Apr 7 2005, 03:27 PM
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Manus Celer Dei ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,013 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
In any discussion of proper Shadowrunner behaviour, inevitably two points come up; the idea that if you fire a gun, the mission is a failure, and the idea that if you render an enemy unconscious rather than dead that your life will be easier in the long run. Let's take a closer look at these ideas. I shall first address this tendency towards pacifism.
Several explanations are given for why it's a good idea to incapacitate rather than kill: it garners less enemies, it's the right thing to do, it achieves the same effect. "It's the right thing to do". Perhaps. Consider also that the right thing to do is to not actually be Shadowrunning in the first place. Let's make this very clear, Shadowrunners ruin lives. Joe SecGuard allowed the Face access to the building, failed to pick up on the falsified security passcode the Decker was using, and was completely blindsided by the Mage. It wasn't his fault? That's possible. It also makes no difference. If the run resulted in meaningful losses, odds are overwhelmingly that the guard will get heavily reprimanded, and it's not at all unlikely that he'll be fired. Even if he retains his job, his chances of promotion anytime in the next decade or so probably approach a Planck quantity. If other guards died, were fired, or otherwise were affected as a result of his actions (or even if not), you can bet his time at work isn't going to be too pleasant. You have ruined his life, and quite possibly that of his family, if any. The same applies to Billy Burnout the Corp Cyberdemon. Big Billy cost a lot, possibly millions, but he can't even protect against a couple of Shadowrunners. Unless he's an ultra high-end model, he's probably looking at early retirement. The kind where they take out all of the augmentations and don't put anything back in. "It garners less enemies". Consider: Jane SecGuard, husband to Bob Miscellaneous, with two kids (one twenty and at college, one sixteen), is killed in the line of duty. Who is going to be the enemy? Bob? The kids? In all likelihood, none of them have fired a weapon more dangerous than a taser, at least not outside of a shooting range. What are they going to do? They're probably law-abiding corporate citizens, without the remotest idea how to start looking for street contacts. The only way they'd have a description of the runners is if the corp has it and gives it to them, the latter part being extremely unlikely. Consider on the other hand what happens if Jane is merely tasered or gel-rounded into unconsciousness. She wakes up to reprimands, the scorn of her fellow employees, possibly termination. She goes home to face the family that she's no longer supporting, or that at least she has no meaningful chance of increasing her support to. She is not only motivated, but she actually has weapons training of some variety. She also has a decent chance of having seen the Runners she's after. At best, the situation is the same (no ability to effectively pursue revenge). At worst, the runners now have a motivated enemy with the ability to actually harm them on their tail. This applies doubly for guards without family. "It achieves the same effect". Any guard who is merely unconscious is one stimpatch away from coming after you again. A dead guard, or even one who's been patched up at twelve boxes of Physical, isn't going to come after you again. All it takes to restore a guard with ten boxes stun to the fight is a stimpatch. Now, on to the idea that a gun fired ends the Shadowrun: this one is at least vaguely more arguable. A gunshot does not mean a failed Shadowrun. However, except for circumstances in which you can be very assured of the shot remaining unheard, you should not fire until you're ready to leave. Even guards take time