Nov 13 2008, 12:58 PM
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Target ![]() Group: Members Posts: 29 Joined: 3-November 06 Member No.: 9,767 |
Shadowrun - Great Game, Great Problems
In 1989, FASA came out with a game that is in my personal Top 5 roleplaying games of all time, Shadowrun. The world is great, the art is great, and the game is great. But the current setup in 4th Edition contains so many issues, I have had to force myself to even try and GM it for my players. So I thought about it for a little bit and came up with four of my biggest issues I have with 4th Edition Shadowrun. 1 – Characters start out too powerful – This actually is more of a gripe for my players. When you create your character, if you know the system well you can start out with pretty much everything you need to be powerful. There isn’t a lot of room for growth. Sure, you could upgrade the quality of your Street Samurai’s cyberware. Or, you could start making money and acquiring karma for those new foci your Mage needs. But bottom line, your main attributes and skills can easily start out at, or near, their max. If you take a character that has five sessions under their belt and compare him to what he started out at, often you’re not going to see a lot of change with the power level. 2 – Initiative passes – Although unique, the combat system is based around a system that can contain up to four initiative passes. Characters with one initiative pass are about 25% as effective as a character with four initiative passes. Not to mention the fact that a player with a character that has one initiative pass can pretty much go do laundry after his turn. By the time initiative pass two, three, and four are complete and he can actually do something again, that first load of laundry should be done. This pretty much makes cyberware or magical gifts that enhance your initiative passes a necessity. My players and I developed a one initiative pass combat system to test out. Every character received one ‘turn’ and those with multiple initiative passes from cyberware or magic received a dice pool award each turn, depending upon how many passes they were supposed to get. It actually turned out great and everyone loved it, but it required a complete retooling of the combat system. 3 – Being able to get 100+ armor – Okay now hear me out. This is more of a problem with too many modifiers than an actual armor issue. But when I read about this in the forums I thought, “You’ve got to be kidding me.� Now, the thought of a character sitting inside a vehicle, wearing full riot gear, holding two riots shields, with Gel-Packs, and various magic spells on him does seem ridiculous and completely implausible in a game where the GM has any control. However, I have had two different players in my campaigns each make characters (one Street Samurai, one Physical Adept) that consistently had between 35-45 dice to resist damage, depending on the circumstances. Each character was by the book and were plausible to encounter in the Shadowrun world. This can make it very difficult for a GM to challenge his players in normal combat, not to mention the issues with rolling 35-45 dice. 4 – Character play styles that don’t mix – This thought process is a little more abstract, but I think is one that is starting to go away with revisions in the game. Basically, having a group like a Technomancer, Street Samurai, Street Shaman, and a more normal character, say an Investigator. This seems like it could be a balanced group. However, the Technomancer wants to get lost in the Matrix and solve problems that way. A Street Samurai is going to want to muscle or shoot his way through everything. The Street Shaman may just go into astral space and do some scouting around while everyone else is busy. And the Investigator (or any other ‘normie’) doesn’t have the abilities or cyberware to follow any of these characters where they are going. Instead of being a well-balanced team, this can turn into four individuals trying to solve a problem four different ways just because of the way the system is setup. With all of this being said, Shadowrun still remains one of my favorite roleplaying games of all time. I’ve owned every edition of the game since it came out years ago. I have dozens of gaming books and have read most of the Shadowrun novels. But as the game continues to grow, the game seems to be growing more convoluted and problematic. I’d love to hear how other GMs and players have dealt with some of these issues in their campaigns! |
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SamVDW Shadowrun - Great Game, Great Problems Nov 13 2008, 12:58 PM
Fuchs 1) Availability plays an important role. A number ... Nov 13 2008, 01:32 PM
Rasumichin Let's see...
1 – Characters start out too ... Nov 13 2008, 01:33 PM
Blade How I deal with these issues:
1. Mages need a lot... Nov 13 2008, 01:46 PM
Warlordtheft QUOTE (Blade @ Nov 13 2008, 08:46 AM) 3. ... Nov 14 2008, 05:48 PM
Ryu 1) If the players don´t want to grow ingame, they... Nov 13 2008, 02:26 PM
SamVDW Fuchs, Rasumichin, Blade, and Ryu, thanks for resp... Nov 13 2008, 02:55 PM
Bobson QUOTE (SamVDW @ Nov 13 2008, 09:55 AM) Fu... Nov 13 2008, 04:24 PM
Blade Even if I agree that any character who wants to be... Nov 13 2008, 03:04 PM
Ancient History From a game designer standpoint, you have some leg... Nov 13 2008, 03:31 PM
DireRadiant The game is designed to permit a wide range of pla... Nov 13 2008, 03:38 PM
pbangarth In response to the OPs points:
1) There is no re... Nov 13 2008, 03:41 PM
ArkonC QUOTE (SamVDW @ Nov 13 2008, 02:58 PM) 2 ... Nov 13 2008, 03:50 PM
Jaid 1) 3rd edition D&D was designed so that it... Nov 13 2008, 05:10 PM
Platinum Dragon QUOTE (Jaid @ Nov 14 2008, 04:10 AM) 1) 3... Nov 14 2008, 02:02 AM
Jaid QUOTE (Platinum Dragon @ Nov 13 2008, 09... Nov 14 2008, 05:28 AM
TheOOB QUOTE (Platinum Dragon @ Nov 13 2008, 09... Nov 14 2008, 07:29 AM
psychophipps The one thing my group has found that helps break ... Nov 14 2008, 05:43 AM
Cain 1. Characters start out too powerful.
To a d... Nov 14 2008, 10:00 AM
MYST1C QUOTE (Cain @ Nov 14 2008, 11:00 AM) My r... Nov 14 2008, 01:26 PM
Chrysalis Hi
1. I find that mid-level characters are it. B... Nov 14 2008, 01:31 PM
BIG BAD BEESTE Well now, it seems as if most of the flaws you hav... Nov 14 2008, 01:51 PM
Fortune QUOTE (BIG BAD BEESTE @ Nov 15 2008, 12:5... Nov 14 2008, 02:04 PM
Bobson QUOTE (Fortune @ Nov 14 2008, 09:04 AM) I... Nov 14 2008, 02:54 PM

