Improving Cyberware, Because ware shouldn't become obsolete Options

[Vuron]

In the case of Cheap skillsofts, cheap skills are not the problem (I think many people already make skill points cheaper), it's that BP (or karma for karmagen) isn't standardized across all build options, but honestly that happens with all facets of ware and gear. Muscle Toner is 8k a level or 1.6 BPs, raising agility by +1 is worth at least 10 BPs. Yes, essence factors in but Toner allows you to exceed racial maximums, etc.

As such it's already apparent that 1BP spent on one phase of char-gen does not equal 1BP spent during a different phase.

Assuming that it's okay to have gear buy attributes at a discount rate, I don't really see a problem with skills being purchased at a discount rate.

Worst Case scenario the character has 10 skill ranks worth of activesofts active at any one time. While that might seem like a lot for the most part people aren't going to chip a bunch of rating 1 skillsofts on a rating 5 skillwire system. More likely you are looking at someone with a rating 4 system chipping a rating 4 activesoft (insta veteran) and a couple of mission specific active skills like drive or mechanic, etc.

I don't really see that as particularly gamebreaking especially if they can't use edge to boost chipped skills. Anything that you are going to want to really rely on (your core competency so to speak) is probably going to be a natural 5 or 6 anyway that you can boost with edge as needed. If activesofts allow the samurai to cover the role of wheelman for a mission or allow people to cover low usage skills on an adhoc basis (like diving or parachuting) I think that allows for a greater variety of missions than B&E with infiltration and maximum carnage.

[Yerameyahu]

Hehe. I'm just saying that I'm happy for people to have more general skillsets of *low*-level skills. I just don't want people to easily acquire a set of 8 Rating 5 skills that they can Edge reroll. Low-grade flexibility and generalization is fun, a cheap path to near-max specialization is not fun.

That's exactly the point, Vuron. You can get up to 10 Rating 5 skills with Edge rerolls. Now, we've established that you can't pirate that, so it's expensive, but you *can* pirate the Rating 4 (DIMAP, Optimized), and swap them with a thought if you need more than 8 or 10 at once. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[sabs]

The problem with Legal Skillsofts is they have things like the Ares Gunman 3000® won't let you pull the trigger if you're shooting at someone wearing Knight Errand, or Ares Security Uniform.

[Dakka Dakka]

That's exactly the point, Vuron. You can get up to 10 Rating 5 skills with Edge rerolls. Now, we've established that you can't pirate that, so it's expensive, but you *can* pirate the Rating 4 (DIMAP, Optimized), and swap them with a thought if you need more than 8 or 10 at once. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Ah no. Skillwires allow up to 10 points of skills not 10 skills. So that's two at 4 and one at 2, or one a 4 and two at three or even ten at 1 at the same time not more. Anything else has to be switched out.

[sabs]

PLUSCOD 3, means you can run rating 4 software, using up 1 slot.

So, you can have 10 rating 4s (each with pluscod)

[Yerameyahu]

Sorry, Dakka Dakka. I'm sure I confused you by accidentally saying 'Optimized' instead of 'PlusCoded'. Still, you should have known better, because we were talking about it earlier. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Dakka Dakka]

Since I have not actually played a hacker character, I have rarely looked into Unwired, I totally forgot what it does I though it was the +1 die option. Pluscode really makes skillwires a lot more powerful. Then again with the inflated cost of SR4A having 10 rating 4 Activesofts is very expensive.

[Yerameyahu]

Right, which is why we're talking about pirating them. It's like you're not reading. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) Hehe.

It *should* be very expensive, because those skills are very expensive… and technically have to to be trained slowly using an expensive tutor.

[Vuron]

Well if you do (rating x 2500) then you just need to make each simsense option coded add +1 to the basecost effective rating.

Pistols 5 (Pluscode 3) + Personalized + DIMAP would be 25,000 base cost

Yeah you could stock up with 10 Tricked out Autosofts but would you really want to?