to respond. If the alarm goes off while you're shooting your way back out of the secret lab with barely two minutes between you and the door, there isn't going to be any meaningful human opposition in that time. That being said, know your target: sentry guns, containment doors, and some drones don't have that same delay. Regardless, in almost every run, there is a point at which opening up with the weaponry not only fails to harm but actually enhances the likelihood of undamaged survival. Obviously this point cannot be exploited in every run (especially those with uncertain opposition or those in which secrecy is a requirement), but with the exception of places capable of destroying you in under a minute regardless of where you are at the time or places with equipment such that you cannot escape them once they've gotten a lock on you, it will exist. I suppose I should also talk about the question of bystanders. I've got no problem with killing them, but remember not to let it distract you from your objective. Some Johnsons will look down on it as unprofessional, others will look at it as the height of professionalism (that is, as long as you're eliminating witnesses rather than actively hunting down ordinary people to kill). Those are the risks you take. This should mostly be a by-character decision. Remember, though, if an innocent bystander attacks you or can identify you, they're not an innocent bystander anymore. I'm most certainly not arguing that Runners should be utterly devoid of morals. No, the idea that I find absurd is that Runners both have morals and follow them. It's a pretty twisted morality (or one that revels in ignorance) that will be fine with 'Running. Your mileage may vary, but I've always found that it's a lot more fun to have a character who wouldn't think of killing innocent bystanders (say, a fourteen-year-old boy and his mother), but who, when faced with the situation, guns them down anyway because he was scared, didn't realize they weren't a threat, was afraid they'd identify him, whatever, rather than someone who just runs on past saying to himself "see how moral I am?" If we can move on from the idea that leaving witnesses and potential enemies around is "professional", I think we'll all be doing a lot better. ~J |
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Kagetenshi Shadowrunners, Bystanders, Security, and You Apr 7 2005, 03:27 PM
Demosthenes I see where you're going...and I agree, to a c... Apr 7 2005, 03:36 PM
Belle Anderson QUOTE (Demosthenes) I see where you're going..... Apr 7 2005, 03:51 PM
Talia Invierno QUOTE Consider also that the right thing to do is ... Apr 7 2005, 03:55 PM
Kagetenshi If you wish, just drop the capitalization. You can... Apr 7 2005, 04:00 PM
Penta Kage, you forget something.
Killing someone opens... Apr 7 2005, 04:06 PM
Mr Cjelli Runners aren't paragons of virtue. Realistica... Apr 7 2005, 04:07 PM
Backgammon QUOTE (Penta) Kage, you forget something.
Killing... Apr 7 2005, 05:23 PM
DrJest Depending on what you did whilst you were inside, ... Apr 7 2005, 04:29 PM
BitBasher QUOTE (Penta) Kage, you forget something.
Killing... Apr 7 2005, 05:42 PM
Kagetenshi QUOTE (BitBasher) Less-lethal rounds fired at a pe... Apr 7 2005, 05:46 PM
Sharaloth Two stunballs can still kill, just like gel rounds... Apr 7 2005, 04:42 PM
Kagetenshi Come to that, you're right. I'd forgotten ... Apr 7 2005, 05:51 PM
BitBasher QUOTE (Kagetenshi @ Apr 7 2005, 10:46 AM) QUO... Apr 7 2005, 04:43 PM
Nikoli Although it gives me a funny concept for a short s... Apr 7 2005, 04:47 PM
BookWyrm On some of my old runs, I tried to emphasize the a... Apr 7 2005, 04:53 PM
Kanada Ten QUOTE Consider also that the right thing to do is ... Apr 7 2005, 06:50 PM
Penta QUOTE (BitBasher) QUOTE (Penta @ Apr 7 2005, ... Apr 7 2005, 08:31 PM
DocMortand QUOTE (Kanada Ten) Killing and not killing make no... Apr 7 2005, 08:37 PM
Nikoli Well, except when doing an infiltration...