pbangarth QUOTE (Bobson @ Nov 14 2008, 08:54 AM) Wh... Nov 14 2008, 04:22 PM

Fortune QUOTE (Bobson @ Nov 15 2008, 01:54 AM) Wh... Nov 14 2008, 06:27 PM
BIG BAD BEESTE QUOTE (Fortune @ Nov 14 2008, 02:04 PM) I... Nov 20 2008, 02:50 PM
Warlordtheft QUOTE (BIG BAD BEESTE @ Nov 20 2008, 09:5... Nov 21 2008, 04:38 PM
Cain QUOTE (Warlordtheft @ Nov 21 2008, 08:38 ... Nov 22 2008, 02:45 AM
Glyph QUOTE (Cain @ Nov 21 2008, 08:45 PM) Mast... Nov 22 2008, 06:55 PM
Cain QUOTE Where do you place that cap?
Depends on what... Nov 14 2008, 02:36 PM
BIG BAD BEESTE QUOTE (Cain @ Nov 14 2008, 02:36 PM) No o... Nov 20 2008, 03:02 PM
Cain QUOTE (BIG BAD BEESTE @ Nov 20 2008, 07:0... Nov 20 2008, 11:25 PM
BIG BAD BEESTE QUOTE (Cain @ Nov 20 2008, 11:25 PM) We... Nov 21 2008, 01:07 PM
SamVDW Great replies. I love Dumpshock.
1 - One of the ... Nov 14 2008, 05:20 PM
Jaid QUOTE (SamVDW @ Nov 14 2008, 12:20 PM) 4 ... Nov 14 2008, 06:39 PM
TheOOB As a GM you have to be willing to talk to your pla... Nov 14 2008, 06:29 PM
Chrysalis QUOTE (TheOOB @ Nov 14 2008, 08:29 PM) As... Nov 14 2008, 09:33 PM
krayola red The thing I don't like about reducing BPs is t... Nov 14 2008, 06:32 PM
Blade Or just let your players create their characters t... Nov 14 2008, 06:46 PM
Ryu One of my players has now created a minotaur with ... Nov 14 2008, 10:40 PM
psychophipps QUOTE (Ryu @ Nov 14 2008, 02:40 PM) One o... Nov 14 2008, 11:05 PM

Chrysalis QUOTE (psychophipps @ Nov 15 2008, 01:05 ... Nov 15 2008, 09:04 AM

Ryu QUOTE (psychophipps @ Nov 15 2008, 12:05 ... Nov 20 2008, 09:23 PM
Thadeus Bearpaw QUOTE (Ryu @ Nov 14 2008, 04:40 PM) One o... Nov 15 2008, 03:52 AM
TheOOB QUOTE (Thadeus Bearpaw @ Nov 14 2008, 10... Nov 15 2008, 04:04 AM
Thadeus Bearpaw QUOTE (TheOOB @ Nov 14 2008, 10:04 PM) Ge... Nov 15 2008, 04:11 AM
Cain QUOTE (Fortune @ Nov 14 2008, 10:27 AM) W... Nov 15 2008, 03:27 AM
TheOOB The fact is, as long as you don't let things g... Nov 15 2008, 09:13 AM
Tachi QUOTE (psychophipps @ Nov 13 2008, 10:43 ... Nov 15 2008, 09:32 AM
masterofm As a GM it is tough trying combat certain characte... Nov 16 2008, 02:27 AM
Jaid i don't recall anyone saying it's the GM... Nov 16 2008, 07:44 PM
Dr Funfrock OK, I'll drop my two cents here (I'm afrai... Nov 16 2008, 08:37 PM
Cain QUOTE 3) I used to think this was a problem, until... Nov 16 2008, 09:32 PM
Glyph Hmm. I kind of agree with part of that, and disag... Nov 16 2008, 10:33 PM
masterofm My post was not directed towards you Jaid, but the... Nov 16 2008, 10:47 PM
Stahlseele yes, while with mcmackies NSRCG3 character creatio... Nov 16 2008, 10:53 PM
Ryu There is more leeway now, but in the beginning dir... Nov 21 2008, 01:34 PM
Jaid i dunno about the 5 players, 5 different roles.
h... Nov 21 2008, 06:44 PM
masterofm I have known people to give up the game just tryin... Nov 21 2008, 07:25 PM![]() ![]() |
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