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> Transhumanism or superheroes - without essence cost, how hard would the game break?, When money and BP/Karma are the only factor...
Brainpiercing7.6...
post Feb 10 2012, 04:29 PM
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So I keep thinking about this: how important is essence as a game balance tool? (Because it certainly serves pretty poorly as anything else.)

So now there are two train of thoughts here:

1) Every character, as in, special person, is awakened for free, and does NOT suffer magic loss, either. People who wish to be mundane can cash in on their magical quality (5bp/10karma for adept).

2) magic loss is the only consequence of augmentation

Even cursorily glancing through the books brings me to a money stop when starting to install serious cyber/bio. Also, bioware instantly loses some of it's advantage, since you're not splitting the pool anymore, and the high cost holds it back. The only way to make really filthy use of it is using used cyber. Also, a lot of ware needs Restricted gear at a useful rating, so you're not buying endless high rating wares.

So basically, how much does the game turn into a clash of demigods? Is this like epic D&D, where the game basically breaks, or does the scale simply shift? I'm thinking the game is actually less likely to break, because DP creep is less bad than bonus creep with a fixed RNG. What will likely happen first is that characters will not only have obscene offensive DPs, but rather obscene defenses, too, due to cyberlimbs/armour/dermal sheath/etc. So will the game overall become more deadly, or less?

The other thing is that now fairly well-rounded characters can still have large DPs in some areas. When playing around with DK's sheet a bit I immediately don't find my attempt at a character much more extreme than some of the chars posted on these boards - however, he can sport a 20dice offensive pool while still having around 30+dice for damage resistance (which clearly isn't really that much). I also don't need to min-max much.

