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> Strategic vs Dramatic and my take on SR 4, this is a rather long diatribe
Nerbert
post May 20 2005, 04:16 AM
Post #1


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There are, very generally, two kinds of role playing games and, very generally, two kinds of dice mechanics. There are Dramatic RPGs and Strategic RPGs and there are Hard dice mechanics and Soft dice mechanics.

To define very briefly:
Strategic RPGs - A strategic RPG is one in which the players navigate a series of puzzles and challenges which one must overcome or perish in the attempt. The emphasis is on problem solving, efficiency, resource management and leadership. The best example of this type of game is Advanced Dungeons and Dragons, also known as D&D 1st edition, or simply, 1st Edition. For anyone who has not played D&D 1st ed. its a very different game from 3.x Shadowrun 3e can be played very successfully this way.

Dramatic RPGs - A dramtic RPG is one in which the players navigate a series of stories and challenges which one may or may not be able to overcome. The emphasis of these games is on character development, plot advancement, and dramtic/cinematic scene setting. The best example of this type of game is White Wolf's new World of Darkness games. For anyone who hasn't yet played the new WoD, its a very different set of games from the old. Shadowrun 3e ought to be able to be played this way, but in reality, it is very difficult. More on this later.

A sidebar on dice mechanics. Dice mechanics are virtually the most important part of the act of playing an RPG. If a game's dice mechanics are shady, unpredictable, exploitable or unbalanced, it can drastically change the way a game is played. Nothing is more frusterating then having a character who ought to be good at something, but isn't, because the dice ruin everything he does.

Hard Dice Mechanics - A hard dice mechanic is one in which there is a rule for virtually anything. The focus of a hard dice system is to model, in a realistic and statistically accurate way, more or less everything that can happen to your characters. Pros - Verisimilitude, actions reconcile plausibly. Predictablility, its easy to plan ahead and know your relative strength. Cons - Inflexibility, you can't argue with the rules. Complicated - to play, you have to know what to roll in every situation and you can't fake it, because there's almost certainly a rule.

Soft Dice Mechanics - A soft dice mechanic is one in which the rules are flexible and open to interpretation, guidelines for rolls are given but the Game Master is responsible for both calling for a roll and for interpreting its results. The focus of a soft dice system is to model, in a simple and straightforward manner, the likelyhood of your character being able to perform a certain task. Pros - Flexibility, gamemasters are free to call for rolls and interpret the results in a way that best serves in the interests of the game. Simplicity, Soft dice rules are easy to learn and remember, exceptions are exactly that. Cons - Unrealistic, soft dice mechanics do not in any way model the way in which reality works. Unpredictablity, guaging your relative strength and planning ahead is more difficult.

First of all, I know I'm going to get many people saying that any of these statements aren't true. Particularly my statements concerning dice mechanics. This is not an academic paper, I have done no fact checking. I am speaking only from experience and opinion, and much discussion with fellow gamers. Personally, as far as hard dice mechanics go, I tend to ignore rules as frequently as possible, I call for rolls to get the game moving so I can actually tell a story. So I am biased.

Now, to Shadowrun. Shadowrun 3e is a game with a dramatic presentation and hard dice mechanics. Shadowrun's story is all about character, style, drama, cinematic experiences. It gets all its inspiration from novels and movies. Playing the game is more like CSI.

Characters have to constantly moniter everything they do and say, they have to think about all the possible things that could be going on or could happen to them. Everytime a character takes an action it usually involves at least three rolls. One to activate the action, one to resist, and one to see if someone else notices. In combat it could be more, especially when all the special abilities of all the different character options are operating simultaneously.

What do you roll when your remotely operated helicopter is trying to navigate through a canyon while being simultaneously hacked into by an enemy decker and blown out of the sky by someone else. Not only that by the helicopter is carrying your own decker who's hacking into the network of the enemy decker while being protected by his Mage chummer who's magically defending the helicopter from enemy mages but also suffering cyberware damage. Furthermore, your Rigger who's flying the chopper in the first place is under heavy fire from a group of runners with their own abilities, hackers and mages, and is being defended by two more combat characters.

