Storm Front is out!, Leading to SR5! Options

[Pepsi Jedi]

...and the drake was not blasted to oblivion afterwards? A dragon followed a drake's order? Really?

If one is going to be killed for disobeying an order in time of war. Are you going to both attack a lieutenant of the Great Dragon. AND get killed too?

Dragons don't have armies, they don't have military structures, they do things together because something requires it and then go about their own business, they are not human.

ANd yet, two greats did in fact have armies. Al had his zealots and Lofwyr pressed adult dragons into service via himself being loremaster. It was a time of war, as they were coming together to battle to their death. You disobey your commander's orders, you face the consequences.

Your comment speaks volumes, because everything about it flies in the face of every supplement about dragons.

No. My comment is on point. The previous things we've seen on dragons were not done while the dragons had lined up and got ready to throw down, face to face with draconic armies at their command. The difference between disobeying an order.... and disobeying one during a time of war.

Except Lofwyr and Alamais had one thing in common, and that was their belief that any life outside of draconic life was lesser, entirely expendable, and in no way was it to ever be compared with draconic life. They serve and live, or oppose and die. Tools no more, no less.

My point was that someone else would have lined up to take out Lofwyr if he ate 300 humans a day and 90,000 a year. That it's not out of line for anyone to assume there's going to be someone coming to kill you if you conduct such behavior.

Nope, Lofwyr would just continue to never, ever, fail at anything, in a potentially fatal manner.

*Shrugs* I like him where he is. I don't think he's 100% infallable. I just think he's the strongest of the Greats. To take him down you're going to need 3 to 10 greats to pull it off. Up to this point we haven't had that. Which make's Al's fight all the more in the realm of hubris. He should have known he didn't have a chance, but hubris strikes the powerful on a shocking scale. As does Zealotry to a cause.

[lokii]

I also find the idea of a dragon unit questionable. These are very territorial creatures and pulling them together at a camp seems a bad idea from the start. So, I can imagine Lofwyr having the authority to gather a bunch of dragons, make them work together, basically treating them like soldiers, but since they are none, why should he do that?

And yes, Lofwyr's drake lieutenant seems to play an entirely too large role here. Shouldn't at least another adult dragon be in charge of the other dragons? Having Scale at the helm seems to assume that a bunch of untrained dragons easily make for a military unit.

[bannockburn]

No. My comment is on point. The previous things we've seen on dragons were not done while the dragons had lined up and got ready to throw down, face to face with draconic armies at their command. The difference between disobeying an order.... and disobeying one during a time of war.

You're anthropomorphizing. It were on point, if both dragons were in fact humans. They're not.

My point was that someone else would have lined up to take out Lofwyr if he ate 300 humans a day and 90,000 a year. That it's not out of line for anyone to assume there's going to be someone coming to kill you if you conduct such behavior.

Well, the premise for him actually doing that would have to be pretty stunning after all that's been established, but yes, I agree. That's one stunt he couldn't get away with.

[Pepsi Jedi]

Did said drake get crushed for doing that?
Drakes were made to serve, dragons are their masters, a servant killing a dragon that's under the same banner?
Not in a million years that would be tolerated.
Stepping out of line is one thing, getting away with it, is the same as saying Lofwyr sanctioned it.

Because you're ignoring what actually happened. See that's why Hermit's post is 'dangerous' it's given false information and muddied the waters of what happened in the book.

In the book the dragon killed the merc, seemingly with out cause. Scale jumped in to keep the dragons and the mercs from just opening up on one another, and ordered the other dragon killed for disobeying Lofwyr's direct order. Nothing more.

The Dragon had broken a direct order from Lofwyr while in a combat zone in a time of war. he was killed for it. YES In a million years that would be tolerated. Yes Lofwyr CLEARLY was cool with it, because the drake didn't get in trouble the next day when Lofwyr showed up. The Drake was in the chain of command. He was acting at that point as a proxy.

