May 25 2005, 09:30 AM
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Target ![]() Group: Members Posts: 70 Joined: 5-September 02 From: Everywhere and Nowhere Baby Member No.: 3,225 |
Well in a few posts about the new system and the hate it is causing requests have been made as to why do we need a new system. Basically asking what is wrong with the current system, as the question has been asked I will try to put an answer here.
The most basic flaw with Shadowrun 3 and in fact this is common to all of the first three editions of Shadowrun is the variable target number system. Well not variable target numbers as such more the fact a target number modifier isn’t a constant modifier. That might sound like nonsense so I will try to explain using a magical example. If Billy Mage was wanting to cast a invisibility and a personal bullet barrier on himself and sustain them. He gets much better benefits for casting the invisibility first. Ok so working with my limited stats knowledge (sorry but if I make mistake) and using average success here is how it works out. Invisibility First Cast invisibility 12 dice against target 4 = 6 successes Cast barrier 12 dice against a target of 8 (base 6 + 2 for sustaining) = 1 successes Total successes 7 Barrier First Cast Barrier 12 dice against target 6 = 2 successes Cast Invisibility 12 dice against target of 6 (4 + 2 for sustaining) = 2 successes Total Successes 4 That’s a difference of 3 successes, and its all because making a 4 to a 6 is much worse then making a 6 to an 8. Now SR4 is trying to address this and make it all equal as the target number will always be 5 and you will just need more successes for casting a spell while sustaining, or perhaps have less dice. The point is that the spell you want the most successes on will be the spell you cast first. Now I am sure I aren’t saying anything here we all don’t already know. The variable target numbers has been an issue in Shadowrun from day one. So has the fact that 7 is basically the same target number as 6. So there is my one reason to change. I may be able to think of more as more FAQ is released. |
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Earthwalker Why SR4 ? May 25 2005, 09:30 AM
Crimsondude 2.0 It's not hate.
Fuck.
And if there is any, I... May 25 2005, 10:10 AM
Critias The flaw with our argument -- from start to finish... May 25 2005, 10:13 AM
Crimsondude 2.0 Well, you can still think and use some probability... May 25 2005, 10:30 AM
Critias Yeah, but to what end? From what they've told... May 25 2005, 10:35 AM
Ellery What you've shown is that the variable TN syst... May 25 2005, 11:46 AM
Earthwalker First an apology, I am sorry if it seemed I implie... May 25 2005, 11:55 AM
Critias The TN 6/7 thing has long been a bane of the game ... May 25 2005, 12:02 PM
Jrayjoker Why SR4?
Why not?
I am sure the developers d... May 25 2005, 01:07 PM
Earthwalker QUOTE (Critias)The flaw with our argument -- from ... May 25 2005, 02:50 PM
Eldritch QUOTE (Crimsondude 2.0) It's not hate.
Fuck.
... May 25 2005, 05:24 PM
Kagetenshi QUOTE (Earthwalker) I believe that a modifier to a... May 25 2005, 05:31 PM
Eyeless Blond Hey Kag, how's the SR3R project coming along? ... May 25 2005, 05:58 PM
Gort I agree that the 6-7 target number thing is bad, a... May 25 2005, 06:18 PM
Catsnightmare QUOTE (Eyeless Blond) Hey Kag, how's the SR3R ... May 25 2005, 06:21 PM
Earthwalker QUOTE (Eldritch) And while SR3 has it's flaws,... May 25 2005, 06:23 PM
