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[ravensmuse]

I neverf said "Fuck transhumanism." I said that transhumanism in SR could die a horrible death. Subtle difference, it's true, but c'mon, man, get it right!! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

And you can be disappointed in me all you want. It's not an element of the game that makes any sense to me, really. What can I say? I'm old, and while I'm still relatively flexible, I'm growing more ossified by the minute.

I'll steal a signature someone on rpg.net had once - "Fuck you Phillip K. Dick, we're sticking wires in our brains!"

I get it's not your thing, and considering I agree with you on other stuff (your recent comments on HMHVV positive folks, for instance) I guess I can let that one slide (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Dood. You're such a liar. You found out about Taqwacore because I left up a Hijab fashion blog on the computer.

I shorthanded! I'm sorry! Yes, Tehana left it up on the computer, I read about it through her. God, it's like being at work all over again (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[nezumi]

I think Cheops nicely summarized the situation with SR3.

I've tried SR4. I didn't like it. I don't like the art, the mechanics, the setting, or the metaploit (with a few exceptions in all cases), so I don't play it. I also don't introduce new players to it.

When I play SR3, all of our issues have basically been hashed out. I, at least until recently, participated in SR3R, but that's been kicked off of DSF, so if you don't look for it, you won't see it. But that's what my players and I discuss.

I really can't comment on the SR3/SR4 numbers. I imagine SR4 has more players, but I also imagine if the line were to suddenly stop producing, those SR4 numbers will drop to be comparable to, or below SR3. I think SR3 has a staying power that just isn't there yet with SR4 (of course, I'm also extremely biased).

As for transhumanism ... I'd love to play in a Diamond Age setting. But I'll also want to play in a Cyberpunk setting. Not saying a transhuman Shadowrun would be bad, but when I go to Shadowrun, transhumanism won't be what I'm looking for.

Unfortunately, I do think the transhumanism bit is an indicator that Shadowrun as a line may be losing its direction. Cyberpunk is, well, punk. The argument has been made that 'punk is dead' and 'cyberpunk is dead', and to a degree, I can believe it. When I play SR, I play an offshoot of 1989, not an offshoot of 2012. When I read SR stuff now, I get a more generic 'action/adventure' feel than I did before. Maybe transhumanism is the philosophy that will give SR back its spark. I don't know. But as it is, I don't feel anything that makes me say 'wow, this is the thing I am willing to fight for'.

[CanRay]

The rest of the stuff you dredged up, especially Bobby's quotes, I'll deal with later. Possibly much later, depending on how I'm feeling at the time.

It's sad the way things went with him. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/frown.gif)

[bibliophile20]

I dunno. Speaking as someone that was only introduced to Shadowrun with 4th ed, it managed to pull me in and make me a devoted fan enough that I tried to a run a game five years ago--first game ever GMed, was a disaster; shifted to GMing other games, got enough experience in GMing doing that to learn what to do--and now I'm back running SR4, and I've gotten four players interested enough in the setting that after just two and a half months of sessions, they're willing to commit to a campaign extending beyond the current school year--and all of those players were born in the 90s. So there's clearly something that 4th Ed is doing right.

[Patrick Goodman]

re: Bobby Derie

It's sad the way things went with him. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/frown.gif)

It is, and it was then, too. And I'm upset about some of the things I said, and I regret that Bobby now seems to lump me in with "the enemy," but I can't help that. I did what I did, and I said what I said, and it's how things are. Wish it wasn't that way, but it is.

[Bull]

On the transhumanism front, and witha "marching the tech forward and matching real life"...

The problem is Shadowrun starts falling apart the more of this you do. The internet is FREEDOM. Technology, readily available technology adn the ability to transform yourself is FREEDOM. And freedom is very much NOT what Shadowrun is about. That's what makes runners stand out, is that they've shucked the social and societal bonds because they want to be free.

It also starts seriously blurring the lines between the "1%" and the "99%" to borrow a modern concept. I've long argued taht Shadowrun is a classic Cyberpunk style game. Shifting it to a more modern transhumanist world works,a nd works very easily, but in doing so the entire nature and tone of the game shifts as well. And that's a problem. It's akin to an Old West game transitioning into the Roaring 20s. Logically, it has to progress to taht point. But once you do, the game and the flavor changes drastically, and you're no longer playing the same game.

