Optimization Advice for a Combat Hacker, Help me build a Hacker and the Greatest Swordsman in the World Options

[Inncubi]

Personally I've never figured that a hacker would be particularly stressed while hacking, because it is what they do. That's like saying a waiter is stressed while waiting because they have to deal with a bunch of people. Fact is, they aren't, because they do it all the time. If GM really wants, can call for a composure test, which is willpower + charisma, so my build has 8 dice.

Have to remember that stress is relative.

I am a lawyer. I work on legal matters all the time. Write contracts and check cases: its how I earn my living... And it does stress me: if I mess it up my client looses tons of money, or if its a criminal case, his freedom. These are things you don't mess around with.
A bomb squad who is deciding whether he should do the red or blue wire is /very/ stressed.
A heart surgeon who is replacng the little pump that goes wild when you fall in love, is very stressed when he has your ribs cracked and your torso exposed, and he's using a very sharp knife in there to save you.
A hacker is facing a "glacier" (a node full of IC) darker than a black hole, those programs can get him dead, brain dead or maybe even wash his brain to love the company he's trying to steal data from, while his partners are under fire... he's under stress.

I agree if he's just looking for pr0n in da interwebs... he's probably not stressed.
Running is as stressing a job as you can get.

Just my two (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif)

[Karoline]

That's a rather extreme example. Yeah, sure, if your in a node that has a dozen IC in it, all using black hammer while you're using hot VR, then yeah, stressed. But if you're just hacking into a system... meh.

And in all of those cases, they still manage to concentrate just fine, because they keep composed. I really don't see why you wouldn't use this mechanic to do exactly what it is designed to do.

[Yerameyahu]

It's entirely possible composure doesn't matter. Keeping composed in a stressful situation doesn't alter the *stress*, and these a neural nanites. At the brain level, it *could* be that only the stress matters. In terms of game balance (which I know you care about (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) )…

[Inncubi]

That's a rather extreme example. Yeah, sure, if your in a node that has a dozen IC in it, all using black hammer while you're using hot VR, then yeah, stressed. But if you're just hacking into a system... meh.

And in all of those cases, they still manage to concentrate just fine, because they keep composed. I really don't see why you wouldn't use this mechanic to do exactly what it is designed to do.

I was using an extreme example, yes, just to illustrate my point, but I'd say even a single Black hammer is grounds for stress.
On the other hand I agree that should a player ask for a composure roll I'd -at least- consider it very seriously depending on how the character is portrayed.

Actually stress is your body's mechanism under those circumstances to think fine. The bonus comes from when he can actually concentrate and very /relaxed/. Being composed under fire, or with risky IC -stun damage is painful and stressing- is different than being relaxed under those circumstances. The first one is just fine, desirable... the second one is scary and might even be cool for a concept, but ultimately incredibly rare and anyone with a psi degree would agree its close to some mental deficiency.

[Karoline]

Well, the entry says that it doesn't work when you are stressed, which is open for interpretation. Is stressed the same as not relaxed, or is there an inbetween (stressed but composed) in which you can concentrate well enough to work properly? Personally I think that being composed in a stressful situation should be enough to make use of the nanites.

Edit: There are after all plenty of times in my life where I'm neither relaxed nor stressed, and there are plenty of times where I am stressed but still entirely composed. And then there are times when I just lose my mind under stress (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

@Yera - Yeah, but being composed effects your brain and body as much as being stressed in the first place does. So I don't see your argument there. And for game balance, I think hackers need ways to be above your standard agent, and I think neocortical is a good way to go about it.

[Inncubi]

Well, the entry says that it doesn't work when you are stressed, which is open for interpretation. Is stressed the same as not relaxed, or is there an inbetween (stressed but composed) in which you can concentrate well enough to work properly? Personally I think that being composed in a stressful situation should be enough to make use of the nanites.

