetting. If it did allow the exception, it would specifically say so.

And why don't true ultrasound systems allow spell targetting? Because they're technological. Guess what, this isn't. Why shouldn't it let it?

And another point against datajacks, if someone hacks it, they can then use it to hack ALL your DNI enabled cyber. Trodes don't open the door like that.

It's not a simple tech/bio split.
Rather it's based more on whether you're actually seeing something vs. seeing an overlay of interpreted data.

The pit-viper gland is biological and it doesn't allow targetting.
Cybereyes are technological and DO allow targetting, even if you gain thermo vision.
Echolocation/ultrasound and radar don't.

Without an actual listed exception, the default is to use the rules they give you: "as echolocation" - which specifically disallows spell targetting.

If you've got a page reference for "any bio sense allows spell targetting" I'd love to see it.

SR4, 173, "Step 3: Choose the Target(s)
The next thing a magician must do when casting a spell is
choose her target(s). A spellcaster can target anyone or anything
she can see directly with her natural vision. Physical cyber- or
bio-enhancements paid for with Essence can be used to spot
targets, but any technological visual aids that substitute themselves
for the character’s own visual senses—cameras, electronic
binoculars, Matrix feeds, etc.—cannot be used."
Emphasis mine.

The ultrasound section (324 on SR4) and the Echolocation section (63-64 Aug) make no mention of spell targeting. Since the choose the targets section of spellcasting says any technological visual aids, and echolocation is not one, then it is a valid way to choose a target.