People are acting like not only 'a' great dragon, but 'THE' greatest dragon, wouldn't kill someone for purposefully breaking a -direct order- is strange. I think it's right on par.

Again if you look at the entire situation.. the dragons that were brought there didn't seem happy about it. Then they were forced to fight and die almost to a man(Dragon) in a battle that the three greats could have ended in minutes. You gotta ask yourself why.

Two reasons seem to pop up. 1) Some unspoken Draconic Etiquette, and 2) Lofwyr wanted --those-- dragons to fight and die. They didn't want to be there. They were grouped with a WEIRD grouping of Mercs and runners. And they fought almost to the very last before the greats finally stepped in. It's very plausable that Lofwyr had picked dragons he didn't much LIKE, to come and die at his orders.

[hermit]

Well, the premise for him actually doing that would have to be pretty stunning after all that's been established, but yes, I agree. That's one stunt he couldn't get away with.

The current German metaplot seems to revolve around a coup attempt against Lofwyr.

[Lionhearted]

If one is going to be killed for disobeying an order in time of war. Are you going to both attack a lieutenant of the Great Dragon. AND get killed too?

Drakes are servants, slaves... It's simply what they were made for. It doesn't matter what the drake think he is or what he does... In the eyes of a dragon, he's a thrall, worth less then dust.
A drake ordering the execution of a dragon would be put down like a dog.

[Pepsi Jedi]

Drakes are servants, slaves... It's simply what they were made for. It doesn't matter what the drake think he is or what he does... In the eyes of a dragon, he's a thrall, worth less then dust.
A drake ordering the execution of a dragon would be put down like a dog.

No way. You simply aren't going to say or do crap to Lofwyr's Lieutenant, especially when he's Loremaster.

That's like saying a first or second lieutenant in the army wouldn't do what a 5 star General's adjunct told him to, because technically the adjunct didn't have the rank. And more over that the lieutenant would just shoot him in the face and laugh.

You're just not going to piss on Lofwyr's people that way. yeah dragon's are spunky but they're written not to be stupid.

In the situation described, Scale was speaking for Lofwyr, in charge of the camp till the greats got there. Yes Scale is Lofwyr's servent. but he's -----Lofwyrs' servent------. You not mess with that, else the golden one himself bites off your head.

[lokii]

But that's kinda the point. Putting a drake in charge of other dragons is something you just don't do.

Exactly because dragons are no soldiers, you have to observe other aspects of dragon society. It's one thing to have your servant deliver your explicit wishes to them, it is entirely different to give said servant the command.

[Ixal]

But that's kinda the point. Putting a drake in charge of other dragons is something you just don't do.

Who else would Lofwyr have trusted enough to do this? Some dragon he pressed into service? I don't think Lofwyr currently has a dragon as vassal.
Scale was obviously empowered to speak for his master. So it only makes sense that the dragons followed his orders as if they came from Lofwyr himself.

[Lionhearted]

I want to see the part where Lofwyr says "and if they step out of line, kill them" (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
The drake acted beyond his station, put him down like a rabid dog, tis simply how a feudal hierarchy works.

[bannockburn]

And yet, it isn't a feudal hierarchy.
Just as it is not a modern or even old timey military.
It is dragons. I.e.: Not humans

[lokii]

Who else would Lofwyr have trusted enough to do this? Some dragon he pressed into service?
Scale was obviously empowered to speak for his master. So it only makes sense that the dragons followed his orders as if they came from Lofwyr himself.

Again I'm not saying it's not possible, it's just something I would not expect a great dragon and loremaster to do. Also usually great dragons have some adults in the their service. But even if this is not the case for Lofwyr. He can't get one trusting dragon to serve as his lieutenant? That wouldn't reflect well on his persuasive powers.

[Ixal]

Again I'm not saying it's not possible, it's just something I would not expect a great dragon and loremaster to do. Also usually great dragons have some adults in the their service. But even if this is not the case for Lofwyr. He can't get one trusting dragon to serve as his lieutenant? That wouldn't reflect well on his persuasive powers.