Eldritch QUOTE (Earthwalker) QUOTE (Eldritch @ May 25 ... May 25 2005, 06:40 PM
Kagetenshi QUOTE (Eyeless Blond) Hey Kag, how's the SR3R ... May 25 2005, 06:47 PM
nezumi I'm with Eldritch. I actually LIKE the variab... May 25 2005, 06:49 PM
Gort QUOTE (nezumi) But I suppose that begs the questio... May 25 2005, 07:02 PM
Earthwalker QUOTE (Kagetenshi) QUOTE (Earthwalker @ May 2... May 25 2005, 07:23 PM
Kagetenshi Let's take your counterexample and change one ... May 25 2005, 07:52 PM
Nerbert Here's the problem with the variable target nu... May 25 2005, 07:55 PM
Shadow QUOTE (Gort) I personally do not like the variable... May 25 2005, 08:13 PM
Gort Well, I'm just hoping for the retention of the... May 25 2005, 08:17 PM
Kagetenshi QUOTE (Nerbert @ May 25 2005, 02:55 PM) Varia... May 25 2005, 08:19 PM
Nerbert Kagetenshi, I have no idea what you're trying ... May 25 2005, 08:30 PM
Earthwalker QUOTE (Kagetenshi) I submit that it is. Comparativ... May 25 2005, 08:35 PM
Shadow QUOTE (Gort) Well, I'm just hoping for the ret... May 25 2005, 08:41 PM
nezumi QUOTE (Nerbert) Here's the problem with the va... May 25 2005, 08:44 PM
Kagetenshi QUOTE (Nerbert) Kagetenshi, I have no idea what yo... May 25 2005, 08:56 PM
Nerbert But why is such a degree of precision necessary? ... May 25 2005, 09:02 PM
Nerbert QUOTE (Kagetenshi) QUOTE (Nerbert @ May 25 20... May 25 2005, 09:12 PM
Eldritch QUOTE Variable TN systems are twice as complex as ... May 25 2005, 09:16 PM
Kagetenshi If you're going with a static-TN system in whi... May 25 2005, 09:18 PM
Nerbert Kagetenshi, obviously someone rolling 4 dice isn... May 25 2005, 09:26 PM
Kagetenshi Of course they aren't going to be the best pe... May 25 2005, 09:35 PM
Nerbert And the answer is... Yes! Statistically it is... May 25 2005, 09:38 PM
Shadow I haven't noticed anything about if you are go... May 25 2005, 09:44 PM
Nerbert This is how that kind of thing works in nWoD, usin... May 25 2005, 09:49 PM
Kagetenshi QUOTE (Nerbert) And the answer is... Yes! Sta... May 25 2005, 09:52 PM
Eldritch QUOTE Q. What is the basic mechanic?
A. Basic succ... May 25 2005, 10:00 PM
Gort Is there a big problem with some things being impo... May 25 2005, 10:03 PM
Gort QUOTE (Shadow) No thats pretty much gone. It's... May 25 2005, 10:06 PM
Nerbert QUOTE (Kagetenshi @ May 25 2005, 04:52 PM) QU... May 25 2005, 10:11 PM
Kagetenshi No, they have announced it, and it does use multip... May 25 2005, 10:22 PM
Nerbert Multiple variables? What does that have to do wit... May 25 2005, 10:22 PM
Kagetenshi Because you challenged (not without reason) my ass... May 25 2005, 10:33 PM
Nerbert Well, if they're not using exploding dice, I... May 25 2005, 10:34 PM
Shadow I am farely certain they are not using exploding d... May 25 2005, 10:48 PM
Ellery Good grief. This thread has more than the usual sh... May 25 2005, 10:52 PM
Nerbert The problem is, so much of all these conversations... May 25 2005, 11:05 PM
Eldritch QUOTE There are some things you can only convenien... May 25 2005, 11:10 PM
mfb a long jump doesn't have a lot of variation IR... May 26 2005, 12:41 AM
Eldritch Er, I thought the SR COmpanion had some basic rule... May 26 2005, 03:28 AM
Crimsondude 2.0 How nice that they couldn't be bothered to put... May 26 2005, 03:30 AM
mfb SRComp has the jumping rules for SR3 (and they... May 26 2005, 03:37 AM
Eldritch QUOTE (Crimsondude 2.0) How nice that they couldn... May 26 2005, 04:02 AM