wear a ... Apr 7 2005, 08:48 PM
Tanka QUOTE (Penta)QUOTE (BitBasher @ Apr 7 2005, 1... Apr 7 2005, 09:26 PM
wagnern eye witness acounts are unreliable, and that littl... Apr 7 2005, 10:23 PM
wagnern eye witness acounts are unreliable, and that littl... Apr 7 2005, 10:24 PM
Tanka Which is why you strip down anybody you killed if ... Apr 7 2005, 10:27 PM
DrJest QUOTE So the question is... Would you rather make ... Apr 7 2005, 10:33 PM
Tanka QUOTE (DrJest) QUOTE So the question is... Would y... Apr 7 2005, 10:35 PM
DrJest Mmm, actually I was thinking of the spell Makeover... Apr 7 2005, 10:42 PM
Nikoli They have that, it's Physical Mask Apr 7 2005, 10:44 PM
Cain Physical Mask is visible on the astral, identifies... Apr 7 2005, 11:15 PM
Cain Attack of the double-post! Apr 7 2005, 11:17 PM
kackling kactuar Kage:
There's a difference between screwing o... Apr 8 2005, 12:36 AM
Shadow Lets not forget ammo cost money! That 20 round... Apr 8 2005, 01:50 AM
BrazilRascal Everything dpeends on the situation and each parti... Apr 8 2005, 02:16 AM
frostPDP It all depends on the type of run and who its agai... Apr 8 2005, 02:49 AM
kevyn668 1) There are no rules for long (or short) term inv... Apr 8 2005, 02:55 AM
Kagetenshi My post was entirely serious. I think parts of it ... Apr 8 2005, 03:12 AM
Pthgar Blame Twist. Apr 8 2005, 03:27 AM
fistandantilus3.0 Darn Twist.
I see where your coming from. I see ... Apr 8 2005, 04:00 AM
lorthazar Actually from the standpoint of a Player/GM who wo... Apr 8 2005, 05:02 AM
Sharaloth Yes, back to the way I played Shadowrun when me an... Apr 8 2005, 05:11 AM
Kagetenshi Not all killing is unprofessional. Not even most k... Apr 8 2005, 05:13 AM
ef31415 Yup. Its the big fun problem of Shadowrun. Unles... Apr 8 2005, 06:06 AM
Critias Or, alternately, the disassociated killer, whose l... Apr 8 2005, 06:09 AM
Glyph The fun is Shadowrun is playing characters whose m... Apr 8 2005, 06:54 AM
Demosthenes QUOTE (tanka)Group 1 meets some resistance. ... Apr 8 2005, 08:01 AM
Critias All of which is why you don't get caught, as o... Apr 8 2005, 08:05 AM
Capt. Dave QUOTE (kevyn668)
2) There are no rules, that I kn... Apr 8 2005, 08:12 AM
Demosthenes QUOTE (Critias) All of which is why you don't ... Apr 8 2005, 10:03 AM
hermit Well, whoever runs in a way that his face can be e... Apr 8 2005, 12:05 PM
Critias In a way it can be a somewhat "heroic" g... Apr 8 2005, 12:09 PM
Demosthenes QUOTE (Critias) In a way it can be a somewhat ... Apr 8 2005, 12:31 PM
hermit QUOTE remember much of the early stuff (even in cy... Apr 8 2005, 12:57 PM
Critias QUOTE Funny, I must have missed that part in Neuro... Apr 8 2005, 01:47 PM
Talia Invierno A very quiet assumption going absolutely unchallen... Apr 8 2005, 03:44 PM
Tanka There are, but who breaks those? Apr 8 2005, 03:46 PM
hermit QUOTE A very quiet assumption going absolutely unc... Apr 8 2005, 04:36 PM
Shadow QUOTE (Talia Invierno) A very quiet assumption goi... Apr 8 2005, 04:55 PM
hermit QUOTE That’s because you were busy reading a book ... Apr 8 2005, 05:16 PM
Ed Simons QUOTE (Kagetenshi)Several explanations are given f... Apr 9 2005, 05:11 AM
fistandantilus3.0 Just on a side note, what's with all the physi... Apr 9 2005, 07:11 AM
Fortune Physical Mask is fine, but the mage is normally pr... Apr 9 2005, 07:39 AM
The Grifter Blah blah blah....I'd just like to add...
QUO... Apr 9 2005, 01:00 PM
Talia Invierno QUOTE Physical Mask is fine, but the mage is norma... Apr 9 2005, 02:39 PM
Critias QUOTE (The Grifter) Blah blah blah....I'd just... Apr 9 2005, 02:42 PM
Fortune QUOTE (Talia Invierno) Or have an elemental or fou... Apr 9 2005, 02:48 PM
Talia Invierno True.