I do not know any dragon serving Lofwyr.
And imo the civil war did damaged Lofwyrs standing a lot. Just look at how hard he had to fight to have Sirrung punished and Hestaby spared much (which also cost him).
Thats probably one of the reasons why he resigned as Loremaster. He knew fully well that he lost so much respect that there were challenges incoming quite soon.

Another thing to keep in mind, in a camp of dragons and metahumans a drake is a good compromise.

[Faelan]

Sorry Pepsi Jedi your entire defense of the writing is based on the writing. You can't point to anything in the continuity which supports any of your arguments, including the "Lofwyr is the Greatest of Greats" which is not even supported by stuff CGL has put out. I'm not going to try tearing every one of your responses apart because quite frankly they all make assumptions based on a human perspective. If you actually have read Dragons, Dragons of the Sixth World, or Survival of the Fittest, you would realize that Loremaster is not a position of authority, it is in fact the equivalent of a court stenographer for Councils and a Head Archivist for draconic society. The idea of dragons fighting other dragons because a Great says so is ludicrous. Quite honestly most dragons would take this as an admission of weakness, not to mention it being completely against their very carefully constructed rules of engagement which would likely demand they report this to other Great Dragons, or turn against the Great in question. If you have any knowledge of draconic lore up until this pile of steaming excrement you would realize that the entirety of the rules of their society is to prevent anything but one on one battles for territory and power. Their involvement with metahumans is entirely based on their compulsion to dominate anything in their domain, nothing else. Of course I will concede that you are right, in that this will become the new normal, because I guess CGL has decided to throw out the baby with the sink water and ignore everything that came before. I am happy that you like it, but quite frankly I won't be spending my money on this offal.

[Fatum]

It's as if people don't even read my posts...

A drake is an extension of his master's will. And you can be absolutely sure that Scale had his ways to consult with Lowfyr at a moment's notice. So it wasn't the drake's call anyway.

[Faelan]

It's as if people don't even read my posts...

A drake is an extension of his master's will. And you can be absolutely sure that Scale had his ways to consult with Lowfyr at a moment's notice. So it wasn't the drake's call anyway.

I'm sure he did, and this is also part of the whole flawed logic of the entire situation. It reminds me of Livingroom Games "Barsaive at War" an extremely flawed piece of trash not worth the paper wasted in its production.

[Pepsi Jedi]

Well I haven't posted in a few hours. You might be referencing Ixal there, but yeah I have some answers. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Sorry Pepsi Jedi your entire defense of the writing is based on the writing. You can't point to anything in the continuity which supports any of your arguments, including the "Lofwyr is the Greatest of Greats"

Lofwyr is Loremaster, so he's in charge.

which is not even supported by stuff CGL has put out.

Sure it is. Loremaster is a position in Dragon society, which pretty much means you can make the rules. how do we know? Because the 'next' lore master just up and says "Dragon retribution on metahumanity for past slights, can go on for another year (( Very short term for dragons)) Then it's done and all 'revenge' type depts are paid up. One year from today, then ya gotta quit it.

I'm not going to try tearing every one of your responses apart because quite frankly they all make assumptions based on a human perspective.

Naaa. The examples are from a human perspective. The responces are to what was actually done. What I personally find amusing is some people acting like they know what 'Draconic perspective' would be.

If you actually have read Dragons, Dragons of the Sixth World, or Survival of the Fittest, you would realize that Loremaster is not a position of authority, it is in fact the equivalent of a court stenographer for Councils and a Head Archivist for draconic society.

And yet they have the ability to dictate to the entire of dragon society? They're more than a sternographer, but thanks for the laugh.

The idea of dragons fighting other dragons because a Great says so is ludicrous.

Dragons fought other dragons because -Lofwyr- told them to. Why is it so ludicrous? lol The piece shows the power divide from great to 'adult'. If someone is ---that much more powerful than you--- and can quite literally kill you with a point of a claw, how is it soooo ludicrous that someone would do what they said? Especially an authority figure.