The problem is actually more tied to the pirate software option which allows you to get high-end software at a fraction of the market rates. If the discount rate was actually closer to the second hand cyberware rate + some low maintenance payment it wouldn't be such a big game balance problem. Warez makes some sense from a world design perspective but isn't particularly great from a game balance perspective.

[Brainpiercing7.6...]

Warez makes some sense from a world design perspective but isn't particularly great from a game balance perspective.

But really, there is no alternative to having warez. What's worse? I slot a pirated skillsoft, or I summon an R6 task spirit? For free, even.

YES, I think having high-end skillsofts piratable makes no sense, because they should be tailored to the user. But as it is right now, they are not, and all a GM can do is make his players roll a bit for them. There were plenty of sensible house-rule options discussed above.

The problems lie in the basic game design: There is no consistent cost model. The system is all about cheating the system, so you migth as well accept it. Basically all software could be free entirely, and it would not change game balance in the least.

[Yerameyahu]

Just to nitpick, it'd be Pistols 4 + Personalized + PlusCode 3 + DIMAP. Under the RAW, that's 40k+9k, or 4600 pirated and without the Personalized.

So, my point is that cost should fit benefit. If that means raising their cost (directly, or by removing piracy, etc.), then yes. If it means reducing their benefit (lower cap, whatever), then yes. It just depends on the world that you want to exist.

To summon a R6 task spirit, you have to invest considerably in Magic, skills, materials (only if you want to bind it), be the right tradition, etc. Skillware is cheap.

[LurkerOutThere]

But really, there is no alternative to having warez. What's worse? I slot a pirated skillsoft, or I summon an R6 task spirit? For free, even.

We were discussing exactly this, just the other day at game, it's ridiculous that skillsofts were somehow unbroken cheap when task spirits, guardian spirits, and machine sprites exist.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Just to nitpick, it'd be Pistols 4 + Personalized + PlusCode 3 + DIMAP. Under the RAW, that's 40k+9k, or 4600 pirated and without the Personalized.

So, my point is that cost should fit benefit. If that means raising their cost (directly, or by removing piracy, etc.), then yes. If it means reducing their benefit (lower cap, whatever), then yes. It just depends on the world that you want to exist.

To summon a R6 task spirit, you have to invest considerably in Magic, skills, materials (only if you want to bind it), be the right tradition, etc. Skillware is cheap.

Like any other Program, you can only have 2 options installed in a Rating 4 Skillsoft... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Yerameyahu]

Better choose between PlusCode and DIMAP, then. Personally, I never use Edge, so I wouldn't care. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) On the other hand, if you skip Personalized, you can pirate them, so that's a solid choice. You get the idea, the details aren't important. I guess I should have said, 'just to reiterate' instead of 'nitpick'.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Better choose between PlusCode and DIMAP, then. Personally, I never use Edge, so I wouldn't care. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) On the other hand, if you skip Personalized, you can pirate them, so that's a solid choice. You get the idea, the details aren't important. I guess I should have said, 'just to reiterate' instead of 'nitpick'.

Heh... No worries. And if you want to use Edge, just get the Skillwires Expert System. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Yerameyahu]

It's true. I usually forget about that because DIMAP is strictly better (in the sense of 0 Essence)… except when the program option limit comes into play! Smart. Also, it's cheaper if you're not pirating, and eventually even if you are.

[Dakka Dakka]

DIMAP is just as limited as the Expert System, I would not bother with it.

[Yerameyahu]

That's not false, but some people would bother with it. It's not 'real Edge', no, and thank goodness. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) A little game balance, surprise!

The real issue is the power vs. cost of skillware. Without piracy, it's near par with real skills; with piracy, it's insane. Imposing some pretty serious GM-fiat limits/penalties can help, but that's only fair if everyone knows ahead of time.