And you know, this isn't even an implausible scenario. Whats even more plausible is having a team of runners actually cripple their own strategy to avoid having to play this out. I don't want to deal with all of the rules. This is a dramatic scene, why should it take four hours of rolling to reconcile. So break it down in to a couple of general rolls? Isn't that softening the game?

I love Shadowrun, but I don't play it any more. There's too many rules, the rules that exist are self contradicting and confusing. Everything is an exception. Everyone I play with loves the Shadowrun story, they love the universe, they love the presentation. They don't want to play. Playing that game is work. If you're already an expert, you have my applause. I'm sure one day I could be an expert too. But in the mean time, I can have a lot more fun playing another game completely.

The way I see it, Shadowrun 4 is going the way of a Dramatic Game with Soft Rules. Instead of having your Troll Street Samurai kick down the door and mow through a Grocery Store with his assault rifle, he'll be doing exactly the same thing in two rolls. The mortality rate of a starting Shadowrun character won't be 66% anymore.

I've run out of steam. I don't really expect anyone to agree with me.
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Posts in this topic
- Nerbert   Strategic vs Dramatic and my take on SR 4   May 20 2005, 04:16 AM
- - Ellery   Good summary. It's not clear to me that the S...   May 20 2005, 05:34 AM
- - Cain   Actually, the core Shadowrun mechanic is pretty st...   May 20 2005, 05:50 AM
- - The White Dwarf   Two comments. One: EVERY rpg eventually becomes s...   May 20 2005, 10:54 AM
- - Nerbert   QUOTE Id rather have a hard system than a soft at ...   May 20 2005, 03:06 PM
- - Nerbert   QUOTE (Cain) Actually, the core Shadowrun mechanic...   May 20 2005, 03:08 PM
- - The White Dwarf   The first quote is (or would be) true if people di...   May 20 2005, 08:03 PM
- - Ellery   I personally find it very annoying to play a chara...   May 20 2005, 09:38 PM
- - hermit   I personally prefer harder rules, both from a play...   May 20 2005, 11:08 PM
- - Wounded Ronin   I find myself liking hard-nose rules the best. No...   May 20 2005, 11:51 PM
- - hobgoblin   and boiling down a grocery massacre to two rolls i...   May 21 2005, 12:02 AM
- - The White Dwarf   Exactly. Streamlining the mechanic isnt the same ...   May 21 2005, 12:21 AM
- - mfb   like boiling oil down to water...?   May 21 2005, 12:50 AM
- - Cain   QUOTE (Nerbert) QUOTE (Cain @ May 20 2005, 12...   May 21 2005, 03:04 AM
- - The White Dwarf   mfb I didnt get the grocery massacre part either, ...   May 21 2005, 04:20 AM
- - Ellery   I've always had an even greater problem with t...   May 21 2005, 04:34 AM
- - Gambitt   Nice post Nerbert. SR is all about the feel of the...   May 21 2005, 07:25 AM
- - hobgoblin   QUOTE (The White Dwarf @ May 21 2005, 06:20 A...   May 21 2005, 02:38 PM
- - blakkie   QUOTE (hobgoblin) take a look at the end of the fi...   May 21 2005, 03:20 PM
- - Nerbert   What I should have said, instead of "two roll...   May 21 2005, 05:28 PM
- - Critias   If you kicked in the door fast enough, beat the pe...   May 21 2005, 05:30 PM
- - hobgoblin   that still dont count the cover factor of the aisl...   May 21 2005, 06:24 PM
- - mfb   yes. it's covered by the fact that no modifier...   May 21 2005, 10:14 PM