Edit: There are after all plenty of times in my life where I'm neither relaxed nor stressed, and there are plenty of times where I am stressed but still entirely composed. And then there are times when I just lose my mind under stress (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

Yeah, we are both basing our arguments upon examples which don't prove our points, in the end we both agree that under any circumstacnes you can be: stressed and freaking out (no nanites), relaxed (use your nanites away) or teh grey areas in between, that I shall call stressed but in different ranges of composed (GM fiat on use of nanites). We both draw the line differently there, maybe we could agree on a certain amount of successes depending on the situation: I mean, if a characters rolls 10 successes on a composure roll when hacking Zurich Orbital and surrounded by the blackest IC and hackers full of deadly programs, I'd say: use your neocorticals... if he rolls only 1 hit, I'd say: no, can't use it. You are under control, but not enough to use the nanites.

Isn't that a point we both can agree on?

[Yerameyahu]

Karoline, I think you'll find that's not true. Inncubi is talking about the same thing. 'Stressed-and-composed' is different from 'relaxed'.

Anyway, the book makes it pretty clear already:

as long as the character is able to concentrate on the problem at hand without major distractions or encroaching stressful situations (such as a raging firefight, an ongoing chase, or hacking an ultra-secure system).

So. GM decides what's 'ultra-secure', 'major distractions', etc. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Karoline]

Yeah, we are both basing our arguments upon examples which don't prove our points, in the end we both agree that under any circumstacnes you can be: stressed and freaking out (no nanites), relaxed (use your nanites away) or teh grey areas in between, that I shall call stressed but in different ranges of composed (GM fiat on use of nanites). We both draw the line differently there, maybe we could agree on a certain amount of successes depending on the situation: I mean, if a characters rolls 10 successes on a composure roll when hacking Zurich Orbital and surrounded by the blackest IC and hackers full of deadly programs, I'd say: use your neocorticals... if he rolls only 1 hit, I'd say: no, can't use it. You are under control, but not enough to use the nanites.

Isn't that a point we both can agree on?

Yes, very much. I didn't mean that a single hit should always mean you are composed, and it isn't what the rules for composure say. Yeah, for more stressful situations, you're going to need more hits on a composure test.

[Glyph]

The biggest problem with a street samurai/hacker is that there is not very much synergy between the two roles. Street samurai need good physical Attributes, combat skills, and cyber/bioware. Hackers need good Logic, hacking/technical skills, and different cyber/bioware, as well as the outlay for their commlink and programs. So any attempt to do both means that you will have to compromise.

Here's a build from me. He's not the greatest samurai, or the greatest hacker, but he can at least do a reasonable job in both areas:

[ Spoiler ]

Combat Hacker
Race: Ork

BREAKDOWN (400 Points)
Core Attributes: 150
Special Attributes: 10
Race: 20
Active Skills: 150
Qualities: 0
Contacts: 10
Resources: 60

=Attributes=
Body: 5
Agility: 4 (6)
Reaction: 4 (6)
Strength: 3
Charisma: 2
Intuition: 3
Logic: 4 (6)
Willpower: 3
Edge: 2

Essence: 0.40

=Qualities=
Analytical Mind
Born Rich
Genetic Heritage: PuSHeD
Restricted Gear x 1
--------------------
Allergy: Silver, Moderate
Compulsive: Neat/clean freak (-5)
Records on File
Weak Immune System

=Active Skills=
Cracking Skill Group: 4
Electronics Skill Group: 2
First Aid: 1
Gymnastics: 3
Influence Skill Group: 1
Intimidation: 2
Monofilament Whip: 4
Perception/Visual: 3/+2
Pistols/Semi-Automatics: 6/+2

=Knowledge Skills=
English: N
Or'zet: 4
------------
Corporate Matrix Security Procedures: 4
Data Havens: 4
Matrix Chat Rooms: 3
Ork Underground: 3
Underworld Politics: 3

=Cyberware=
Commlink
Cybereyes II with:
> Flare Compensation
> Low-Light Vision
> Smartlink
> Vision Magnification
Datajack
Encephalon: 1
Fingertip Compartment with:
> Monofilament Whip
Radar Sensor: 4
Sim Module (modified for Hot Sim)
Wired Reflexes: 2

=Bioware=
Cerebral Booster: 2
Muscle Toner: 2

=Geneware=
PuSHeD

=Contacts=
Fixer (2 Connection/2 Loyalty)
Software Pirate (2 Connection/2 Loyalty)

=Lifestyle and Gear=

Lifestyle: Low (1 Month prepaid) Starting Cred: 3d6 x 50 Nuyen

Commlinks:
Meta Link commlink with Vector Xim OS (dummy commlink to run while "real" commlink is in hidden mode).

