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> Bad statistics make a weak argument, the Illusion issue in SR4A
pbangarth
post Mar 20 2009, 11:08 PM
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In several threads, people are arguing that the OR changes in SR4A make Illusion spells that affect objects unusable. Examples given to support this argument often use a dicepool of 14, saying this dicepool has a roughly 50% chance to affect OR 4, and is out to lunch for OR 6.

This would appear to be based on the idea that 14 dice X the 1/3 chance for each die comes up with 4 and a bit. I think this is seen as being halfway, as people say "on average, 4 hits". I thought about this a bit and figured people are not taking into account all the possible outcomes better than 4 hits. I wasn't sure of the math, so I asked a mathematician on Allexperts.com for a formula for "n dice needing at least h hits". He came back with three methods for calculating the answer. I am still communicating with him, as the first and third methods given currently (as of this posting) use 1/6 rather than 1/3, but I used the second method (long and tedious!) to come up with the following:

Dice pool of 14:

4 hits or better: 73.88 %

6 hits or better: 31.02 %


My conclusion from this? Illusion spells are NOT being nerfed/jerked around/made useless by the SR4A OR changes. They HAVE gone from near infallibility to being effective against even THE WORST STUFF almost one third of the time.

PS. I am extrapolating that the dice pool 18+ characters will still be in the 75% range for OR 6.

