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Gutz
post Sep 7 2005, 10:54 PM
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Hi there everyone, I am a bit new so please take everything I say with a grain of salt here until I acclimate to the "culture".

After having read the rules I have some opinions good and bad about the new system.

The Bad

1) The shift to Attribute + Skill kind of rubs me the wrong way. It really moves away from what FASA was doing with its games at the time of 3rd ed. Something I really agree with. At no time should an attribute really overshadow skill. I think that a game mechanic that gives equal representation to an attrubute for a skill roll gives an unfair advantage to people who create characters with heavy emphasis on attributes at the cost of skills which are generally easier to increase with Karma. It just doesn't seem to mesh with the way things work for me. Shadowrun and Mechwarrior 3rd simply made it easier for you to increase skills if you had high likend attributes. This makes more sense to me since natural aptitude really just makes things easier to pick up instead of making you a savant. I can see two reasons for making this move. Firstly, when you are designing a system that requires the modification of dice pools, you have to have a fairly significant die pool to manipulate while still being able to provide realistic modifiers. You are left with either going with adding a lot of positive modifiers, having relatively high skill levels or going with a linked attribute score. I didn't like it in White Wolf and I don't like it here. In general I feel that Shadowrun has really taken a lot from the White Wolf book here and I am not sure I like it.

2) I really really really hate the loss of the "pool" system. Whether it be combat, casting, haking or control. I think that it was one of the things that really set Shadowrun apart from other systems. I felt that the combat pool had a significant factor in putting you in the drivers seat of the combat. Thinking ahead about dividing your pool amoungst mutliple actions, modifying your level of aggressiveness and generally making on the spot calls that made or broke a combat. I think that the combat system is a lot less dynamic without it.

3) Close combat does not allow for defenders to score hits. Once again, making the game a little less dynamic. Counterstriking and exploiting overextensions in attack are a good part of close combat. With the loss of this more "swirling melee" type simulation we are left with a very bland and ordinary combat system that is generally the same as any other in any system. Making things sort of videogamey.

The Good

1) They really got creative with the setting upgrade. Some real nice work here in keeping up with the pace of technology. Although I think the AR system adds a bit of a challenge to the GM its pretty darn facinating. Although its a bit of a rip off from Cybergeneration's "trode" system. Being a Decker/Hacker isnt as much of a party encuberance as it used to be, which is basically the bane of a Cyberpunk game. I like the smooth integration of Rigging and computer use. Real nice.

2) The Technomancer is super sweet. Shadowrun is not totally a dual world where every aspect of life is touched and manipulated by magic. Mage deckers. They even alluded to it in 3rd ed. This really brings things full circle.

3) 4th edition gives us a more generalized and comprehensive look at magic. It gives the GM a broader set of generic rules for creating traditions. Spells seem more varied and spirit use is nicely unified between traditions, leaving things mostly separated by flavor and feel.