Transys Avalon (internal) with upgraded Response: 6 and Signal: 5; Custom OS - System: 6 and Firewall: 6; Response Enhancer: 3, Simsense Accelerator, Customized Interface, Hardening: 6, Optimization - Exploit; Cryptosense Module.

Programs:
All 7 Common Use, and all Hacking (except for Blackout), from the main book at Rating: 6, also Virtual Surround Music and a premium MSP (1 month prepaid).

Weapons:
Colt Government 2066 Heavy Pistol with internal smartlink, skinlink, concealable holster, 140 regular, 140 gel, and 70 EX explosive rounds of ammo; 5 spare clips.

Armor/Clothing:
Armor Jacket, FFBA 1/2 Suit with nonconductive: 4, PPP forearm guards and shin guards; 2,500 Nuyen of assorted clothing.

Other:
Duffel Bag (100 Nuyen), 4 certified credsticks, Medkit: 6 with 5 refills, tag eraser, electronic toolkit.

[PoliteMan]

There's an easy way for Neo-Cortical nanites to get around that "stressful situation" limitation: drugs. I'm away from my books but there's a drug, dopamine I think, that basically calms you down to the point of canceling beserk. Since you already have a cyber-limb for you nanohive, it's trivial to fit in an autoinjector and a biomonitor. Once stress becomes a problem the biomonitor senses it and injects dopamine, problem solved. To be fair, this gives your GM a chance to make drug addiction a serious problem (if you're drugging every run, well...) but most of the GMs I've run across simply aren't that interested/mean.

I was wrong about Reflex recorder, it's not for Matrix actions.

I'm not sure about Adepts being better than cyber for hacking. Cyber is money intensive, very money intensive, but with Encephelon, Neocortical, and PuSHeD you're at +7 to all matrix actions and that more essence than most adepts are willing to drop. Plus, if you have unwired and take Simsense Accelerator (again, AFB) from Augmentation and the Matrix IP booster from Unwired you can get up to 5 IP in the matrix.

@Glyph, I think you're right about the lack of synergy, with one caveat. Most of the Hack/Sams I've played have no problem matching a straight Sam for firepower, it's durability that's the problem. Muscle Toner and a cyber-limb with gyromount is usually plenty powerful

[Karoline]

Well, there is some truth that adepts always have more potential, because if they really wanted they could get everything that a mundane hacker could get, and then stack on 3 points of improved ability on top of it. So they'll always have a higher potential pool, but they cost will be way too high to make it very viable.

[Yerameyahu]

The book doesn't say it's about your reaction. It says "major distractions or encroaching stressful situations". If the situation is distracting or stressful, that's what matters.

Now, it might be a fun house rule that you can use drugs and things, though. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) However, if you really are using drugs on every hack… no, that's not even a little bit mean for the GM to look into the addiction rules. That's basically their exact intended use.

[Zyerne]

My original suggestion was for an adept with a partial limb, which would take most of the goodies. Add pushed on top of that and take improved ability instead of the encephalon.

Wouldn't be able to get them all at char gen but without the 75k for encephalon, overall cost goes way down.

[Karoline]

The book doesn't say it's about your reaction. It says "major distractions or encroaching stressful situations". If the situation is distracting or stressful, that's what matters.

Now, it might be a fun house rule that you can use drugs and things, though. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Yes, but 'major distractions or encroaching stressful situations' is highly subjective. It says 'ultra secure system'. Is that a strait rating 6 system? Is that something much higher?

I mean, if you just want it to be a 'stressful situation' well, I'm fairly sure that simply living is stressful when you're a professional criminal. That means neocortical should never work for runners, right? I mean, sure, you're composed about it and all, but it is still a stressful situation. Heck, having to go to work every day and make ends meet is fairly stressful. You really can't base neocortical's use on just 'stressful situations', you have to base it on a person's reaction to that situation. And a hacker isn't usually going to be all that stressed during a hack (especially one with a good composure check). And obviously someone on ultra anti-stress drugs similarly isn't going to count as being stressed for neocortical.