I have no problem with the transhumanist genre, and there are several transhumanist games out there already. Eclipse Phase being the best of the lot by far. i'm with Patrick (and a lot of fans I talked with at Origins and Gen Con) when i say I don't really like Shadowrun sliding into that genre. It's not the game I signed on for.

(Now, for both myself and I think I can speak for Patrick, this is simply our opinions. If the powers that be decide we're going more transhumanist, then we are. It's just not what I personally have an interest in seeing SR become, because then it's no longer Shadowrun.)

Bull

[Critias]

If the powers that be decide we're going more transhumanist, then we are.

Only if we take the contract to do the writing. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) One glorious benefit to freelancing is that we aren't obligated to tackle a project if it doesn't interest us. If an upcoming project was gonna be SHADOWRUN: NINTH EDITION: FUCK YOU CYBERPUNK, YAY TRANSHUMANISM, no amount of you pandering to my Urban Brawl, Ancients, or Tir fanaticism would get me to pitch for a chapter and request a contract, y'know?

And that's one strength we have, collectively, as the simultaneously writers and fans of a system. If absolutely none of us will touch a project with a ten foot pole, that project just won't get made, because there would be no one to write it. So for as long as some folks are still around and putting their names on books, you can kind of count on Shadowrun's flavor trying to stay...well...Shadowrun.

[CanRay]

And fans have chairs, dice bags, and duct tape that we can bring to conventions. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[ravensmuse]

And I'm not arguing for sleeves, or meshnets, or uplifted dolphins, or anything else that people seem to equate to YAY TRANSHUMANISM (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Augmentation has always been about being better than you were before, and that element's been in there since 1e. But tech improves; to say that it just stays in one spot because of weird misplaced fears of being "TRANSHUMANIST!" is just kind of...silly and reactionist and could actively harm the fandom down the line.

And while the Internet may lead to freedom, it's still a freedom you have to fight for. Look at the SOPA act right now in Congress. Look at the fact that the Pirate Bay is taking torrents off of their sites, and the national firewalls that Australia and China have up restricting what information people can and can't see. The fight for that information would be especially more important in Shadowrun, where megacorps run everything and who knows WTF GOD is up to.

Let me put it this way - Tehana follows a photojournalist group on Tumblr, and they show wars and revolutions going on right now, at this very moment. How important and inspirational is it to be able to see that, and the actual people involved (y'know, the civilians and the people who can't / won't fight) and understand the humanity behind revolution? It's an important tool that everyone in power would love to lock down. That's Shadowrun right there.

[Neurosis]

And I'm not arguing for sleeves, or meshnets, or uplifted dolphins, or anything else that people seem to equate to YAY TRANSHUMANISM (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Wait I'm sorry are uplifted dolphins now somehow NOT cyberpunk?

Augmentation has always been about being better than you were before, and that element's been in there since 1e. But tech improves; to say that it just stays in one spot because of weird misplaced fears of being "TRANSHUMANIST!" is just kind of...silly and reactionist and could actively harm the fandom down the line.

Oh, I fully agree but I think that makes me a minority among the freelancers. Of course I also think it's possible the very issue of what exactly we're talking about is being misunderstood by all sides, not least of all by me.

[CanRay]

The Internet gives freedom. The Matrix isn't the Internet. The Matrix is the "Internet, brought to you by the Corporate Court".

Not too sure what the big deal about transhumanism is, personally. Hell, my Father got to live to see a day when he'd be a cyborg! For someone who's read Sci-Fi since he was 7, it fills me with joy to know he got to live to see the day, and all other things that he's seen.

When Grandpa was born, mankind was barely able to fly. Dad saw people walking on the moon (Don't start that fight here and now!). I get to see humanity piss away the stars, but made a world so small that friendships know no borders.

Technology marches on indeed.

Wait I'm sorry are uplifted dolphins now somehow NOT cyberpunk?

He's a cybernetic dolphin, but your point is valid.

[Neurosis]

He's uplifted by cyberware. : P

(Actually poor Jones isn't very uplifted at all, but I think my point still stands.)

[ravensmuse]

Wait I'm sorry are uplifted dolphins now somehow NOT cyberpunk?

I don't think anyone wants to admit to that movie existing, much less that they've seen it. I have, and it was awesobad. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Oh, I fully agree but I think that makes me a minority among the freelancers. Of course I also think it's possible the very issue of what exactly we're talking about is being misunderstood by all sides, not least of all by me.