[LurkerOutThere]

But again, it shouldn't really be a question of skills vs skillsofts, it should be skills vs skillsofts vs spirits/sprites. It's false to say X and Y should be comparable when Z is over there blowing them both out of the water.

[Yerameyahu]

I already addressed that, but… of course. Game balance is total game balance. Still, that's not an argument to allow a broken thing because something *else* is also broken. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Real skills are the real baseline. If you want skillsofts to compete with spirits (honestly, I don't understand that comparison in the first place), then you're only creating a world where the only two (medium-term) options are magic or skillsofts.

As has been said several times in this thread, improving cyberware should not be just power-creeping it up to magicrun levels. Cyber should largely be a cheap-ish, 'quick fix' option for augmentation, something the suitably desperate use to compete. At the high end, it's also something that augments metahumanity in gross and impressive ways, well beyond what bioware can handle. Augmentation as a whole (bio, cyber, nano, etc.) should probably be about par with magic, depending on the configuration, and only in those areas that have direct equivalents. Not everything overlaps, nor should it.

[Brainpiercing7.6...]

I already addressed that, but… of course. Game balance is total game balance. Still, that's not an argument to allow a broken thing because something *else* is also broken. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Real skills are the real baseline.

Actually, they are not, because if they were, then skillwires would be useless. Skillsofts are a means of getting skills cheaper, if they weren't, then there would be no reason to ever get them. Which means they automatically compete with other means of getting skills cheaper.
As it is, they are hardly useful with the SR4A prices if you don't take the MBW, anyway. And even then, you can't afford more than one skill at chargen, so they don't do what they are supposed to do: Provide "cheap" versatility. If I want cheap vesatility I'll get good base stats and just buy a lot of skills at 1, and buy a specialisation with karma in game.

If you want skillsofts to compete with spirits (honestly, I don't understand that comparison in the first place), then you're only creating a world where the only two (medium-term) options are magic or skillsofts.

You're not, you're creating a world where you have all the options: You want bleeding edge, you need real skill+edge. You want versatility, you take skillwires. Magic is sort of the middle ground from a competence perspective, and it still can't do everything. (Matrix skills, for instance.) In end what matters is to make everything interesting and any fix to skillsofts will have to keep that mind.

[ZeroPoint]

Since this thread got huge over the weekend i'm not gonna read through all the stuff thats come between page 10 and 23.

But since we are now on the subject of skillwires I thought I'd mention a fix I've come up with in my game to get around the problem of pirated skillwires.

First I made Skillsofts dirt cheap...like Rating x (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) 100 or somesuch...you can pirate it if you want, you don't save a whole lot

Second, I made it so its not just a plug and play insta-veteran. Each person is different and so any skillwired user has to have any skillsofts properly calibrated. Calibration requires a difficult Cybertechnology extended test as well as Software exteded test (4+[ratingx3], 1 hour) for noncombat and (5+[ratingx4], 1hour for combat skills). Players purchasing legal software can opt to have it installed and calibrated for them at a cost of (rating x 2000) for noncombat skills and (rating x 4000) for combat skills, and of course requiring licenses for most combat skills.

After they have been installed and synched with a given skillwire/user set, they can be removed at any time, but doing so causes a slight disorientation for a short period afterwards (-1 dp on all tests for [rating] combat turns) and reinsertion requires [rating] minutes to resynch the user with the skillsoft.

Havn't thought about the pluscode abuse yet, but one simple ruling would be to say you can't pluscode activesofts

[ZeroPoint]

Also, I had been considering implementing a "skillsoft fatigue" based off of the number and ratings of skillsofts plugged in for extended periods. Havn't come up with a mechanic that i liked and has the desired effect on the game.

[sabs]

except of course that PLUSCODE is specifically for activesofts (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Yerameyahu]

Actually, they are not, because if they were, then skillwires would be useless.

I don't understand this sentence. Possibly you're misunderstanding what 'baseline' means?