Is Automatics the odd skill out?, Single Shot supremacy? Options

[Werewindlefr]

Maybe give them all +1 DV to match other weapons of the same calibre, but in that case I'd emphasise the big-and-loud-and-awkward-in-close-quarters nature of machineguns more during play as well.

I've made two rules for this sort of things, actually:
-Long range accurate weapons have a maximum accuracy at point-blank range (half short range's max distance); that would be 3 for the Ranger Arms (and similar anti-material rifles) and Assault Cannons (on the account of them being spiritual offsprings of anti-material rifles, see Robocop), 4 for regular sniper rifles and 5 for battle rifles.
-Weapons that are too large, heavy or awkward to maneuver for the situation can give between -1 and -3 dice to the range attack roll (this can be an assault rifle in an environments with very little room, or a heavy machine gun in slightly more open room, etc).

[HugeC]

So we now know that if you take an action that isn't shooting, that resets your recoil.

My question is, is a free action an action for this purpose? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/devil.gif)

When they reword that rule in the errata, perhaps they could make it explicit, like, "Recoil continues to accumulate until you take, or are forced into, a Simple or Complex Action other than shooting."

Or not. I mean, I wouldn't mind shouting, "Chicken Butt!" after every full auto burst to reset my recoil.

[Remnar]

By RAW machineguns actually have worse recoil and controllability than rifles, since unsompensated recoil is doubled. (Apparently in SR-land the heavier the weapon the greater the recoil.)

My quick-and-dirty fix would be to strike the double-recoil rule, and instead say that machineguns halve all recoil generated. 6 rounds? 3 recoil. This means that a gyromounted machinegun can fire 10-round burths for several phases in a row before having to pause, giving them an actual niche (and matching their real-world niche of sustained automatic fire). Combine that with the +2 dice to suppressive fire you suggested and I think we're done.

Maybe give them all +1 DV to match other weapons of the same calibre, but in that case I'd emphasise the big-and-loud-and-awkward-in-close-quarters nature of machineguns more during play as well.

Yep, it never made any sense that a weapon that uses the same ammo (or simlar DV) and the same cyclic rate AND was significantly heavier somehow got MORE recoil. Opposite physics I guess.

[forgarn]

Sorry, but i just read this whole thing and there is nothing wrong with the example or the rule. Per the rule you rack up recoil until you stop shooting for one Action Phase. The example shows this by breaking down the "Action Phase" into its parts and Wombat does not fire on the last simple action of the one action phase and does not fire on the 1st simple action of the 2nd action phase. Thus he has not fired for 2 simple actions which equals one whole Action Phase. So if I fire a 3 rnd burst as my 1st simple action and have no penalty (because of strength and the free point) and then use a take aim for my 2nd simple. Next action phase I shoot another 3 rnd burst as my 1st simple action and take -3 penalty and then use a take aim for my 2nd simple action. Next action phase I use a take aim as my 1st simple action my recoil resets because I have not shot for 2 simple actions (or one whole Action Phase). Then as my 2nd simple action I firs a 3 rnd burst I have no recoil (it reset). Next Action phase I fire 3 rnd burst first and take -3 penalty...

As long as you have two back to back simple actions that you do not shooting in you are resetting your recoil. The rule is very specific:

an action other than shooting for an entire Action Phase.[/b]

Bold portion states that you cannot shoot for and entire Action Phase. Action Phase = 1 complex action or 2 simple actions per pg 158

3A. DECLARE ACTIONS
The acting character declares his actions for the Action Phase. He may take two Simple Actions or one Complex Action during his Action Phase

Until and unless I see some errata that changes this, that is the way it is written and that is the way it gets played, regardless of what anyone has said to the contrary.

[Remnar]

So the confustion is simply this. Does the sentence "an action other than shooting for an entire Action Phase" read:

a) an action other than shooting, for an entire Action Phase

or

b) an action other than; shooting for an entire Action Phase

Honestly option b doesn't need punctuation at all, but people seem to be adding in the pause while intrepreting option a, so I had to do something and the semicolon button was compalining that I haven't pushed it in a while.

*Edit: I read it as option B initially, and am not convinced that it is not intended to be read that way.

[Sendaz]

Rumour has it they are thinking of adding recoil to indirect spells just to mess with the reckless casters. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Rumour has it they are thinking of adding recoil to indirect spells just to mess with the reckless casters. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

However, if they choose to be dual-natured, they can ignore the Spell Recoil.

[Werewindlefr]

Rumour has it they are thinking of adding recoil to indirect spells just to mess with the reckless casters. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

You can only use one action for combat spells (or any other attack) per round anyway, because dissociated mechanics are awesome and making sense sucks.

[Skynet]

So the confustion is simply this. Does the sentence "an action other than shooting for an entire Action Phase" read:

a) an action other than shooting, for an entire Action Phase

or

b) an action other than; shooting for an entire Action Phase

Honestly option b doesn't need punctuation at all, but people seem to be adding in the pause while intrepreting option a, so I had to do something and the semicolon button was compalining that I haven't pushed it in a while.

*Edit: I read it as option B initially, and am not convinced that it is not intended to be read that way.

Guess it is some variant of a garden path sentence.

[Flaser]

By RAW machineguns actually have worse recoil and controllability than rifles, since unsompensated recoil is doubled. (Apparently in SR-land the heavier the weapon the greater the recoil.)

My quick-and-dirty fix would be to strike the double-recoil rule, and instead say that machineguns halve all recoil generated. 6 rounds? 3 recoil. This means that a gyromounted machinegun can fire 10-round burths for several phases in a row before having to pause, giving them an actual niche (and matching their real-world niche of sustained automatic fire). Combine that with the +2 dice to suppressive fire you suggested and I think we're done.

Maybe give them all +1 DV to match other weapons of the same calibre, but in that case I'd emphasise the big-and-loud-and-awkward-in-close-quarters nature of machineguns more during play as well.

What the devs must've been trying to model was that heavy weapons are big and unwieldy and unless you have support are hard to fire accurately. In retrospect, doubling recoil may not have been the best rule to use. (For SR4, using as few game mechanics for everything as possible was very much a stated design goal).

So, how about, unless used with support (bipod, tripod, gyro harness, weapon mount), you receive a penalty mitigated by STR?

CODE

Gun Penalty

LMM 6-STR
MMG 8-STR
HMG 10-STR
AC 10-STR
Minigun +2

[Umidori]

I actually quite like that idea. It lets you have guys like Blaine without needing to use Cyber.

~Umi