Honestly. What are they going to do. Say "get bent Lofwyr"? lol Then. POOF dead dragon. In the chapter Lung quite literaly vaporized two dragons by pointing his scaly finger. POOF. And yet you think it's crazy for them not to do what they're told?

Quite honestly most dragons would take this as an admission of weakness, not to mention it being completely against their very carefully constructed rules of engagement which would likely demand they report this to other Great Dragons,

LOL So it's your arguement, that an adult dragon is 1) Going to tell a great dragon NO when given an order, and more over, fly around and try and taddle on one great dragon to other great dragon's for having the audacity of giving said order.... when it benifits the OTHER great dragons if you do what you're told? lol

Really? So... in this thought process you have going here, are the other great dragons going to pat the tattle tale dragon on the bacck and go "You're right little buddy. Great dragons... like myself...... shouldn't tell you what to do! And you shouldn't have to do what great dragons tell you! How dare a great dragon. Like myself, have such power over other dragons"


Right. If the adult could escape the great dragon he said "No' To, and went running to other great dragons, they're going to, out of the goodness of their hearts, limit their own power, for an adult dragon.....??

or turn against the Great in question. If you have any knowledge of draconic lore up until this pile of steaming excrement

lol Pile of steaming excrement? Come on now.

you would realize that the entirety of the rules of their society is to prevent anything but one on one battles for territory and power. Their involvement with metahumans is entirely based on their compulsion to dominate anything in their domain, nothing else

Nothing else? No personal feelings, wants or needs? Nothing else what so ever other than a race wide compulsion to dominate anything? Sounds like a rather idiotic one trick pony you seem to think dragons are. Instead of the strange, alien, multifacted creatures that do strange things and have their own rules, like they're presented in the books. Nope. Instead they all only interact with metahumanity out of a compulsion to dominate anything in their domain. Nothing else.

Really? That sounds very... simpleminded and flat. I think they have a bit more motivation, and individuality.

. Of course I will concede that you are right, in that this will become the new normal, because I guess CGL has decided to throw out the baby with the sink water and ignore everything that came before.

Or, perhaps.... just perhaps.... there's aspects of Dragon society, that had yet to come out into the open, untill one started gearing up and gathering a cult and ate ninty THOUSAND meta humans, in the open, in a year.

Perhaps that? Perhaps when Dragons, start doing such things that would make them all targets, and defying the loremaster, new hitherbefore unseen behaviors come out? Perhaps Lofwyr wanted to end a possible future threat to his way of thinking, by taking out Al now, before he had 100 Dragons on his side. or 200?

Maybe he had other reasons, because.... he's a dragon?

Or maybe it was just self preservation, that drove him to do something 'new' in dragon society. After all, previously a human nation and Megacorp had teamed up and almost killed Sirrung. If dragons kept attacking Metahumanity, how long before other nations start taking out Dragons? And if that starts and Dragons start fighting back, how long before the corps and the nations team up to take out all dragons?

Sirrung was hard to take down, and that was with out resulting to orbital weapons. But if all dragons are getting fiesty, how long before a nation launches 500 drones full of trackers to just dive bomb a great, marking him for those orbital weapons to unload..... then the next... then the next. We know the Thor shots are back on line. They hit a destroyer moving at 50+ Knots at sea (( I think it was 50+. ))

Your argument is based on, "Dragons have NEVER behaved like this!!" well. Not putting too fine a point on it, but we don't know all the ins and outs of Dragons and their behavior. In the game we've seen some instances of how they act. Under some conditions. Conditions change and we see them act in new ways.