Honestly, I kind of agree. Like I said, I'm not asking for cybernetic dolphins. I'm just saying, keep the tech angle cohesive with the technology spectrum that Shadowrun has always had, and we'll be fine. But I guess that's not what we're arguing about...?

[Neurosis]

Oh God, did I accidentally link to the movie?

"Johnny Mnemonic" is a short story by William Gibson, and the inspiration behind the 1995 film of the same name.

Oh, no, phew, thank gosh, I didn't. : )

(Seriously, it is pretty bad, but sadly it also has the distinction of "only live-action movie to feature a monofilament whip" that I'm aware of.)

[Patrick Goodman]

Augmentation has always been about being better than you were before, and that element's been in there since 1e. But tech improves; to say that it just stays in one spot because of weird misplaced fears of being "TRANSHUMANIST!" is just kind of...silly and reactionist and could actively harm the fandom down the line.

Bull actually touched on most of my feelings here, but just to add something to it....

Transhumanism, to me, implies that there's some choice. You WANT to take yourself beyond the flesh, you WANT to be more than human. And it also implies that you have the freedom to do so, and the werewithal.

And that's not SR to me.

Augmentation has been there from the get-go, it's true...but until SR4, it was a negative thing. You initially got augmented, not because you wanted to, but because you had to. You signed a contract, you made a deal...something happened, and you found yourself with metal instead of flesh. "Congratulations, sergeant. Your valiant effort saved your unit...but you lost both your arms. You're getting a medal, and five years added to your contract to pay for those new cyberarms you got."

You get the chrome, like it or not...and then you kinda become dependent upon it, and you have to keep upgrading or die. You didn't WANT to become a robot with a human brain, it just kinda fuckin' happened, and that's where the nightmare starts. It's a never-ending cycle.

No one in their right mind WANTS this shit to start with.

That's my take on it, anyway. I know there's tons of incidents in the canon that contradict me on that, but I'm adding elements the other way. I've got a story coming out, hopefully by the end of the month, called "Another Rainy Night," Without giving anything away, I can say that there are two cybered characters in the story...and neither one of them got it of their own volition. Their corps made the decision for them, and could have made some really dickish punitive moves had they declined. But one of those characters did not wake up one day and say, "You know, I think I'll go in and have them lop off my right leg so I can get some more metal in my body." No, she got her ass shot up on the job, and the corp in question (in this case, Knight Errant) looked at the contract she'd signed, and then went all RoboCop on her while she's in surgery and said, "It's more cost-effective to lose the leg, and she gave consent...so lose the leg."

And they both got their contracts extended because of their augmentations, and in one of their cases for the upgrades to the chrome they extended her contract for in the first place...and she's still there, twenty-one years and change later.

No one sane does this shit because they WANT to do it. And that, to me, is the difference between cyberpunk and transhumanism. And the latter doesn't belong in SR, IMHO.

[Wakshaani]

Am I the only one that *likes* the movie?

I mean, it has Lori "Tank Girl" Petty in it (For, like, a third of a second, but) ... that's gotta be worth something, right?

[Wakshaani]

And Patrick makes me giddy. Mmm.

Now, there are some people who *are* technophiles, who *do* go in and get more chrome (Or gills, or whatever) because they want to push what human is, but, by and large? You get it because you have to. Yeah, you can *do* your job on a tortise terminal instead of getting a datajack and going in 'right', but your performance review keep flagging your behavior and your relative slowness. Social pressure is everywhere around you and the payment plan is generous ... why *wouldn't* you let a guy take a drill to your temple and attach wires to your *brain*, right?

Datapushers are there, and cyber-eyes/ears are there for those whith defects ... more than that, you're looking at people getting replacement parts. Or, worse, in an arms race ... you only have last year's wires? That new guy that wants your spot has THIS year's. They're faster than you, and in a gunfight, speed kills. So, do you lag behind teh SOTA or do you dip into your bucket of favors and see about getting wires better than HIS?

But every time you do, you feel your humanity slipping further and further away...

[Neurosis]

Augmentation has been there from the get-go, it's true...but until SR4, it was a negative thing. You initially got augmented, not because you wanted to, but because you had to. You signed a contract, you made a deal...something happened, and you found yourself with metal instead of flesh. "Congratulations, sergeant. Your valiant effort saved your unit...but you lost both your arms. You're getting a medal, and five years added to your contract to pay for those new cyberarms you got."