- - hobgoblin   ah true, normal cover mods dont count for suppress...   May 21 2005, 10:18 PM
- - Wounded Ronin   Well, if Shadowrun firearms were more realistic, w...   May 22 2005, 12:22 AM
- - Ellery   Is there a system that you think handles firearms ...   May 22 2005, 12:35 AM
- - Nerbert   This is the perfect example of why I prefer a soft...   May 22 2005, 07:12 AM
- - mfb   a soft system is nice if you value the roleplaying...   May 22 2005, 07:55 AM
- - The White Dwarf   /agree mfb Hard systems tend to be more even over...   May 22 2005, 09:40 AM
- - Wounded Ronin   OK, I'm going to say what my opinion about har...   May 22 2005, 04:32 PM
- - Gambitt   Aye Ronin, i like what you are saying. As a small ...   May 22 2005, 05:04 PM
- - Quix   Ronin I think I'm gonna have to disagree on te...   May 22 2005, 05:45 PM
- - Gambitt   I still agree with ronin, if im reading him right....   May 22 2005, 06:36 PM
- - Nerbert   Wounded Ronin A Hard System does not reward any d...   May 22 2005, 06:39 PM
- - Gambitt   But a hard system gives you a better idea of what ...   May 22 2005, 07:00 PM
- - Raskolnikov   Additionally, although a soft system will work fin...   May 22 2005, 08:27 PM
- - Nerbert   Clearly it doesn't make any sense to have all ...   May 22 2005, 08:35 PM
- - Raskolnikov   When you have 20+ people who are all GMs to some e...   May 22 2005, 08:42 PM
- - Nitr0   QUOTE (Nerbert) Gamemasters can, and should cheat ...   May 22 2005, 08:50 PM
- - mfb   that's the great thing about SR3, actually--it...   May 22 2005, 08:54 PM
- - hobgoblin   heh, maybe thats the strong point of the existing ...   May 23 2005, 01:16 AM
- - Critias   It's one of it's strongest points, yes. G...   May 23 2005, 01:21 AM
- - Nerbert   There's a difference between a slow game and a...   May 23 2005, 01:39 AM
- - Crimsondude 2.0   Glacial? Tell me about glacial when your GM loses ...   May 23 2005, 01:50 AM
- - Critias   QUOTE (Nerbert) There's a difference between a...   May 23 2005, 01:55 AM
- - Nerbert   My friends are not stupid. Nor am I. It is not t...   May 23 2005, 02:06 AM
- - hobgoblin   thats 40k. and if im correct, it uses a similar ru...   May 23 2005, 02:12 AM
- - Critias   QUOTE My friends are not stupid.  Nor am I....   May 23 2005, 02:25 AM
- - Charon   Back up a minute. What systems are soft and what ...   May 23 2005, 02:37 AM
- - Crimsondude 2.0   QUOTE (Critias @ May 22 2005, 08:25 PM) Use h...   May 23 2005, 03:22 AM
- - Nerbert   We're arguing the same point, Critias. I...   May 23 2005, 04:06 AM
- - Charon   QUOTE (Nerbert @ May 19 2005, 11:16 PM) Hard ...   May 23 2005, 05:45 AM
- - Ellery   QUOTE (Nerbert)What do you do when your gang of ru...   May 23 2005, 10:18 AM
- - Gambitt   Sorry couldnt resist an off topic side note: i Bl...   May 23 2005, 02:56 PM
- - Aku   First to chime on the map issue. I'm not ...   May 23 2005, 04:46 PM
- - Nerbert   Ellery Normally I would agree with you. But what...   May 23 2005, 05:21 PM
- - mfb   don't have the 'main' NPC deal with PC...   May 23 2005, 05:42 PM
- - Raskolnikov   We avoid that by having a simple rule that a chara...   May 23 2005, 06:07 PM
- - Nerbert   And all of this stuff falls under the heading of ...   May 23 2005, 08:01 PM
- - Raskolnikov   Maybe we're just really lucky, which I doubt c...   May 23 2005, 08:17 PM
- - Ellery   Between the one place at a time rule, and not walk...   May 23 2005, 09:02 PM