In this case one Dragon had the world hating him and was at war with a Nation/Megacorp to the point that the Mega's and nations started developing dedicated "Anti Great Dragon Weapons".
Another great was trying to get Metahumanity and Dragons to work together. Well they didn't like that at all. ((Less than the above)) But she went on world wide TV and talked to the UN
And for the first time in Earth's long history, metahumanity is in a position and strength level that they CAN kill a great, so we're seeing the dragons react to that. They are old, but if they were 100% stagnant and unchanging they'd be dead. They're showing that while they surely see themselves better than metahumanity, that they can recognize the threat that metahumanity now possesses. They can't just eat what ever humans they want, do what ever they want and laugh if Metahumanity doesn't like it. Metahumanity has Orbital platforms and nukes and conventional forces which they've seen (( bout two weeks ago)) Can take down "THE DESTROYER" if they put their mind to it. (( and that was with out the orbital weapons and nukes)).

I am happy that you like it, but quite frankly I won't be spending my money on this offal.

How do you know it's offal if you haven't read it? You've clearly heard at least two very different representations of that chapter alone.

[Pepsi Jedi]

I'm sure he did, and this is also part of the whole flawed logic of the entire situation. It reminds me of Livingroom Games "Barsaive at War" an extremely flawed piece of trash not worth the paper wasted in its production.

It's only flawed, if you think the adult dragons wouldn't do what they're told from the Greats, who can vaporize you with the point of a finger.

I'm sure some would buck, but those are the ones that are going to be found with Al to start with. Some might try to run (( as the one in the opening fiction does)) and, you see in the opening fiction about how well it works out to try and trick a Great, or go against his/her wishes.

[Sengir]

@Sengir

He could have slapped the dragon and told it off, then glared at humans, and be done with it. A life for a life seems very, very off for Keyser "Lofwyr" Soze.

Sure, because Lofwyr is such a believer in rehabilitation.


As far as the whole discussion about the draconic chain of command goes: We know nothing about dragon customs except "it's complicated", that they are extremely careful with names, and that the customs were created to avoid bloodshed between territorial beasts with earthshaking powers. For all we know, sending an underling to relay orders could be the required procedure because it avoids the presence of the big guy and all the protocolar questions resulting from it.

[Bull]

As my "Author Avatar" is Slamm-0! (amongst others), I love making Bull suffer. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

I like playing around with Slammy and Bull when I write, because there's a fun dynamic between them. Throw /dev/ in, and you have this neat 3-generation set of runners (Bull is firmly early 50's, Slamm-0! is 60's, /dev/ is 70's) each with different views and mindsets. Plus all three are pretty outspoken and very dynamic personalities.

*deep sigh*

Used my rarely-if-ever used FB account and couldn't even figure out how to follow the page. Please a how-to?

Facebook can be a pain, espeically with their damn Timeline function. Makes it tough to easily read past entries in a blog-style format, because they bounce entries back and forth between the two columns on either side of the "line".

I also tend to post a lot of SR-related news there, so it can feel a bit "Spammy" at times (especially lately, since between SR Returns and all the "Year of Shadowrun" dev blogs and teasers and art and stuff, there's a lot happening).

The page itself is set public, so you shouldn't even need to be logged into facebook to look it over. "Liking" the page just adds it to your own Facebook feed.

Anyway, the initial post was from almost 3 weeks ago, which is likely why you didn't see it.

[quote]Missions Season 5 Contact Preview: Det. Nick Ryder

Nick Ryder is a lifelong Lone Star cop working the beat in Chicago. He's a rare individual in Lone Star: an honest man who genuinely wants to help people. He was outside the Containment Zone when Bug City hit. The city was always festering with corruption, but when the CZ went up most of Lone Star seemed to stop caring. Nick did what he could for a while, but eventually crawled into a bottle and stayed there for almost two decades.

However, now that the Governor has instituted "Project: Takeback" to reclaim the Downtown Zone and lure corporations and commerce back to the city, Nick is starting to feel something he hasn't for a long time: Hope. Crime is still rampant, the corruption still runs deep, but now Nick thinks there might be a chance for Chicago to crawl back out from the ruins, and it may just be a chance for him to find some redemption.[/quick]

Just a short quick introduction teaser. Like we did with Season 4, we're going to release a listing of contacts that you'll see throughout Season 5 and a bit of background info and stuff on them. There's one Season 4 NPC transferring over, and a couple of other characters old timers may recognize from past SR material (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) And no, Bull's not moving (back) to Chicago. He's got enough other stuff on his plate these days, and you couldn't pay him enough to go back there, even if the bugs are supposed to be mostly gone. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Bull

[Bull]

It's only flawed, if you think the adult dragons wouldn't do what they're told from the Greats, who can vaporize you with the point of a finger.

