Fixing speed in melee?, Just might work. Options Track this topic Email this topic Print this topic Download this topic Subscribe to this forum Display Modes Switch to: Outline Standard Switch to: Linear+

[Moon-Hawk]

Lantzer-I like that too. A small advantage, and one that tips the scale in the case of a near-tie, but not something to ever let a speedy moron beat a slow master.

[BitBasher]

[A Clockwork Lime]

[Zazen]

I saw the point. Ignoring ties is one reason that you have a problem with the melee system. :P

[A Clockwork Lime]

No, I'm dissatisifed with the way Reflexes are handled in melee combat. I also don't care for the ties-go-to-one-side-or-the-other rule (which specifically only applies to melee combat and a rare few other instances in the game -- so it was quite deliberate). Those are 1) two seperate things and 2) hardly the sum of how melee combat is handled.

But if either of you feel like arguing the point for why it makes sense and why NO chance -- none, zip, zilch, nadda -- for a tie should exist in melee, feel free to offer it up.

[Entropy Kid]

Well, ties going to the attacker is a benefit to those who go initiate an attack = those that go first = those with higher initiative. Then again, that reasoning breaks down since everyone gets a chance to attack, but higher initiative means more attacks. If you meant some reason that had anything to do with the way fighting "works" in the real world; I don't have one.

I like the idea of limiting counter attacks, but I don't know if I like one Simple Action for one counter attack. A Complex Action allows an infinite number of attacks in one turn (with added difficulty), and the difficulty of countering multiple enemies is built into Friends-in-Melee. Perhaps the spent Simple Action lasts until the next turn for the defender. When a character is out of turns, they still lose the ability to counter attack.

edit. Clarifying. I don't propose you change the rules in your game, but I'm curious about your opinion on my little revision.

[A Clockwork Lime]

I'm cool with just allowing one counterattack per available attack. We just enjoy the Simple Action aspect of it in our games. It demonstrates that an aggressive attacker can keep the opponent off balance (just enough to cause a counterattack, but not initiate a full attack themselves), while still giving the defender some options if and when his turn comes up, even if one of those isn't the ability to initiate an attack themselves. For instance, if he's facing multiple opponents he can "pass" his turn and use the remaining Simple Action to make another counterattack. Or he can use it to disengage and try to find cover. Or pull away and shoot a pistol. Or etc.

[Zazen]

[Mardegun]

I am just going to give my option without reading any posts ... so excuse me if I repeat what someone else said.

My in house rule for this is simple.
1) Attacker tn is 4 plus any modifiers
2) Defender can counter attack with a tn equal to the SKILL of the attacker or 4, which ever is higher. Normal modifiers apply.

For example an Attacker as a skill of 6 and Defender has a skill of 4. Even if the defender has more actions then the attacker, the defender is at a disadvantage.

This resolves all problems any of my SR groups have ever had with melee combat. The advantage clearly goes to the attacker, assuming they have any real skill and if the attacker doesn't have skill ... why are they doing melee attack?

As a black belt, this rule makes perfect sense. My discipline focuses on self-defense and it isn't easy. Defense is much easier when you are the aggressor. If you are reacting or 'responding' to a attack, you are at a significant disadvantage. Only with enough training can you effectively defend yourself from an attacker or group of attackers.

[Arethusa]

[Zazen]

[A Clockwork Lime]

If nothing more, it's a balance issue. It would make augmented reflexes too powerful and would be wholly unfair all around. It also falls in line with a similar rule from ranged combat that's found in the Cannon Companion, namely the optional Athletics and Dodging rule on page 97. At least philosophically.

[Arethusa]

[Zazen]

Since you both seem to admit that the blocking thing is not realistic but still a desirable part of the game, I submit that some people find counterattacking the same way. It's just personal preference.

Anyway, that's how it is with me. I happen to like the way counterattacking works, and its minor silliness has never been so extreme as to jerk me out of the game with feelings of disbelief. I find it a desirable part of the game.

