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Cain
post Aug 14 2010, 09:06 PM
Post #1


Grand Master of Run-Fu
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Group: Dumpshocked
Posts: 6,840
Joined: 26-February 02
From: Tir Tairngire
Member No.: 178



QUOTE
So let me get this straight, just to be on the same page here...

If my character spends time observing his opposition, obtaining information on his hangouts, his preferences, his equipment, his operational tactics, his spell selections, and his tactics, then I am Cheating? If that is not the case, then why would it be cheating for an NPC to perform the same surveillance to acquire the same information? And, having gathered that information, why would it be cheating to pass it along to his allies so that they will be prepared whenever they encounter said character (Ad infinitum, of course).

It is not the Fault of a GM if characters become predictable in their operations, spell useage, equipment choices, or tactics.

In the case I mentioned, every NPC and his brother knew the PC's preferred tactics and magic items. They knew that all had Rings of Fire Resistance, so suddenly all the mages stopped throwing fire spells. What's more, in the example that started it all, the NPC's deduced the PC's entire gear set and tactics off the fact they had something with a Device rating of 6 (and the attendant Signal rating). That is cheating.

From your posts in the other thread, I know you think GM cheating is okay. Unfortunately, it isn't-- metagaming your knowledge to one PC is bad enough, but giving it to a lot of NPC's is even worse.
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Posts in this topic
- Cain   Metagaming   Aug 14 2010, 09:06 PM
- - Grinder   The other thread Cain is talking about (and more s...   Aug 14 2010, 09:23 PM
- - Redcrow   I personally hate meta-gaming both by players and ...   Aug 14 2010, 09:28 PM
- - Cain   I think we'll all agree that the GM has the ri...   Aug 14 2010, 09:32 PM
|- - Medicineman   QUOTE (Cain @ Aug 14 2010, 05:32 PM) I th...   Aug 16 2010, 08:22 AM
- - suoq   Houserule: Anyone who doesn't allow the GM to ...   Aug 14 2010, 09:33 PM
- - Abschalten   Oh, I fudge dice rolls all the time, but usually i...   Aug 14 2010, 09:33 PM
- - Mooncrow   Any good GM is forced to metagame to an extent - y...   Aug 14 2010, 09:38 PM
|- - Cain   QUOTE (Mooncrow @ Aug 14 2010, 01:38 PM) ...   Aug 14 2010, 09:44 PM
||- - Abschalten   QUOTE (Cain @ Aug 14 2010, 05:44 PM) Ther...   Aug 14 2010, 09:47 PM
|- - Tymeaus Jalynsfein   QUOTE (Mooncrow @ Aug 14 2010, 03:38 PM) ...   Aug 14 2010, 09:49 PM
|- - Cain   QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Aug 14 2010, 02...   Aug 14 2010, 10:30 PM
- - Mooncrow   Yes, there's a difference to an extent, but on...   Aug 14 2010, 09:48 PM
|- - Sephiroth   QUOTE (Mooncrow @ Aug 14 2010, 09:48 PM) ...   Aug 14 2010, 10:37 PM
|- - Mooncrow   QUOTE (Sephiroth @ Aug 14 2010, 05:37 PM)...   Aug 14 2010, 10:42 PM
- - suoq   apparently my sense of humor with regards to stick...   Aug 14 2010, 09:54 PM
|- - Tymeaus Jalynsfein   QUOTE (suoq @ Aug 14 2010, 03:54 PM) appa...   Aug 14 2010, 10:08 PM
- - codemonkey_uk   Okay, I may be new to Shadowrun, but I've been...   Aug 14 2010, 10:21 PM
|- - Mooncrow   QUOTE (codemonkey_uk @ Aug 14 2010, 05:21...   Aug 14 2010, 10:32 PM
|- - StealthSigma   QUOTE (Mooncrow @ Aug 14 2010, 06:32 PM) ...   Aug 16 2010, 03:08 PM
|- - Mooncrow   QUOTE (StealthSigma @ Aug 16 2010, 11:08 ...   Aug 16 2010, 07:48 PM
