Karma and the problmes it causes Options

[Cynic project]

I will be posting a set pMs between me and Blakie both high lighting the pros and cons of the normal Karma system.

Cynic project
Sent: Seeing as you seemd to miss it, Sep 12 2005, 10:29 AM
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QUOTE (blakkie @ Sep 11 2005, 03:27 AM)
I just thought of a great marketing slogan for your house rules!

"Frankie Trollman: Cutting out important, relavent facts to make the math easier and clearer since 2005."

Here's to hoping you sell a million copies. cool.gif

I'll bite here.

One how are skill groups equal to or better than Attributes? If they are not why should players spend equal or greater points for them?

Two if the karma system is so fair and good, why is better to start with attributes at 5 and four at 1 than say some reasonable middle ground?


blakkie
Re:Seeing as you seemd to miss it, Sep 12 2005, 10:59 AM
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Oh that. Ya, i saw that yesterday but had no time to respond, and hadn't gotten around to it yet:

The short answer is that it doesn't matter for them to be equal. Since you have to come through Skill eventually if you want to take that skill to the top.

If you worried about all purchases being equal so much you'd get rid of Skill Groups before trying to adjust Attribute/Skill costs. They actually a replacement for the Skill costs.

Of course that demonstrates a second reason that this Skill/Attribute difference is much about very little. You aren't going to see Attributes maximized before any Skill progression because the extra value of an Attribute is only there if:
1) You have the karma in hand for the extra cost.
2) You have an near enough equal need for the dice in all the skill pools.

This simply isn't always the case. So you pay the higher karma/die across all pools because it is more important to you at that time to have a lower karma/die in a particular pool.

I guess that is the shortish answer. nyahnyah.gif There are aspect i could get into and more detail in the above, but that's the gist of it. The really short is "A lot of important details about value per karma were left out and replaced with erroneous assumptions in Frank's suppositly exhastive math".

The thing about the Skill Groups was pointed out to Frank, but not only did he ignore it he created new more complex rules to make it easier to use Skill Groups, thus further undermining the Skill values he purports to be worried about. wobble.gif

P.S. Sorry, i don't really have time to discuss this further. Work is imposing itself again on my schedule.
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Cynic project
Sent: Re:Seeing as you seemd to miss it, Sep 12 2005, 11:34 AM
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QUOTE


The short answer is that it doesn't matter for them to be equal. Since you have to come through Skill eventually if you want to take that skill to the top.


Okay So here is what you have. Let us assume you have 4 in a skill group and and attribute. Say that they are both linked. Then let's say there are three skill groups that that attribute can be used for.

Okay to raise one skill to 5 costs what? 10 karma? You get one die in a skill one skill.

To raise the group to five costs? 25 karma? To get one die in three or four skills.

Right here are seeing that you need to pay more to get more dice in more fields. That sounds fair.

Now attributes from 4 to 5 costs 15 karma? Right. In this case it is linked to three skill groups. That means you paid less for for more. So to get the same effect with one skill group you have to pay more. To get the same effects with all three skill groups you pay 400% of the karma.

Too get 3 dice in all the skill groups can either cost you 15, to raise said attribute to 5, 18 to raise to 6, 61 to raise it to 7. That costs a lot of karma a total of 94 karma.

To do that same with skill groups would cost you 20 to raise to 5, 25 to raise it to six 60 raise it to 7. A grand total of 95 for one skill group. 285 for all three skill groups.

So aside from a role playing point of view, why would I even think about raiding a skill group before I had my attribute at 6? What game mechanical reason why I do this? I look at the math there and I see just bad logic behind the karma costs, Sure if I wanted to play a combat monkey I would raise my skills(groups) to 6 somewhere down the line. But not until my character had a 6(maybe even a 7) in all physical attributes and maybe even some of the mental ones as well. Unless I am playing on pure role play and in witch case I get reward of making a thoughtful and stylized character in exchange for being not as good for no good reason.

Now from an objective point of view would you like some play any of the meta type without paying any cost? If not please tell me, cause you do not seem to worry about game balance.
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QUOTE

<snip>
So aside from a role playing point of view, why would I even think about raiding a skill group before I had my attribute at 6?


Skill Group? Perhaps raising to a 2, outside chance of a 3 (karma difference is slight) before Attribute 6. Skill though quite possibly raising it close to your Attribute speed. Maybe faster for critical Skills that you have little use for the Attribute outside of that Skill (example of Perception for some characters).

But you still COMPLETELY missing the point of the part that you quoted, you still have to go through the Skills. Your example has NOTHING to do with the point.

It is like going from from Skill 5 -> Skill 6 than Skill 4 -> Skill 5, only you paying for something to raise your dice pool from 8 to 9. The difference is that it is more open-ended how you buy that increase particular ('ware, magic, Attr, Skill, gear), but in the end you are going to have to buy the Skill by the time you are raising to the top of the dice pool size. You can put off the more expensive increase, or you can take it up front. But eventually you'll pay it.

QUOTE
Now from an objective point of view would you like some play any of the meta type without paying any cost? If not please tell me, cause you do not seem to worry about game balance.


That is NOT an appropriate comparison. See above.

P.S. If you still haven't groked after this message i give up on you. Don't bother respond, i haven't got the time for it.
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Cynic project
Sent: Re:Seeing as you seemd to miss it, Sep 12 2005, 12:27 PM
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So your point is this because you need to get the skill to the max to be the best at a task you do not need to make Attribute and skill group balanced? IF that is so why not make skill groups the X3 and Attributes the X5?

As if you are going to use the stanardard rule the gun bunny is going to start with 4 in the fire skill group and may or not start with a higher than for in the linked Attribute. So why should the Attribute cost less than the Skill gruop?


[QUOTE]So your point is this because you need to get the skill to the max to be the best at a task you do not need to make Attribute and skill group balanced? [QUOTE]

Bingo! smile.gif

[QUOTE]IF that is so why not make skill groups the X3 and Attributes the X5?[/QUOTE]

Why? Why not? I suggest to do so is a make-work project. Remember that if you do that what exactly are you going to charge for Skills? Still 2X? That skews towards Skill Groups pretty harshly, and they are a replacement purchase for Skills. Ironic if in an effort to try "balance" Skills and Attributes costs you've create a large cost difference in buying Skill points between in a group and outside a group.

[QUOTE]
As if you are going to use the stanardard rule the gun bunny is going to start with 4 in the fire skill group and may or not start with a higher than for in the linked Attribute. So why should the Attribute cost less than the Skill gruop?[/QUOTE]

If he starts with it there then he pays the cost for it. That is his choice.

Now if you are worried about the disconnect between chargen and playing, well that's more a BECKS/SECKSY/whatever-you-feel-the-need-build thing. I'm not crazy about the mostly linear costs during creation time. It is something i could mostly live with in SR3, outside of the Skill (6)/Attribute(max) syndrome. Fortunately which is what SR4 somewhat addressed with 25BP for the last Attribute point and tight control of Skills over (4).

P.S. The one thing i will say though is that if you start lifting the Attribute cap that if you don't make it karma costly to raise the Attribute the past the racial max then the relative costs of Skill could become a bit of an issue, but not as much as general die pool inflation.
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PS sorry for the gramara nd spelling. I still think that the points were made