[A Clockwork Lime]

I totally understand that and realize it really does come down to a personal preference. I'm just saying that as it stands, it really doesn't make a lot of sense.

In Shadowurn, boxing has got to be really boring, especially since it would almost never last more than a round (two minutes, or approximately 40 Combat Turns). With ties being ties, one can almost accept that it might be possible to last several minutes between two equally competent opponents. But as it stands... that's just not gonna happen.

Assume that average boxers are Body 6 and Strength 6. Their punches deliver 6M Stun on a tie. With Body 6 and even Combat Pool 6, that's not enough to reliably reduce each and every blow away to nothing, so they're going to be taking at least a Light wound every phase. And even for unaugmented boxers scoring only an Initiative of 9 or lower, 40 Turns is a loooong time. And that's just for one round.

[Lantzer]

A very long time. Of course (thinking back to plebe year) it _is_ a very tiring few seconds.

The sport in SR rules has a little hope due to the combat turns spent dancing around
and jockeying for position. Boxing is one of the many sports that consists of:

Begin!
wait
wait
wait
flurry of action
wait
wait
flurry of action
wait
flurry of action
DING!

Begin!...

[Zazen]

Even if you call ties full blocks the fight only lasts a few rounds. It's only remotely concievable that it lasts more than a minute. :P


And I'm glad that my point came across. If we're going to be unrealistic about melee lets do it in the way that we like the best. :)

[John Campbell]

Boxing gloves are padded to reduce damage, so they shouldn't do the full (Str)M barehanded damage. Might be 4M or 6L.

On the other hand, because TN modifiers are so overwhelmingly significant, the first guy who takes even an L Stun is almost guaranteed to lose every single pass after that, by increasingly large margins, and will probably go down within three passes.

[Smiley]

HELL yes. Once you start losing in melee combat, odds are, you're going to keep losing. (Just try hand-to-hand with a Fenrir Wolf when you already have a medium. But i digress...) Which is why i like this rule, being both speedy AND almost exlusively melee (and souped up with lots of pain resistance).

[Jason Farlander]

Actually I think Lantzer, despite his somewhat condescending attitude, is on to something... bonus dice do provide an edge without being as completely overpowering as TN mods.

I propose a simplification: every bonus die granted by reflex augmentation also counts as a bonus die in melee tests. As such, your unaugmented grand master martial artist with skill 8-9 will generally not lose to your wired III speed demon with a skill of 4-5... but when that speed demon starts getting into martial arts skill of 6-7 mr grandmaster is going to start feeling the hurting.

It might not be *as much* of a bonus as some people would like (limiting number of possible defense actions provides a much more powerful edge to augmented characters), but its certainly easy to calculate, that calculation stays as long as the character's initiative dice remain unchanged, and it provides a consistent edge that is more meaningful against low skilled opponents than highly skilled ones. I like it.

[Entropy Kid]

In my totally uninformed opinion, I suggest limiting the number of bonus dice to the applicable skill rating. Something doesn't seem right about a character with Unarmed Combat 1, but Boosted Reflexes 3 and Synaptic Accelerator 2 getting an effective melee combat skill of 6. If only using pure "reaction dice" it should probably also count as defaulting to an attribute. Do you think these dice should be allowed to add on to defaulting to Strength?

[Arethusa]

I'd say more that you should just limit the bonus to skill or half skill, assuming you want to go this route. Personally, I still dislike making speed and skill mechanical equivalents.

[Jason Farlander]

[Entropy Kid]

Oh, I forgot to ask; Do magical increases to Initiative dice count too? Does it stack with the adept's Improved Ability? All things to consider.

[A Clockwork Lime]

My problem with allowing a major reflex difference provide some kind of solid bonus is that it winds up making augmented reflexes a "must have" in melee situations. I really do like the idea of an unaugmented combatant being able to hold his own in a fight, but by giving some kind of Reach or die bonus, that kind of melts the concept right away.