[Yerameyahu]

Personally, I'd start with 'solid-but-not-perfect hacker', toss in 'decent-but-not-great' gunbunny, and improve from there. Melee is really only for the true specialists. That's just me, though. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Either way, I'd focus on the hacker side more than the sam side, to start with. Eventually, you can 'max out' both. … in the really long run. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

It gives examples, Karoline. Firefight, chase, difficult hack. I said, yes, it's still GM decision, but those are pretty good guidelines. *Obviously* not 'simply living', because that's not like any of the examples. And it's not obvious that drugs affect it, no; we don't know the neuroscience, so it could go either way. The GM *could* rule that they do. It's also a total house rule to use Composure at all, but it could be a good one. (Although, once again, composed is *not* unstressed. Composed practically implies stressed, otherwise you're just 'normal'.)

[PoliteMan]

The book doesn't say it's about your reaction. It says "major distractions or encroaching stressful situations". If the situation is distracting or stressful, that's what matters.

Pure RAW, you're probably right.

For me, this is the fuzziest kind of RAW with no guidelines to the GM about what constitutes a stressful situation or what other effects there might be. Arguing that the stressfulness or distraction of a situation isn't subjective to the person experiencing though would be a stretch at most tables, in my opinion. If the drug can turn an uncontrolled raging madman calm and rational then even the most stressful situation shouldn't bother an ordinary person using it.

As for addiction, what I meant is that in a lot of hacking situations you shouldn't need the drugs and they're not terribly addictive so it'll take awhile before addiction becomes a problem. I think that's good, it stops you from hogging the limelight with your drug addiction while still having a cool roleplaying opportunity.

[Karoline]

And it isn't exactly the worse drug to get addicted to. It's like getting addicted to anti-depressants or something, it isn't all that harmful.

[Yerameyahu]

It's probably the same as hot-sim hacking, which is also addictive. They're *all* harmful, even if they're not K-10. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif) Except Betel, which is a free 5BP for a +1 Intuition.

Berserk (the state, not the trigger) isn't necessarily related to stress at all, though, or in totally different ways. Drugs and the brain are complicated enough to accommodate basically any GM ruling we want. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) That's my point: it's *still* a GM decision, and squeezing 3 more dice onto your optimized hacker by weaseling around the limits in the book generally doesn't ingratiate you. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[Karoline]

Well, when squeezing those 3 dice are nearly the only difference between a hacker and a high grade agent, yeah, I'm going to try and get them, and I'm going to do my best to not let (yet another) poorly defined almost offhand statement cause an item to be entirely worthless. Because lets face it, the only time you actually need those extra 3 dice are when you are under 'stress', and 'stress' is entirely undefined in the books (except slightly in the composure area).

Yeah, it is a GM decision on when it should or shouldn't apply, and it is a GM decision on using the composure test or not, but if the GM is hitting my hacker for being stressed while hacking, I'm going to ask that the streetsam take a penalty for being stressed while fighting for his life, and that the face take a penalty for negotiating anything remotely important for being stressed, and that the rigger working on his delicate drone's insides take a penalty for being stressed and so on.

And yeah, all addictions are potentially harmful, but only if you hit burnout level which reduces your essence. Before that it is only harmful if the drug you take is itself harmful.

[WhiskeyJohnny]

Wow, thanks for all the help, all of you!

I think I've been able to refine what I want, with your help. I'd like to be either a Human or an Ork (preferably, but not necessarily, with the Human-Looking quality), and I would like to be good at two things: Hacking and Combat. As far as combat goes, I think I want to be more of a gunbunny than street sam, at least initially (room to grow is nice). I'm ok with being a "solid-but-not-perfect-hacker" and a "decent-but-not-great" gunbunny, especially if that means I can diversify my skills a little. I understand I could get to this by either going the Adept route or the heavily cybered guy route - I'm not sure which I prefer. I know my GM would prefer not to have much magic, but I figure an Adept is ok since I'm not going to be a total spellslinger. That said, I like the idea of bioware and cyberware, though I'd rather not go with the full-limb replacement route (doing just the legs, or lower legs, and an arm would be fine, if that would work). As far as the face and artisan roles, I don't need to be particularly good at either, but the better I am, well, the better.

