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Earthwalker
post May 25 2005, 09:30 AM
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From: Everywhere and Nowhere Baby
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Well in a few posts about the new system and the hate it is causing requests have been made as to why do we need a new system. Basically asking what is wrong with the current system, as the question has been asked I will try to put an answer here.

The most basic flaw with Shadowrun 3 and in fact this is common to all of the first three editions of Shadowrun is the variable target number system. Well not variable target numbers as such more the fact a target number modifier isn’t a constant modifier. That might sound like nonsense so I will try to explain using a magical example.

If Billy Mage was wanting to cast a invisibility and a personal bullet barrier on himself and sustain them. He gets much better benefits for casting the invisibility first.

Ok so working with my limited stats knowledge (sorry but if I make mistake) and using average success here is how it works out.

Invisibility First

Cast invisibility 12 dice against target 4 = 6 successes
Cast barrier 12 dice against a target of 8 (base 6 + 2 for sustaining) = 1 successes
Total successes 7

Barrier First

Cast Barrier 12 dice against target 6 = 2 successes
Cast Invisibility 12 dice against target of 6 (4 + 2 for sustaining) = 2 successes
Total Successes 4

That’s a difference of 3 successes, and its all because making a 4 to a 6 is much worse then making a 6 to an 8.

Now SR4 is trying to address this and make it all equal as the target number will always be 5 and you will just need more successes for casting a spell while sustaining, or perhaps have less dice. The point is that the spell you want the most successes on will be the spell you cast first.

Now I am sure I aren’t saying anything here we all don’t already know. The variable target numbers has been an issue in Shadowrun from day one. So has the fact that 7 is basically the same target number as 6.