You get the chrome, like it or not...and then you kinda become dependent upon it, and you have to keep upgrading or die. You didn't want WANT to become a robot with a human brain, it just kinda fuckin' happened, and that's where the nightmare starts. It's a never-ending cycle.

No one in their right mind WANTS this shit to start with.

I like this kind of flavor too, but honestly it's largely incompatible with the experience of the average player/PC. The average player/PC is getting MOAR CYBER because they want to be MORE AWESOME. And the important thing is that's just as true in SR1, SR2, and SR3 as it is in SR4.

The "unwanted" cyberjunk flavor is cool, but it's very much a case of Cursed with Awesome.

Transhumanism as a philosophy isn't incompatible with classic Gibsonesque dystopian cyberpunk, only optimistic/utopian transhumanism is. I'd argue that transhumanism was one of the basic tenets of cyberpunk literature from day one, right up there with "in the future everything sucks". The cool thing about Shadowrun is that we have mechanics like essence which reinforce the fact that turning yourself into a cyborg isn't all sunshine and roses.

[Patrick Goodman]

I like this kind of flavor too, but honestly it's largely incompatible with the experience of the average player/PC. The average PC is getting MOAR CYBER because they want to be MORE AWESOME. And that's just as true in SR1, SR2, and SR3 as it is in SR4.

The "unwanted" cyberjunk flavor is cool, but it's very much a case of Cursed with Awesome.

I'm so proud of myself for not clicking that link....

And if it's not the flavor they're experiencing, then they are (in my not-so-humble opinion) doing something wrong. (I can see a lot of people I know looking at me with their heads about to explode like the dude in Scanners. Yes, I like my game with a ray of hope. Doesn't mean I don't know how to go all dark and shit.)

[Neurosis]

Feeling socially or culturally obligated to turn yourself into a cyborg or needing to do so to put food on the table (for instance if you're a Shadowrunner or a professional athlete who happens to be non-Awakened) is no less grimdark, in my opinion. And honestly, in my opinion, there's something a bit grimdark about the idea of someone so detached from their basic humanity that they want to put "all the cyberware in them" just for fun/just to be better. I mean most of my friends have laundry lists of cyberware from Shadowrun that they'd put in them in a second if it really existed. Personally speaking, I'm not sure I'd go through with that. I'm not sure I would want to really know what 2.8 Essence feels like.

Transhumanism isn't incompatible with dystopia, in fact in its most common science fiction sense transhumanism is innately kind of dark and creepy. The future is scary.

[Kagetenshi]

If they're pressed for money, they might even want to just release the SR3 books that have already been printed. I'd love an ebook copy of Rigger 3.

This has actually been out for a few months now. I did a little dance the day I discovered it.

~J

[Stahlseele]

Is it bad that i can spot a tvtropes link just from the link text, without mouse over hovering to see where it leads? <.<

[Saint Sithney]

No one in their right mind WANTS this shit to start with.

And yet, poor is cool.


I'd be happy with another massive extinction event. That's the only way I can see to move things back to cyberpunk.

[Critias]

And yet, poor is cool.


I'd be happy with another massive extinction event. That's the only way I can see to move things back to cyberpunk.

Speaking only for myself -- moreso than normal, at any rate -- I "keep things cyberpunk" by ignoring and/or glossing over the stuff I don't like. If parts of a setting book feel too much like an iCity, all soft lines and clean plastic and high tech? I write about a different part of that city, where joygirls still have to work in the meat, the gutters are full of beetleheads, nanotech is the stuff they hear about on pirated tridshows instead of the stuff they pick up at the neighborhood street doc's, and the ghouls still want to splash in your blood for kicks instead of lobbying for the right to vote.

Sometimes it's all about where you choose to focus, not when.

[Bull]

There's a lot more to my comments, as a note. I'm simplifying because i don't have the time nor, honestly, the inclination to debate my points yet again. So don't take my comment as all inclusive.

I will add, however, that PCs are the exception to any and every rule. they're functionally insane. What they want and do, and what the rest of the world wants and does are two vastly different things, because the players know the numbers and the rules behind the roleplay. it's nearly impossible to separate the two.

*shrug*

Bull