- - Hell Hound   I've got to say, the idea of breaking the rule...   May 24 2005, 02:25 AM
- - Cheops   I've also had the misfortune of being in a gam...   May 24 2005, 04:17 AM
- - Critias   I can understand why a GM might occasionally want ...   May 24 2005, 05:49 AM
- - Nerbert   QUOTE I have had players kill off important NPCs, ...   May 24 2005, 05:57 AM
- - Wireknight   Basically, my view on "flexible rules interpr...   May 24 2005, 06:48 AM
- - Hell Hound   I have no problem with bending or breaking the rul...   May 24 2005, 01:05 PM
- - Geko   QUOTE (Charon @ May 23 2005, 12:45 AM) D...   May 24 2005, 03:28 PM
- - Cain   QUOTE This is obviously the worst case scenario. B...   May 25 2005, 08:23 PM
- - Raskolnikov   Additionally, "behind the screen" takes ...   May 25 2005, 08:31 PM
- - Nerbert   Well, I must say, you all seem very confident of y...   May 25 2005, 09:19 PM
- - Nythrun   The last few posts, Wireknight's eloquent summ...   May 25 2005, 09:50 PM
- - Crimsondude 2.0   QUOTE (Raskolnikov) Additionally, "behind the...   May 25 2005, 09:50 PM
- - Nerbert   QUOTE (Nythrun) The last few posts, Wireknight...   May 25 2005, 10:09 PM
- - mfb   i disagree. the FAQ was fairly clear: Edge is a re...   May 25 2005, 11:58 PM
- - Kagetenshi   QUOTE (Nerbert) As for not cheating. What do you ...   May 26 2005, 01:06 AM
- - Nythrun   QUOTE (Nerbert) I "missed the point" as ...   May 26 2005, 01:55 AM
- - Ellery   You know, it would be interesting to see how much ...   May 26 2005, 04:44 AM
- - Critias   Yeah. I mean, I guess it's easy to think comb...   May 26 2005, 05:49 AM
- - Cain   QUOTE Choosing to duck behind available cover does...   May 26 2005, 06:20 AM
- - Crimsondude 2.0   QUOTE (Cain) QUOTE Playing by the rules is great, ...   May 26 2005, 07:02 AM
- - Jrayjoker   I've played a few games that degenerated into ...   May 26 2005, 03:48 PM
- - Nerbert   It was never my intention to "prove" any...   May 27 2005, 12:29 AM
- - Kagetenshi   QUOTE Oh, and before some conversational genius te...   May 27 2005, 12:39 AM
- - mfb   you're talking about two completely different ...   May 27 2005, 12:56 AM
- - Nerbert   QUOTE (mfb) you're talking about two completel...   May 27 2005, 01:12 AM
- - mfb   hm. i'm the exact opposite. in SR, it's ea...   May 27 2005, 02:30 AM
- - Nerbert   Its true that because there are so many variable, ...   May 27 2005, 03:46 AM
- - Critias   So, right. One more vote in the "I'm not...   May 27 2005, 04:14 AM
- - mfb   it might be better for your paticular group. i...   May 27 2005, 04:16 AM
- - Cain   QUOTE My point, all matters of cheating or prepera...   May 27 2005, 04:59 AM
- - Critias   I never said I was trying to "help." ...   May 27 2005, 06:00 AM
- - Crimsondude 2.0   Yeah... What he said.   May 27 2005, 07:04 AM
- - nick012000   QUOTE (Critias) ...In d20, you just have to ride ...   May 27 2005, 08:43 AM
- - DrJest   Interesting discussion... Personal viewpoint: I...   May 27 2005, 09:21 AM
- - Wireknight   QUOTE (nick012000 @ May 27 2005, 08:43 AM) Th...   May 27 2005, 10:03 AM
- - Taki   QUOTE (Wireknight) I believe that the Shadowrun 3r...   May 27 2005, 10:49 AM
- - Gambitt   QUOTE (Critias)That's what they're turning...   May 27 2005, 11:35 AM
- - Critias   QUOTE (Taki @ May 27 2005, 05:49 AM) QUOTE (W...   May 27 2005, 11:43 AM
- - Critias   QUOTE (Gambitt) Hi there im Mr. Toast in good need...   May 27 2005, 11:50 AM
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