- - Kruger   Meta-gaming is pretty much always wrong, no matter...   Aug 14 2010, 11:36 PM
|- - Mooncrow   QUOTE (Kruger @ Aug 14 2010, 06:36 PM) Me...   Aug 14 2010, 11:46 PM
|- - Kruger   QUOTE (Mooncrow @ Aug 14 2010, 03:46 PM) ...   Aug 14 2010, 11:50 PM
|- - Mooncrow   QUOTE (Kruger @ Aug 14 2010, 06:50 PM) It...   Aug 14 2010, 11:54 PM
- - Yerameyahu   To be fair to (I think it was suoq?), his example ...   Aug 14 2010, 11:42 PM
|- - Redcrow   QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Aug 14 2010, 11:42 PM...   Aug 15 2010, 12:15 AM
- - Kruger   Writing an adventure to challenge the players isn...   Aug 14 2010, 11:45 PM
- - Kruger   QUOTE Metagaming is a broad term usually used to d...   Aug 15 2010, 12:08 AM
- - Mooncrow   QUOTE (Kruger @ Aug 14 2010, 07:08 PM) Mo...   Aug 15 2010, 12:21 AM
|- - Kruger   QUOTE (Mooncrow @ Aug 14 2010, 04:21 PM) ...   Aug 15 2010, 12:39 AM
|- - Mooncrow   QUOTE (Kruger @ Aug 14 2010, 07:39 PM) Th...   Aug 15 2010, 12:51 AM
|- - Tymeaus Jalynsfein   QUOTE (Mooncrow @ Aug 14 2010, 05:51 PM) ...   Aug 15 2010, 01:04 AM
|- - Grinder   QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Aug 15 2010, 03...   Aug 15 2010, 07:33 AM
|- - Tymeaus Jalynsfein   QUOTE (Grinder @ Aug 15 2010, 01:33 AM) ...   Aug 15 2010, 02:35 PM
|- - Kruger   QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Aug 15 2010, 06...   Aug 15 2010, 08:06 PM
|- - Mooncrow   QUOTE (Kruger @ Aug 15 2010, 04:06 PM) I...   Aug 15 2010, 08:24 PM
|- - Tymeaus Jalynsfein   QUOTE (Kruger @ Aug 15 2010, 02:06 PM) I...   Aug 16 2010, 02:57 AM
||- - Kruger   QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Aug 15 2010, 07...   Aug 16 2010, 08:37 AM
||- - Tymeaus Jalynsfein   QUOTE (Kruger @ Aug 16 2010, 01:37 AM) To...   Aug 16 2010, 11:36 PM
|- - Grinder   QUOTE (Kruger @ Aug 15 2010, 10:06 PM) I...   Aug 16 2010, 05:07 AM
- - Kruger   I would imagine that the guards at any kind of cor...   Aug 15 2010, 12:25 AM
|- - imperialus   QUOTE (Kruger @ Aug 14 2010, 05:25 PM) I ...   Aug 16 2010, 04:27 PM
|- - Glyph   QUOTE (imperialus @ Aug 16 2010, 09:27 AM...   Aug 17 2010, 01:52 AM
|- - suoq   QUOTE (Glyph @ Aug 16 2010, 07:52 PM) Fir...   Aug 17 2010, 02:28 AM
- - Kruger   Your example leaves much to be desired. And even ...   Aug 15 2010, 01:05 AM
|- - Mooncrow   QUOTE (Kruger @ Aug 14 2010, 08:05 PM) Yo...   Aug 15 2010, 01:15 AM
- - Kruger   Ahh. I see we're hung up on the use of the te...   Aug 15 2010, 01:29 AM
|- - Mooncrow   QUOTE (Kruger @ Aug 14 2010, 08:29 PM) Ah...   Aug 15 2010, 01:38 AM
- - DrZaius   Not to get in the middle of a big argument here, b...   Aug 15 2010, 01:55 AM
|- - Johnny Hammersticks   QUOTE (DrZaius @ Aug 14 2010, 08:55 PM) N...   Aug 15 2010, 01:59 AM
- - Kruger   Not beating a dead horse, but the prefix "met...   Aug 15 2010, 01:59 AM
|- - Johnny Hammersticks   QUOTE (Kruger @ Aug 14 2010, 08:59 PM) No...   Aug 15 2010, 02:01 AM
|- - Mooncrow   QUOTE (Kruger @ Aug 14 2010, 08:59 PM) I ...   Aug 15 2010, 02:13 AM
- - Kruger   Hence the word "might". I'm pretty ...   Aug 15 2010, 02:05 AM
- - Kruger   Agreeing to disagree and dropping semantics, let...   Aug 15 2010, 02:26 AM
|- - Tymeaus Jalynsfein   QUOTE (Kruger @ Aug 14 2010, 07:26 PM) Ag...   Aug 15 2010, 02:30 AM
- - Badmoodguy88   Two definitions of interest. For things like this ...   Aug 15 2010, 03:57 AM
|- - Kruger   QUOTE (Badmoodguy88 @ Aug 14 2010, 07:57 ...   Aug 15 2010, 04:19 AM
|- - toturi   QUOTE (Kruger @ Aug 15 2010, 12:19 PM) I ...   Aug 15 2010, 04:38 AM