So there is my one reason to change. I may be able to think of more as more FAQ is released.
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Posts in this topic
- Earthwalker   Why SR4 ?   May 25 2005, 09:30 AM
- - Crimsondude 2.0   It's not hate. Fuck. And if there is any, I...   May 25 2005, 10:10 AM
- - Critias   The flaw with our argument -- from start to finish...   May 25 2005, 10:13 AM
- - Crimsondude 2.0   Well, you can still think and use some probability...   May 25 2005, 10:30 AM
- - Critias   Yeah, but to what end? From what they've told...   May 25 2005, 10:35 AM
- - Ellery   What you've shown is that the variable TN syst...   May 25 2005, 11:46 AM
- - Earthwalker   First an apology, I am sorry if it seemed I implie...   May 25 2005, 11:55 AM
- - Critias   The TN 6/7 thing has long been a bane of the game ...   May 25 2005, 12:02 PM
- - Jrayjoker   Why SR4? Why not? I am sure the developers d...   May 25 2005, 01:07 PM
- - Earthwalker   QUOTE (Critias)The flaw with our argument -- from ...   May 25 2005, 02:50 PM
- - Eldritch   QUOTE (Crimsondude 2.0) It's not hate. Fuck. ...   May 25 2005, 05:24 PM
- - Kagetenshi   QUOTE (Earthwalker) I believe that a modifier to a...   May 25 2005, 05:31 PM
- - Eyeless Blond   Hey Kag, how's the SR3R project coming along? ...   May 25 2005, 05:58 PM
- - Gort   I agree that the 6-7 target number thing is bad, a...   May 25 2005, 06:18 PM
- - Catsnightmare   QUOTE (Eyeless Blond) Hey Kag, how's the SR3R ...   May 25 2005, 06:21 PM
- - Earthwalker   QUOTE (Eldritch) And while SR3 has it's flaws,...   May 25 2005, 06:23 PM
- - Eldritch   QUOTE (Earthwalker) QUOTE (Eldritch @ May 25 ...   May 25 2005, 06:40 PM
- - Kagetenshi   QUOTE (Eyeless Blond) Hey Kag, how's the SR3R ...   May 25 2005, 06:47 PM
- - nezumi   I'm with Eldritch. I actually LIKE the variab...   May 25 2005, 06:49 PM
- - Gort   QUOTE (nezumi) But I suppose that begs the questio...   May 25 2005, 07:02 PM
- - Earthwalker   QUOTE (Kagetenshi) QUOTE (Earthwalker @ May 2...   May 25 2005, 07:23 PM
- - Kagetenshi   Let's take your counterexample and change one ...   May 25 2005, 07:52 PM
- - Nerbert   Here's the problem with the variable target nu...   May 25 2005, 07:55 PM
- - Shadow   QUOTE (Gort) I personally do not like the variable...   May 25 2005, 08:13 PM
- - Gort   Well, I'm just hoping for the retention of the...   May 25 2005, 08:17 PM
- - Kagetenshi   QUOTE (Nerbert @ May 25 2005, 02:55 PM) Varia...   May 25 2005, 08:19 PM
- - Nerbert   Kagetenshi, I have no idea what you're trying ...   May 25 2005, 08:30 PM
- - Earthwalker   QUOTE (Kagetenshi) I submit that it is. Comparativ...   May 25 2005, 08:35 PM
- - Shadow   QUOTE (Gort) Well, I'm just hoping for the ret...   May 25 2005, 08:41 PM
- - nezumi   QUOTE (Nerbert) Here's the problem with the va...   May 25 2005, 08:44 PM
- - Kagetenshi   QUOTE (Nerbert) Kagetenshi, I have no idea what yo...   May 25 2005, 08:56 PM
- - Nerbert   But why is such a degree of precision necessary? ...   May 25 2005, 09:02 PM
- - Nerbert   QUOTE (Kagetenshi) QUOTE (Nerbert @ May 25 20...   May 25 2005, 09:12 PM
- - Eldritch   QUOTE Variable TN systems are twice as complex as ...   May 25 2005, 09:16 PM
- - Kagetenshi   If you're going with a static-TN system in whi...   May 25 2005, 09:18 PM
- - Nerbert   Kagetenshi, obviously someone rolling 4 dice isn...   May 25 2005, 09:26 PM
- - Kagetenshi   Of course they aren't going to be the best pe...   May 25 2005, 09:35 PM
- - Nerbert   And the answer is... Yes! Statistically it is...   May 25 2005, 09:38 PM
- - Shadow   I haven't noticed anything about if you are go...   May 25 2005, 09:44 PM
- - Nerbert   This is how that kind of thing works in nWoD, usin...   May 25 2005, 09:49 PM
- - Kagetenshi   QUOTE (Nerbert) And the answer is... Yes! Sta...   May 25 2005, 09:52 PM
- - Eldritch   QUOTE Q. What is the basic mechanic? A. Basic succ...   May 25 2005, 10:00 PM
- - Gort   Is there a big problem with some things being impo...   May 25 2005, 10:03 PM
- - Gort   QUOTE (Shadow) No thats pretty much gone. It's...   May 25 2005, 10:06 PM
- - Nerbert   QUOTE (Kagetenshi @ May 25 2005, 04:52 PM) QU...   May 25 2005, 10:11 PM
- - Kagetenshi   No, they have announced it, and it does use multip...   May 25 2005, 10:22 PM
- - Nerbert   Multiple variables? What does that have to do wit...   May 25 2005, 10:22 PM
- - Kagetenshi   Because you challenged (not without reason) my ass...   May 25 2005, 10:33 PM
- - Nerbert   Well, if they're not using exploding dice, I...   May 25 2005, 10:34 PM