There's at least one example in recent books of an adult dragon acting against a great dragon. Granted, he ended up locked up because of that, but still...

Power is not the end all and be all, and dragons don't think or act like humans (even when they seem to).

[CanRay]

I like playing around with Slammy and Bull when I write, because there's a fun dynamic between them. Throw /dev/ in, and you have this neat 3-generation set of runners (Bull is firmly early 50's, Slamm-0! is 60's, /dev/ is 70's) each with different views and mindsets. Plus all three are pretty outspoken and very dynamic personalities.

Well, /dev/ didn't start that way, but we're roughing up her rounded corporate edges quite nicely I think, without changing who the character is too rapidly. Character development happens, but it's not instantaneous.

Thus, the question about the sheep, wanting to know about the cute, cuddly little thing she's only seen in holobooks. As I live in farm country now (as opposed to mining country where I grew up), most of the folks here are a little confused about why she wants it so badly. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Bull]

Well, /dev/ didn't start that way...

That was almost entirely the point of my Kane write up, to be honest. I mean, I love Kane and his backstory is spread all over gods green earth (Researching him was a giant pain in the rumpus), but I did double duty with that write up, because I was trying to give /dev/ a purpose and a bit more personality beyond "Kid who asks stupid questions and WHY IS SHE EVEN ON JACKPOINT???" as well as summarize, wrap up, and give Kane a kickass story as well.

So, yeah, fun.

ANyways, about that STorm Front book...

[Angelone]

We only have cows here so I'm interested in it as well. I like how /dev/ is "growing" up she went from kinda annoying to one of my favorites.

[lokii]

We know nothing about dragon customs except "it's complicated", that they are extremely careful with names, and that the customs were created to avoid bloodshed between territorial beasts with earthshaking powers. For all we know, sending an underling to relay orders could be the required procedure because it avoids the presence of the big guy and all the protocolar questions resulting from it.

A fair point and in general a good reminder. I would still see a difference between relaying orders and giving the underling freedom to make their own decisions as appropriate. But:

A drake is an extension of his master's will. And you can be absolutely sure that Scale had his ways to consult with Lowfyr at a moment's notice. So it wasn't the drake's call anyway.

Probably true, so another fair point.

I guess for me it really comes down to the problem that there shouldn't be a "dragon army" in the first place. I assume dragons can jointly attack some target, if you rally them. But a staging area where you pull them together and make them wait for the attack? That idea would have given me pause.

---

If you actually have read Dragons, Dragons of the Sixth World, or Survival of the Fittest,

Of course there has been some development between the books. In Dragons it started out with multiple loremasters:

Among the dragons of a given region there is chosen one who is known as the Loremaster.

That then became one Loremaster for the whole of dragonkind, it seems.

---

And yet they have the ability to dictate to the entire of dragon society? They're more than a sternographer, but thanks for the laugh.

No, the Loremaster is a record keeper.

there's always one dragon who is responsible for keeping the store of knowledge for all of dragonkind. This dragon is given the formal title of Loremaster.

The position certainly holds prestige but any kind of real power lies with the Dragon Council not with the Loremaster. If Storm Front tells you otherwise ...

And apart from adult dragons. If you look at the intro fiction "A Gathering of Dragons" in Survival of the Fittest, it calls into question the idea of great dragons working side by side. There they constantly assume ritual postures. It's highly formalised. Multiple great dragons would likely avoid coming together in a joint battle where they obviously cannot perform the proper rites and thus risk getting into an inadvertent fray with each other.