|- - KarmaInferno   QUOTE (Kruger @ Aug 14 2010, 11:19 PM) I ...   Aug 15 2010, 04:39 AM
- - Saint Sithney   As long as things make sense internally, it isn...   Aug 15 2010, 04:07 AM
- - Voran   Gming has always been an art. Sure you can just b...   Aug 15 2010, 06:16 AM
- - Bull   *shrug* I'm telling a story when I GM. The p...   Aug 15 2010, 06:26 AM
|- - Cain   QUOTE (Bull @ Aug 14 2010, 10:26 PM) *shr...   Aug 15 2010, 08:30 AM
|- - Bull   QUOTE (Cain @ Aug 15 2010, 04:30 AM) If t...   Aug 16 2010, 04:53 AM
- - Yerameyahu   I don't see it as black and white. The questio...   Aug 15 2010, 01:32 PM
- - suoq   The thing to remember about metagaming was that th...   Aug 15 2010, 02:21 PM
- - Fatum   Frankly, I fail to understand your problem. Just l...   Aug 15 2010, 07:10 PM
- - Glyph   Metagaming is a tricky thing to manage. On the on...   Aug 15 2010, 07:54 PM
- - Kruger   Well, and to be fair, I wasn't insulted. It w...   Aug 15 2010, 08:57 PM
- - Blade   In my campaigns I have to do the thinking of NPCs ...   Aug 16 2010, 09:30 AM
- - sabs   This is why I tend to use dice for these things. ...   Aug 16 2010, 01:47 PM
- - KarmaInferno   Except, if we're talking about Shadowrun Missi...   Aug 16 2010, 03:18 PM
|- - StealthSigma   QUOTE (KarmaInferno @ Aug 16 2010, 11:18 ...   Aug 16 2010, 03:43 PM
|- - suoq   QUOTE (KarmaInferno @ Aug 16 2010, 10:18 ...   Aug 16 2010, 04:59 PM
- - nezumi   I'm with Bull. I set my NPC's knowledge of...   Aug 16 2010, 06:13 PM
- - suoq   To add to nezumi's post, there is a point to s...   Aug 16 2010, 06:57 PM
- - tete   I cheat a lot, mostly because I run "off the ...   Aug 16 2010, 08:09 PM
- - DireRadiant   I cheat a lot. Or maybe not. Who knows, I haven...   Aug 16 2010, 08:50 PM
- - KarmaInferno   I think it's important to note that WHY a GM m...   Aug 16 2010, 10:37 PM
- - Cain   The point is that , if you didn't think of it,...   Aug 16 2010, 11:21 PM
|- - tete   QUOTE (Cain @ Aug 17 2010, 12:21 AM) Unfa...   Aug 16 2010, 11:37 PM
|- - suoq   QUOTE (Cain @ Aug 16 2010, 05:21 PM) The ...   Aug 17 2010, 02:07 AM
|- - Cain   QUOTE (suoq @ Aug 16 2010, 06:07 PM) What...   Aug 17 2010, 03:19 AM
|- - KarmaInferno   QUOTE (Cain @ Aug 16 2010, 10:19 PM) Only...   Aug 17 2010, 04:43 AM
- - EndoFury   Bull's games sound awesome!!   Aug 17 2010, 12:15 AM
- - Glyph   Security guards are all but indentured servants to...   Aug 17 2010, 02:43 AM
|- - suoq   QUOTE (Glyph @ Aug 16 2010, 08:43 PM) Sec...   Aug 17 2010, 03:03 AM
|- - imperialus   QUOTE (suoq @ Aug 16 2010, 08:03 PM) Cons...   Aug 17 2010, 04:56 AM
- - Yerameyahu   You're arguing extremes. There's plenty of...   Aug 17 2010, 03:22 AM
|- - Cain   QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Aug 16 2010, 07:22 PM...   Aug 17 2010, 03:31 AM
|- - toturi   QUOTE (Cain @ Aug 17 2010, 11:31 AM) Grun...   Aug 17 2010, 03:49 AM
|- - Mooncrow   QUOTE (Cain @ Aug 16 2010, 11:31 PM) Yes,...   Aug 17 2010, 05:24 AM
- - Darkeus   Man this forum is so stuck in their ways. Eh, the...   Aug 17 2010, 04:17 AM
- - Redcrow   If PCs routinely attempt the same tactics when inf...   Aug 17 2010, 04:31 AM
- - Cain   If the PC's routinely use the same tactics, th...   Aug 17 2010, 04:40 AM
|- - Redcrow   QUOTE (Cain @ Aug 17 2010, 04:40 AM) If t...   Aug 17 2010, 04:45 AM
- - KarmaInferno   As I pointed out earlier, metagaming CAN be used t...   Aug 17 2010, 04:50 AM
- - Yerameyahu   You ignored my point entirely: we're *not* tal...   Aug 17 2010, 05:46 AM
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