Critias "Not great" is a ridiculous understateme... May 26 2005, 04:25 AM
Taki Easier rules - even a bit dumber, but more logical... May 26 2005, 11:45 AM
Earthwalker QUOTE (Ellery)QUOTE (Earthwalker)I believe that a ... May 26 2005, 05:12 PM
Snow_Fox QUOTE (Eldritch) QUOTE (Crimsondude 2.0 @ May... May 27 2005, 03:39 AM
mfb i wouldn't call it a money grab. neither line ... May 27 2005, 04:20 AM
Kagetenshi Of course it's a money grab. It's a money ... May 27 2005, 04:42 AM
Taki QUOTE (Earthwalker) [QUOTE=Ellery]
In fact, there ... May 27 2005, 10:03 AM
Wireknight You just outlined the problem; the limited range o... May 27 2005, 10:15 AM
Taki QUOTE (Wireknight) There'll be almost as littl... May 27 2005, 10:39 AM
Critias For an instance of where being "excellent... May 27 2005, 11:05 AM
Taki QUOTE (Critias) 1
In theory, there's a world ... May 27 2005, 11:22 AM
Mr.Cato The Vampire RPG has sort of the same machanics (at... May 27 2005, 11:28 AM
Critias QUOTE (Mr.Cato) The Vampire RPG has sort of the sa... May 27 2005, 11:40 AM
Taki It was quite easy to begin with most of the attrib... May 27 2005, 12:30 PM
Mr.Cato QUOTE (Critias) And, I just disagree on your asses... May 27 2005, 12:54 PM
Eldritch QUOTE In Sr3 there was no difference between a guy... May 27 2005, 03:36 PM
mfb honestly, the attribute+skill mechanic is one of t... May 27 2005, 04:36 PM
BitBasher QUOTE (mfb) honestly, the attribute+skill mechanic... May 27 2005, 07:27 PM
mfb only in the long run, which--according to the poll... May 27 2005, 07:29 PM
Kagetenshi In my experience attributes have a much stronger e... May 27 2005, 07:40 PM
Ellery QUOTE (Taki) There IS a function that does what yo... May 28 2005, 02:55 AM
Crimsondude 2.0 Some of us prefer sticking with only the unusual, ... May 28 2005, 02:59 AM
Gilthanis Sorry if someone already mentioned this...skipped ... May 28 2005, 05:16 AM
Catsnightmare QUOTE (Gilthanis) Drain codes equation (F/2) and (... May 28 2005, 05:34 AM
Ellery QUOTE I personally feel mages should take a heftie... May 28 2005, 07:23 AM
Gilthanis QUOTE (Ellery @ May 28 2005, 02:23 AM) QUOTE ... May 28 2005, 02:23 PM
Fortune QUOTE (Catsnightmare @ May 28 2005, 03:34 PM)... May 28 2005, 05:48 PM
Ellery You can't disarm a martial arts expert either.... May 28 2005, 09:56 PM
Critias QUOTE (Gilthanis) I personally feel mages should t... May 28 2005, 11:57 PM
Gilthanis Boy for every time I here someone say.... "We... May 30 2005, 04:43 PM
Doctor Funkenstein I hope Drain continues to have about the same impa... May 30 2005, 05:40 PM
Kagetenshi Perhaps you've stumbled upon the explanation f... May 30 2005, 05:57 PM
Doctor Funkenstein Hehe, perhaps. May 30 2005, 05:59 PM
Shadow QUOTE (Doctor Funkenstein) Now making it so that y... May 31 2005, 11:14 AM
Taki ... I don't think dev have change that deep th... May 31 2005, 01:10 PM
Doctor Funkenstein There's no way to even theorize how Drain will... May 31 2005, 01:34 PM
Jrayjoker QUOTE (Shadow) Well since dice pools are gone then... May 31 2005, 04:07 PM
Shadow QUOTE (Jrayjoker @ May 31 2005, 08:07 AM) QUO... May 31 2005, 08:17 PM
Eldritch Hey now - not too fast there - nobody said nuttin ... May 31 2005, 08:32 PM
BitBasher QUOTE (Doctor Funkenstein) But idealistically I... May 31 2005, 10:57 PM
Doctor Funkenstein I'm aware of that. That's why I specifica... May 31 2005, 11:16 PM
Synner Ooops wrong thread. May 31 2005, 11:24 PM![]() ![]() |
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