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- Brainpiercing7.62mm   Transhumanism or superheroes - without essence cost, how hard would the game break?   Feb 10 2012, 04:29 PM
- - Yerameyahu   Given that everything was designed with Essence in...   Feb 10 2012, 04:41 PM
- - Hida Tsuzua   Do technomancers lose resonance as well? If not, ...   Feb 10 2012, 05:28 PM
- - JanessaVR   This is basically what I've been advocating fo...   Feb 10 2012, 06:13 PM
- - Irion   @JanessaVR It would end up with characters having ...   Feb 10 2012, 06:50 PM
|- - JanessaVR   QUOTE (Irion @ Feb 10 2012, 10:50 AM) @Ja...   Feb 10 2012, 08:18 PM
- - Yerameyahu   I agree: mentioning magic in this equation is real...   Feb 10 2012, 07:38 PM
- - Yerameyahu   Well, one problem is that this would totally chang...   Feb 10 2012, 08:21 PM
|- - JanessaVR   QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Feb 10 2012, 12:21 PM...   Feb 10 2012, 08:40 PM
- - 3278   I played around with it with my own group some yea...   Feb 10 2012, 08:31 PM
- - Yerameyahu   Honestly, it depends on the game you want (not the...   Feb 10 2012, 08:33 PM
|- - 3278   QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Feb 10 2012, 09:33 PM...   Feb 10 2012, 09:04 PM
- - Yerameyahu   Better or worse, it's a significant history an...   Feb 10 2012, 08:53 PM
- - Yerameyahu   This change makes it even easier in SR4 to start a...   Feb 10 2012, 09:31 PM
|- - 3278   QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Feb 10 2012, 10:31 PM...   Feb 10 2012, 10:10 PM
- - Brainpiercing7.62mm   Maybe with some real cyber concealability rules bi...   Feb 10 2012, 09:41 PM
- - Yerameyahu   … No? There's a set number and ratings of the ...   Feb 10 2012, 10:31 PM
|- - 3278   QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Feb 10 2012, 10:31 PM...   Feb 11 2012, 02:18 AM
- - Udoshi   QUOTE (Brainpiercing7.62mm @ Feb 10 2012, 09...   Feb 10 2012, 10:37 PM
- - Irion   @3278 They do not need to, they just take MORE. It...   Feb 11 2012, 02:27 AM
|- - 3278   QUOTE (Irion @ Feb 11 2012, 02:27 AM) @32...   Feb 11 2012, 02:47 AM
|- - Neraph   QUOTE (3278 @ Feb 10 2012, 08:47 PM) We...   Feb 11 2012, 07:10 AM
- - Yerameyahu   I'm not saying they'd be at 100%, 3278. I...   Feb 11 2012, 02:43 AM
- - Irion   @3278 Starting characters would be limited by Avai...   Feb 11 2012, 02:55 AM
|- - 3278   QUOTE (Irion @ Feb 11 2012, 02:55 AM) Sta...   Feb 11 2012, 03:06 AM
- - Yerameyahu   Too right.   Feb 11 2012, 10:47 AM
- - GreyBrother   I have no problem with killing essence. Heck, i pr...   Feb 11 2012, 01:14 PM
- - hobgoblin   Between deltaware and cyberware suites, you do not...   Feb 11 2012, 02:13 PM
|- - Tymeaus Jalynsfein   QUOTE (hobgoblin @ Feb 11 2012, 07:13 AM)...   Feb 12 2012, 06:06 PM
- - Irion   @hobgoblin Yeah, but those cost a lot of money... ...   Feb 11 2012, 02:37 PM
|- - hobgoblin   QUOTE (Irion @ Feb 11 2012, 03:37 PM) @ho...   Feb 11 2012, 02:51 PM
- - Irion   @hobgoblin Depends on your game... Yes, if you thr...   Feb 11 2012, 03:01 PM
- - nezumi   It would put mundanes and mages on more similar ad...   Feb 11 2012, 03:17 PM
- - Irion   The point is, you are tweaking the powerlevel sign...   Feb 11 2012, 03:51 PM
|- - GreyBrother   QUOTE (Irion @ Feb 11 2012, 04:51 PM) And...   Feb 11 2012, 04:04 PM
||- - 3278   QUOTE (GreyBrother @ Feb 11 2012, 04:04 P...   Feb 12 2012, 12:29 AM
|- - Brainpiercing7.62mm   QUOTE (Irion @ Feb 11 2012, 04:51 PM) The...   Feb 11 2012, 04:19 PM
- - Yerameyahu   While I don't think anyone considers the Avail...   Feb 11 2012, 04:24 PM
|- - Brainpiercing7.62mm   QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Feb 11 2012, 05:24 PM...   Feb 11 2012, 04:29 PM
|- - GreyBrother   QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Feb 11 2012, 05:24 PM...   Feb 11 2012, 09:23 PM
- - Yerameyahu   Yes, both of those are basically the same thing as...   Feb 11 2012, 05:01 PM