Although (sheer perversity here) what are t... Apr 9 2005, 02:52 PM
Fortune Are you talking about a single spell affecting the... Apr 9 2005, 03:03 PM
Talia Invierno I think in many cases the novels fluffed over that... Apr 9 2005, 03:21 PM
Fortune QUOTE (Talia Invierno) But with individual effect,... Apr 9 2005, 03:42 PM
Talia Invierno QUOTE You could develop an area effect Invisibilit... Apr 9 2005, 04:09 PM
Fortune I wouldn't allow it. If you want to go that ro... Apr 9 2005, 04:23 PM
hyzmarca Kill one enemy and you remove one enemy from the f... Apr 10 2005, 05:14 PM
Kagetenshi That's true for pursuit situations (though it... Apr 10 2005, 05:25 PM
Sharaloth QUOTE (hyzmarca) A security team can simply leave ... Apr 10 2005, 05:26 PM
Kagetenshi Furthermore, if the guards are packing lethal roun... Apr 10 2005, 05:33 PM
Talia Invierno Btw is anyone else getting seriously dizzy from al... Apr 10 2005, 05:56 PM
Ed Simons QUOTE (Sharaloth)Generally I would consider that n... Apr 10 2005, 07:46 PM
Kagetenshi QUOTE (Ed Simons) Well, if I was chief of security... Apr 10 2005, 08:09 PM
Fortune QUOTE (Talia Invierno) Btw Fortune: the one you su... Apr 10 2005, 09:22 PM
Eyeless Blond One think I heard early on here that bears repeati... Apr 10 2005, 09:27 PM
Talia Invierno I was. You're right. Sorry about that. Apr 10 2005, 09:27 PM
Kagetenshi Runners aren't serial killers. They aren't... Apr 10 2005, 09:36 PM
hyzmarca QUOTE (Kagetenshi @ Apr 10 2005, 03:09 PM) QU... Apr 10 2005, 09:42 PM
Kagetenshi Capturing the runners does nothing if whoever empl... Apr 10 2005, 09:56 PM
The Grifter QUOTE I'm just gonna hop out on a limb here, ... Apr 11 2005, 12:01 PM
hahnsoo QUOTE (Eyeless Blond) As for the "fallacy... Apr 11 2005, 12:05 PM
hyzmarca QUOTE (Kagetenshi) Capturing the runners does noth... Apr 11 2005, 05:36 PM
Kagetenshi The entire purpose of Johnsons and Runners is that... Apr 11 2005, 05:40 PM
hyzmarca QUOTE (Kagetenshi) The entire purpose of Johnsons ... Apr 11 2005, 05:50 PM
Little Bill Neuromancer did ultimately end on a good note. A ... Apr 11 2005, 07:56 PM
Ed Simons QUOTE (Kagetenshi) With regard to why they're ... Apr 12 2005, 03:03 AM
Ed Simons QUOTE (Eyeless Blond)I seriously doubt that a larg... Apr 12 2005, 03:24 AM
sapphire_wyvern QUOTE (Kagetenshi)"It garners less enemies... Apr 12 2005, 05:01 AM
Kagetenshi We're looking at a world in which the Insuranc... Apr 12 2005, 05:07 AM
Fortune Assuming the story even makes it to the press at a... Apr 12 2005, 06:03 AM
lorthazar Instruction for a proper run.
1: Fake work order ... Apr 12 2005, 06:30 AM
lorthazar What no flames? Apr 12 2005, 04:53 PM
DocMortand Nah, sounds good to me. Apr 12 2005, 09:12 PM
lorthazar Oh no the world is gonna end! it's the sev... Apr 13 2005, 04:29 AM
weblife With the way dosage works in SR, I don't think... Apr 13 2005, 09:08 AM![]() ![]() |
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