EDIT: This arithmetic applies to all spells' dice pools by the way.
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Posts in this topic
- pbangarth   Bad statistics make a weak argument   Mar 20 2009, 11:08 PM
- - Draco18s   After much head banging and trying to remember my ...   Mar 20 2009, 11:52 PM
|- - AllTheNothing   QUOTE (Draco18s @ Mar 21 2009, 12:52 AM) ...   Mar 21 2009, 11:45 AM
|- - Draco18s   QUOTE (AllTheNothing @ Mar 21 2009, 06:45...   Mar 21 2009, 01:34 PM
|- - Demerzel   QUOTE (Draco18s @ Mar 21 2009, 06:34 AM) ...   Mar 21 2009, 02:29 PM
|- - Draco18s   QUOTE (Demerzel @ Mar 21 2009, 09:29 AM) ...   Mar 22 2009, 02:27 AM
- - BlueMax   I think you are both wrong. The chance of success...   Mar 21 2009, 12:04 AM
|- - Shinobi Killfist   QUOTE (BlueMax @ Mar 20 2009, 07:04 PM) I...   Mar 21 2009, 02:35 AM
- - Demerzel   Boy, I wish I still had the PDFs I made of the pro...   Mar 21 2009, 12:15 AM
- - Draco18s   Just a quick note: DP 12: 26.97% for 4 7.89% for ...   Mar 21 2009, 12:28 AM
- - Werewindlefr   QUOTE (pbangarth @ Mar 20 2009, 07:08 PM)...   Mar 21 2009, 03:21 AM
|- - pbangarth   QUOTE (Werewindlefr @ Mar 20 2009, 08:21 ...   Mar 21 2009, 03:43 AM
|- - Werewindlefr   QUOTE (pbangarth @ Mar 20 2009, 11:43 PM)...   Mar 21 2009, 04:54 AM
|- - Malicant   QUOTE (pbangarth @ Mar 21 2009, 04:43 AM)...   Mar 21 2009, 01:24 PM
|- - Jaid   QUOTE (Malicant @ Mar 21 2009, 08:24 AM) ...   Mar 21 2009, 08:18 PM
|- - Malicant   QUOTE (Jaid @ Mar 21 2009, 09:18 PM) magi...   Mar 22 2009, 12:57 PM
- - suppenhuhn   If i remember correctly 400 BP characters are supp...   Mar 21 2009, 03:42 AM
|- - pbangarth   QUOTE (suppenhuhn @ Mar 20 2009, 08:42 PM...   Mar 21 2009, 03:49 AM
|- - suppenhuhn   QUOTE (pbangarth @ Mar 21 2009, 04:49 AM)...   Mar 21 2009, 04:12 AM
|- - pbangarth   QUOTE (suppenhuhn @ Mar 20 2009, 10:12 PM...   Mar 21 2009, 04:19 AM
|- - Zurai   QUOTE (pbangarth @ Mar 20 2009, 11:19 PM)...   Mar 21 2009, 04:23 AM
|- - suppenhuhn   QUOTE (pbangarth @ Mar 21 2009, 05:19 AM)...   Mar 21 2009, 05:06 AM
|- - Mordinvan   QUOTE (pbangarth @ Mar 20 2009, 10:19 PM)...   Mar 21 2009, 06:28 AM
- - Demerzel   6 dice attack against 4 dice defense gets 1 or mor...   Mar 21 2009, 04:55 AM
- - Zurai   Not to mention he'd be forced to max-overcast ...   Mar 21 2009, 06:46 AM
|- - Cain   QUOTE (Zurai @ Mar 20 2009, 11:46 PM) Not...   Mar 21 2009, 07:17 AM
|- - Zurai   QUOTE (Cain @ Mar 21 2009, 02:17 AM) Well...   Mar 21 2009, 07:30 AM
|- - Cain   QUOTE (Zurai @ Mar 21 2009, 12:30 AM) Edg...   Mar 21 2009, 07:45 AM
|- - Zurai   QUOTE (Cain @ Mar 21 2009, 03:45 AM) I do...   Mar 21 2009, 05:37 PM
- - Ryu   Feshy has written something very useful for SR sta...   Mar 21 2009, 09:33 AM
- - Rotbart van Dainig   QUOTE (pbangarth @ Mar 21 2009, 12:08 AM)...   Mar 21 2009, 12:55 PM
- - pbangarth   Yes, I used a method including binomial distributi...   Mar 21 2009, 04:26 PM
- - GrafZhL   For everyone who is still interested in probabilit...   Mar 21 2009, 08:49 PM
|- - knasser   QUOTE (GrafZhL @ Mar 21 2009, 08:49 PM) F...   Mar 21 2009, 08:53 PM
|- - AllTheNothing   QUOTE (GrafZhL @ Mar 21 2009, 09:49 PM) F...   Mar 21 2009, 10:17 PM
- - knasser   How did we get to 14 dice being sufficient? Even i...   Mar 21 2009, 08:52 PM
|- - Demerzel   QUOTE (knasser @ Mar 21 2009, 12:52 PM) H...   Mar 21 2009, 09:11 PM
|- - The Mack   QUOTE (knasser @ Mar 22 2009, 05:52 AM) H...   Mar 22 2009, 10:15 AM
- - Mr. Unpronounceable   You missed step 2.5: if mage takes more than a box...   Mar 21 2009, 09:18 PM
|- - Demerzel   QUOTE (Mr. Unpronounceable @ Mar 21 2009, 02...   Mar 22 2009, 04:48 AM
- - knasser   Mr. Unpronouncable beat me to it, but yes - drain ...   Mar 21 2009, 10:00 PM
|- - AllTheNothing   QUOTE (knasser @ Mar 21 2009, 11:00 PM) M...   Mar 21 2009, 10:51 PM
- - Shinobi Killfist   another factor in the OR 6 thing to work into your...   Mar 21 2009, 10:59 PM
- - pbangarth   OK, so I had to check through a selection of posts...   Mar 22 2009, 04:19 AM
|- - Zurai   QUOTE (pbangarth @ Mar 21 2009, 11:19 PM)...   Mar 22 2009, 05:06 AM
||- - Draco18s   QUOTE (Zurai @ Mar 22 2009, 12:06 AM) I...   Mar 22 2009, 05:43 AM
||- - knasser   QUOTE (Draco18s @ Mar 22 2009, 05:43 AM) ...   Mar 22 2009, 09:24 AM
||- - Zormal   QUOTE (knasser @ Mar 22 2009, 11:24 AM) I...   Mar 22 2009, 12:38 PM
||- - The Mack   QUOTE (knasser @ Mar 22 2009, 06:24 PM) I...   Mar 22 2009, 02:01 PM
|||- - knasser   QUOTE (The Mack @ Mar 22 2009, 02:01 PM) ...   Mar 22 2009, 02:26 PM
||- - pbangarth   QUOTE (knasser @ Mar 22 2009, 03:24 AM) I...   Mar 22 2009, 06:27 PM
||- - knasser   QUOTE (pbangarth @ Mar 22 2009, 06:27 PM)...   Mar 22 2009, 07:49 PM
|- - Ryu   One interesting fact for the discussion at hand is...   Mar 22 2009, 11:08 AM
- - Tunnel Rat   Actually, instead of calculating out the dice pool...   Mar 22 2009, 08:54 AM
- - Draco18s   What are their dice pools?   Mar 22 2009, 09:07 AM
- - GrafZhL   Combat mage Magic: 5 Edge: 2 Spellcasting: 5 Both,...   Mar 22 2009, 09:24 AM
|- - knasser   Nice idea. Using your own probability calculator, ...   Mar 22 2009, 09:45 AM
- - suppenhuhn   Ignite really isn't nerfed that much by the ne...   Mar 22 2009, 02:32 PM
|- - knasser   QUOTE (suppenhuhn @ Mar 22 2009, 02:32 PM...   Mar 22 2009, 02:34 PM
|- - The Mack   QUOTE (knasser @ Mar 22 2009, 11:34 PM) A...   Mar 22 2009, 02:42 PM
|- - knasser   QUOTE (The Mack @ Mar 22 2009, 02:42 PM) ...   Mar 22 2009, 03:05 PM
|- - AllTheNothing   QUOTE (knasser @ Mar 22 2009, 04:05 PM) H...   Mar 22 2009, 03:39 PM
- - Malicant   Female guards using this... technique could be ver...   Mar 22 2009, 04:24 PM
- - pbangarth   I don't even know if this is a 'fix' a...   Mar 22 2009, 08:03 PM
- - knasser   QUOTE (pbangarth @ Mar 22 2009, 08:03 PM)...   Mar 22 2009, 08:11 PM


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