Thinking on it, I think I'd rather go the cyberware route, since my GM has stated that he would prefer we not use (much) magic. But of course, if the Adept route leads to a more versatile character (especially if it has more room to grow) then I'll run that by him.

I'll ask my GM if a composure check or drugs would allow me to use Neo-Cortical Nanites in stressful situations. Where are they found, though?

Melee is really only for the true specialists.

And what makes a true specialist? The ability to take as much damage as he can put out? Would that make this a role I could build into, once I can afford the appropriate 'wares?

[Yerameyahu]

Surely the entire reason for the 'distraction/stress' rule is to limit the use of this, Karoline. It's hardly an "offhand statement", and it's not like you can't use those dice in a thousand other situations. The sam isn't using nanites that specifically say he can't be stressed! The hacker, on the other hand, has a direct book example of a hacking situation in which the nanites don't work.

(Incidentally, that same list of stressful examples pretty much locks up the 'Logic-linked means hacking' argument, don't you think? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) )

No, I meant that a true specialist is required for melee because you need a pretty significant chunk of attributes, skills, qualities, augmentations, and gear to be good enough at it to (a) go against other melee specialists and (b) do any better than just using a gun. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Melee is at a disadvantage, so you have to be really good to compensate.

[WhiskeyJohnny]

Then what is needed in order to go up against other melee specialists, and do better than using a gun, if you don't mind my asking?

[Karoline]

Well, if you want to avoid the cyberlimbs, I highly suggest looking over my build, which could fairly easily be tooled over to a human with a low strength. Lots of cyber, but none except for the foot and datajack obvious at all.

As for Yera's comments, melee has alot of dice to defend with. More than you generally have to attack with. An attack is stat+skill+bonuses, and a defense is stat+skill+bonus+(with an action spent) skill again. This means you generally need to be significantly better than your opponent in order to land hits in melee. For ranged however it is stat+skill+ (easier) bonuses vs stat+(with an action spent) skill, this means it is usually fairly easy to hit your opponent even with fairly lackluster skill and stat.

Then there is damage. For a gun, a 6p/-1 weapon is exceedingly easy to grab, and an easier attack means more net hits usually. To get that with melee you generally need a high strength and a good weapon, and it will still be lower because you're not going to have as many net hits.

And all of that is before taking into account your 1m range with melee compared to your 100+ meter range with guns. This is an even bigger problem when you consider that you can only run so far, regardless of # of IP, meaning that if you start combat from too far away, an enemy with a gun could get literally dozens of shots off on you before you even get to swing.

All in all, melee is just generally full of problems, and is why it requires a much higher degree of specialization to be useful. You need larger DPs, you need a way to ensure you can be in melee (higher stealth requirements) and/or the ability to run crazy fast, you need a high strength (usually a dump stat), you need higher base DV because you'll get less net hits.

So, unless you're playing a character that is entirely focused on being good at melee, you're going to be really really bad at melee.

[Yerameyahu]

That about covers it, but I'd also mention Martial Arts and maneuvers (more BP/karma investment).

[WhiskeyJohnny]

I see. And I've been going over your build, it seems like it ticks most of the boxes (if I'm reading it right at least). I'm just having some trouble parsing it out, but that's just being new to the system. I'm not sure what some of the stuff is or is doing though, namely the reusable auto injector. What does that do for me? Also, I'm not so sure I need to avoid the cyberlimbs, I just want to make sure I've got at least one arm that's pure meat (for flavor). And is there anything I get from Wired Reflexes 2 that I wouldn't get from Move-by-Wire 2? I'm interested in at least having the capacity to run skillsofts to shore up some skills I'm not terribly good at, if need be.

Where are martial arts and maneuvers found? I remember seeing something about martial arts in the core book, but it sounds like you mean something a bit more detailed, Yerameyahu.

On another note, I just got Arsenal and Unwired, so if there's anything in either of those that would help me, or that I should be saving karma/ (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) for, let me know.