- - Yerameyahu   Oh, I didn't realize you were talking about th...   Feb 11 2012, 09:46 PM
|- - 3278   QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Feb 11 2012, 09:46 PM...   Feb 12 2012, 01:45 AM
- - GreyBrother   Yerameyahu: Fair enough I can respect your opinio...   Feb 12 2012, 01:10 AM
|- - JanessaVR   QUOTE (GreyBrother @ Feb 11 2012, 05:10 P...   Feb 12 2012, 02:28 AM
- - CanRay   I fully admit that I take bribes as a GM.   Feb 12 2012, 04:11 AM
- - Yerameyahu   Nothing is true for *all* groups, 3278, but there...   Feb 12 2012, 07:18 AM
|- - Irion   QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Feb 12 2012, 08:18 AM...   Feb 12 2012, 09:40 AM
- - snowRaven   If you remove Essence you have to either remove al...   Feb 12 2012, 02:16 PM
|- - 3278   QUOTE (snowRaven @ Feb 12 2012, 02:16 PM)...   Feb 12 2012, 03:34 PM
- - Irion   Did not think of that. Getting rid of essence make...   Feb 12 2012, 02:30 PM
|- - Jekolmy   QUOTE (Irion @ Feb 12 2012, 08:30 AM) Did...   Feb 12 2012, 03:14 PM
- - Yerameyahu   And there are limb-only implants. It's true th...   Feb 12 2012, 03:20 PM
- - Yerameyahu   'What do you *mean* I can't have 48 implan...   Feb 12 2012, 03:36 PM
- - Irion   @Tymeaus Jalynsfein Which still is just a small pr...   Feb 12 2012, 06:22 PM
- - Yerameyahu   All I know is that the truly extreme Essence build...   Feb 12 2012, 06:26 PM
|- - Tymeaus Jalynsfein   QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Feb 12 2012, 11:26 AM...   Feb 12 2012, 06:43 PM
- - Irion   @Yerameyahu The question is always: What is worth ...   Feb 12 2012, 06:35 PM
- - Irion   @Tymeaus Jalynsfein Well it depends on what you co...   Feb 12 2012, 06:59 PM
|- - Tymeaus Jalynsfein   QUOTE (Irion @ Feb 12 2012, 11:59 AM) @Ty...   Feb 12 2012, 07:02 PM
- - Irion   @Tymeaus Jalynsfein Well, if I am (chargen) not al...   Feb 12 2012, 07:33 PM
- - Yerameyahu   It's true that you might buy different things,...   Feb 12 2012, 08:12 PM
- - Irion   Just saying that essence is a limitation. Of cours...   Feb 12 2012, 08:29 PM
- - Brainpiercing7.62mm   QUOTE (snowRaven @ Feb 12 2012, 03:16 PM)...   Feb 12 2012, 08:39 PM
- - Yerameyahu   Well, my cybergun example was about the 'body ...   Feb 12 2012, 08:40 PM
|- - Brainpiercing7.62mm   QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Feb 12 2012, 09:40 PM...   Feb 13 2012, 10:08 AM
- - nezumi   I like the Humanity growth mechanic (with some twe...   Feb 13 2012, 02:52 PM
- - Irion   @nezumi Which would beg the question why ever gett...   Feb 13 2012, 03:27 PM
|- - Brainpiercing7.62mm   QUOTE (Irion @ Feb 13 2012, 04:27 PM) @ne...   Feb 13 2012, 04:31 PM
- - Yerameyahu   I think people are specialized enough as it is. T...   Feb 13 2012, 04:57 PM
- - Irion   @Brainpiercing7.62mm QUOTE Yes, that means doing t...   Feb 13 2012, 05:31 PM
|- - Brainpiercing7.62mm   Well, way to go, this is actually a really product...   Feb 14 2012, 01:57 PM
|- - snowRaven   QUOTE (Brainpiercing7.62mm @ Feb 14 2012, 02...   Feb 14 2012, 10:31 PM
- - Yerameyahu   Hehe, now it's *really* like D&D levels, r...   Feb 13 2012, 05:52 PM
- - Irion   Actually it works exactly like Initiations...   Feb 13 2012, 05:57 PM
- - Yerameyahu   So? Like I just said, initiations are the problem.   Feb 13 2012, 06:13 PM
- - Irion   True, this would be the other way around. Get rid ...   Feb 13 2012, 06:27 PM
- - Yerameyahu   Anyway, that's just me. I wasn't saying r...   Feb 13 2012, 06:38 PM
- - Irion   @Yerameyahu You mean you buy up Essence and the ma...   Feb 13 2012, 06:46 PM
- - Yerameyahu   I haven't thought it through at all, but that ...   Feb 13 2012, 06:58 PM
- - Irion   @Brainpiercing7.62mm QUOTE This I don't quite ...   Feb 14 2012, 02:43 PM
- - Brainpiercing7.62mm   QUOTE (Irion @ Feb 14 2012, 03:43 PM) @Br...   Feb 15 2012, 09:43 AM


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