- - Shadow   I am farely certain they are not using exploding d...   May 25 2005, 10:48 PM
- - Ellery   Good grief. This thread has more than the usual sh...   May 25 2005, 10:52 PM
- - Nerbert   The problem is, so much of all these conversations...   May 25 2005, 11:05 PM
- - Eldritch   QUOTE There are some things you can only convenien...   May 25 2005, 11:10 PM
- - mfb   a long jump doesn't have a lot of variation IR...   May 26 2005, 12:41 AM
- - Eldritch   Er, I thought the SR COmpanion had some basic rule...   May 26 2005, 03:28 AM
- - Crimsondude 2.0   How nice that they couldn't be bothered to put...   May 26 2005, 03:30 AM
- - mfb   SRComp has the jumping rules for SR3 (and they...   May 26 2005, 03:37 AM
- - Eldritch   QUOTE (Crimsondude 2.0) How nice that they couldn...   May 26 2005, 04:02 AM
- - Critias   "Not great" is a ridiculous understateme...   May 26 2005, 04:25 AM
- - Taki   Easier rules - even a bit dumber, but more logical...   May 26 2005, 11:45 AM
- - Earthwalker   QUOTE (Ellery)QUOTE (Earthwalker)I believe that a ...   May 26 2005, 05:12 PM
- - Snow_Fox   QUOTE (Eldritch) QUOTE (Crimsondude 2.0 @ May...   May 27 2005, 03:39 AM
- - mfb   i wouldn't call it a money grab. neither line ...   May 27 2005, 04:20 AM
- - Kagetenshi   Of course it's a money grab. It's a money ...   May 27 2005, 04:42 AM
- - Taki   QUOTE (Earthwalker) [QUOTE=Ellery] In fact, there ...   May 27 2005, 10:03 AM
- - Wireknight   You just outlined the problem; the limited range o...   May 27 2005, 10:15 AM
- - Taki   QUOTE (Wireknight) There'll be almost as littl...   May 27 2005, 10:39 AM
- - Critias   For an instance of where being "excellent...   May 27 2005, 11:05 AM
- - Taki   QUOTE (Critias) 1 In theory, there's a world ...   May 27 2005, 11:22 AM
- - Mr.Cato   The Vampire RPG has sort of the same machanics (at...   May 27 2005, 11:28 AM
- - Critias   QUOTE (Mr.Cato) The Vampire RPG has sort of the sa...   May 27 2005, 11:40 AM
- - Taki   It was quite easy to begin with most of the attrib...   May 27 2005, 12:30 PM
- - Mr.Cato   QUOTE (Critias) And, I just disagree on your asses...   May 27 2005, 12:54 PM
- - Eldritch   QUOTE In Sr3 there was no difference between a guy...   May 27 2005, 03:36 PM
- - mfb   honestly, the attribute+skill mechanic is one of t...   May 27 2005, 04:36 PM
- - BitBasher   QUOTE (mfb) honestly, the attribute+skill mechanic...   May 27 2005, 07:27 PM
- - mfb   only in the long run, which--according to the poll...   May 27 2005, 07:29 PM
- - Kagetenshi   In my experience attributes have a much stronger e...   May 27 2005, 07:40 PM
- - Ellery   QUOTE (Taki) There IS a function that does what yo...   May 28 2005, 02:55 AM
- - Crimsondude 2.0   Some of us prefer sticking with only the unusual, ...   May 28 2005, 02:59 AM
- - Gilthanis   Sorry if someone already mentioned this...skipped ...   May 28 2005, 05:16 AM
- - Catsnightmare   QUOTE (Gilthanis) Drain codes equation (F/2) and (...   May 28 2005, 05:34 AM
- - Ellery   QUOTE I personally feel mages should take a heftie...   May 28 2005, 07:23 AM
- - Gilthanis   QUOTE (Ellery @ May 28 2005, 02:23 AM) QUOTE ...   May 28 2005, 02:23 PM
- - Fortune   QUOTE (Catsnightmare @ May 28 2005, 03:34 PM)...   May 28 2005, 05:48 PM
- - Ellery   You can't disarm a martial arts expert either....   May 28 2005, 09:56 PM
- - Critias   QUOTE (Gilthanis) I personally feel mages should t...   May 28 2005, 11:57 PM
- - Gilthanis   Boy for every time I here someone say.... "We...   May 30 2005, 04:43 PM
- - Doctor Funkenstein   I hope Drain continues to have about the same impa...   May 30 2005, 05:40 PM
- - Kagetenshi   Perhaps you've stumbled upon the explanation f...   May 30 2005, 05:57 PM
- - Doctor Funkenstein   Hehe, perhaps.   May 30 2005, 05:59 PM
- - Shadow   QUOTE (Doctor Funkenstein) Now making it so that y...   May 31 2005, 11:14 AM
- - Taki   ... I don't think dev have change that deep th...   May 31 2005, 01:10 PM
- - Doctor Funkenstein   There's no way to even theorize how Drain will...   May 31 2005, 01:34 PM
- - Jrayjoker   QUOTE (Shadow) Well since dice pools are gone then...   May 31 2005, 04:07 PM
- - Shadow   QUOTE (Jrayjoker @ May 31 2005, 08:07 AM) QUO...   May 31 2005, 08:17 PM
- - Eldritch   Hey now - not too fast there - nobody said nuttin ...   May 31 2005, 08:32 PM
- - BitBasher   QUOTE (Doctor Funkenstein) But idealistically I...   May 31 2005, 10:57 PM
- - Doctor Funkenstein   I'm aware of that. That's why I specifica...   May 31 2005, 11:16 PM
- - Synner   Ooops wrong thread.   May 31 2005, 11:24 PM


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