Any Thoughts?
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Posts in this topic
- Gutz   Fourth Edition   Sep 7 2005, 10:54 PM
- - Ellery   I basically agree. I may post in much more detail...   Sep 7 2005, 11:55 PM
- - hahnsoo   QUOTE (Ellery) An easily overlooked flaw, given th...   Sep 8 2005, 12:06 AM
- - Rotbart van Dainig   Hell, even SotA64 had those LinkClubs...   Sep 8 2005, 12:07 AM
- - SL James   You did see the word "more", right?   Sep 8 2005, 12:31 AM
- - Bull   Considering that 90%+ of the entire world is owned...   Sep 8 2005, 06:49 AM
- - Kagetenshi   QUOTE (Bull) And most electronics and components t...   Sep 8 2005, 06:51 AM
- - Synner   Having translated internal technical manuals and f...   Sep 8 2005, 07:03 AM
- - Bull   Well, I am coming at you from a retail and consume...   Sep 8 2005, 09:13 AM
- - morlock76   If you take into account, how quickly technology c...   Sep 8 2005, 10:38 AM
- - Ellery   Either there was a lot of unannounced wireless cap...   Sep 8 2005, 11:19 AM
- - blakkie   Do we need to get David Spade in here? Buh-bye.   Sep 8 2005, 11:27 AM
- - apple   QUOTE (Ellery) Either there was a lot of unannounc...   Sep 8 2005, 11:42 AM
- - Ellery   Sorry, I mean in all the things that people are ha...   Sep 8 2005, 11:47 AM
- - Synner   QUOTE (Ellery) Sorry, I mean in all the things tha...   Sep 8 2005, 12:32 PM
- - Superbum   IIRC, in 2009 a Congress mandate will go into effe...   Sep 8 2005, 01:00 PM
- - Ellery   They've extended that deadline so many times.....   Sep 8 2005, 01:01 PM
- - Superbum   Ah, first Ive heard about it. Doesn't suprise ...   Sep 8 2005, 01:03 PM
- - Ellery   It's hard to force the voting public to give u...   Sep 8 2005, 01:06 PM
- - Superbum   Yeah, only reason I heard about it is because I ha...   Sep 8 2005, 01:32 PM
- - Bull   QUOTE (Ellery) The megas certainly could force it ...   Sep 8 2005, 01:46 PM
- - kigmatzomat   A lot of the wired infrastructure that wasn't ...   Sep 8 2005, 05:44 PM
- - NeoJudas   Okay, I am going to get involved in this conversat...   Sep 8 2005, 06:03 PM
- - Kagetenshi   I've said it before, I'll say it again: fi...   Sep 8 2005, 06:04 PM
- - Mightyflapjack   Kagetenshi wrote: I've said it before, I...   Sep 8 2005, 08:21 PM
- - Cynic project   QUOTE (NeoJudas) Now let's get back to SR4 fo...   Sep 8 2005, 08:30 PM
- - Fortune   QUOTE (Cynic project) Why do people always forget ...   Sep 8 2005, 09:11 PM
- - kigmatzomat   QUOTE (Mightyflapjack)How is a firewall - 5 ...   Sep 9 2005, 02:36 PM
- - Eldritch   QUOTE (Bull @ Sep 8 2005, 01:46 PM) QUOTE (El...   Sep 9 2005, 03:20 PM
- - NeoJudas   QUOTE (Kagetenshi)I've said it before, I'l...   Sep 9 2005, 03:37 PM
- - NeoJudas   QUOTE (Mightyflapjack)NeoJudas wrote: It has a bu...   Sep 9 2005, 03:50 PM
- - Jrayjoker   Replying to Eldritch: Meh, your POV is fine, but ...   Sep 9 2005, 04:10 PM
- - Kagetenshi   QUOTE (NeoJudas) Signal to Noise for EM Field purp...   Sep 9 2005, 05:05 PM
- - Smed   QUOTE (Kagetenshi) I'm really getting tired o...   Sep 9 2005, 05:36 PM
- - Autarkis   You guys bring up a good point. The one thing I c...   Sep 9 2005, 05:40 PM
- - Kagetenshi   I will stab you in the face. ~J   Sep 9 2005, 06:03 PM
- - Rotbart van Dainig   So you want to be rich & famous ?   Sep 9 2005, 06:11 PM
- - Shadow   QUOTE (Autarkis) You guys bring up a good point. ...   Sep 9 2005, 07:05 PM
- - Dashifen   True, but I'm willing to suspend disblief long...   Sep 9 2005, 07:21 PM
- - Kagetenshi   QUOTE (Dashifen) we might come up with a way to so...   Sep 9 2005, 08:03 PM
- - FrankTrollman   Shanon's Law allows for potentially infnite da...   Sep 9 2005, 10:31 PM
- - FrankTrollman   Stupid Double Post. -Frank   Sep 9 2005, 10:31 PM
- - Kagetenshi   QUOTE (FrankTrollman @ Sep 9 2005, 05:31 PM) ...   Sep 10 2005, 05:54 AM
- - Sabosect   All of this is nice, but pointless. The real reaso...   Sep 10 2005, 12:04 PM
- - Sabosect   Accidental double post.   Sep 10 2005, 12:04 PM
- - blakkie   I thought there were SR4 rules for wireless dead z...   Sep 10 2005, 01:55 PM
- - Bull   There indeed are. I think the thing that's be...   Sep 10 2005, 02:27 PM
- - Rotbart van Dainig   In SR4, at last... in SR3, there was always CSS.   Sep 10 2005, 02:30 PM
- - kigmatzomat   As I've suggested earlier, you can always chea...   Sep 10 2005, 02:56 PM
- - Grinder   QUOTE (Bull) There indeed are. I think the thing ...   Sep 10 2005, 04:14 PM
- - Sabosect   QUOTE (blakkie) I thought there were SR4 rules for...   Sep 10 2005, 09:11 PM
- - Taki   most of the visible Matrix 2 is wireless - still m...   Sep 10 2005, 09:24 PM
- - blakkie   QUOTE The problem is the rules are ignoring a real...   Sep 10 2005, 10:59 PM
- - Sabosect   QUOTE (blakkie) I'm curious what you base this...   Sep 10 2005, 11:03 PM
- - NeoJudas   QUOTE (Bull)There indeed are.  I think the th...   Sep 11 2005, 02:34 AM
- - Bull   I dunno. You're right, I'm spouting the p...   Sep 11 2005, 03:49 AM
- - Bull   Oh, right, I should also add this... Lack of wire...   Sep 11 2005, 04:02 AM
- - Kagetenshi   QUOTE (Bull @ Sep 10 2005, 10:49 PM) <shru...   Sep 11 2005, 04:48 AM
- - hyzmarca   QUOTE (NeoJudas) QUOTE (Bull)There indeed are....   Sep 11 2005, 05:00 AM
- - Crusher Bob   Erm, shouldn't that just be: "the commlin...   Sep 11 2005, 05:37 AM
- - Shadow   Ok you guys do realize that 'wireless' is ...   Sep 11 2005, 06:01 AM
- - blakkie   QUOTE (Sabosect @ Sep 10 2005, 05:03 PM) QUOT...   Sep 11 2005, 06:12 AM
- - blakkie   QUOTE (Kagetenshi @ Sep 10 2005, 10:48 PM) QU...   Sep 11 2005, 06:15 AM
- - Bull   QUOTE (Kagetenshi) With all due respect, I find it...   Sep 11 2005, 06:31 AM
- - fistandantilus3.0   as far as power, remember that a lot of items now-...   Sep 11 2005, 06:34 AM
- - Sabosect   QUOTE (blakkie) But if this increased equipment ha...   Sep 11 2005, 07:21 AM
- - blakkie   QUOTE (Sabosect) QUOTE (blakkie @ Sep 11 2005...   Sep 11 2005, 07:42 AM
- - Sabosect   QUOTE (blakkie) Thus my comment about shielding. ...   Sep 12 2005, 06:42 AM
- - sapphire_wyvern   QUOTE (hyzmarca) QUOTE (NeoJudas @ Sep 10 200...   Sep 12 2005, 01:26 PM


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