 How short would you allow a Troll to be? |
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 Nov 12 2005, 06:18 PM
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#26
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Tilting at Windmills  Group: Members Posts: 1,636 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Amarillo, TX, CAS Member No.: 388  |
That's likely to be true, but it's going to be because players like their characters to be the biggest and the baddest looking. While average human height has increased over the years, it hasn't increased that quickly, and with a couple of massively lethal pandemics that chop something like a third of the human population off (when all is said and done; actual figures don't actually exist for what the VITAS plagues did to Earth's population, beyond saying a significant fraction each time was killed), it's not likely to get that much taller than is shown. (Okay, the first VITAS plague wiped out 25 percent of the population, and the second did similar damage. Maybe a third is over-stating it, once it's all added up, but not by much.)
I stand about 6'3" in my bare feet. My ceiling in my house is 8'. Simply standing up shows me that my ceiling is more than a head's height above the top of my head (which my wife tells me is about 10" high). Even if players make their human characters 6' tall, the average troll is still about 26" taller than that human character. That's the height from my lap to my chin if I sit up straight. No matter how you look at it, trolls are pretty big. Then there are those who are going to make their trolls taller than average, just as there are those who are going to make their humans taller than average....
Not a bad pic, but he's short (or there's some funky perspective going on; I personally think the elf chick's standing on something, or she's freakishly tall). |
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Nov 12 2005, 09:56 PM
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#27
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 858 Joined: 25-August 03 From: Braunschweig, North German League, Allied German States Member No.: 5,537 |
Well,I would have prefered fitting the rules to the background (defining the problems trolls face due to their size, defining the equipment trolls can (or can't) use and necessary modifications, etc.) instead of the other way round (making the background a bit less extreme while keeping the rules - that still don't fit). IMHO. |
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Nov 13 2005, 05:10 AM
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#28
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 598 Joined: 12-October 05 Member No.: 7,835 |
My two :nuyen:
I wish elves were slightly shorter than humans. Orks should be slightly taller than humans. Dwarves should be significantly shorter than humans. Trolls should be significantly taller than humans. There are rules in the gear section about how to adjust the price and availability of gear suitable for dwarves and trolls. I know a guy who weighs about 500 pounds. He does not "thunder down the hall" when he goes to lunch. He is actually quite quiet when he walks. 300 kg is about 660 pounds. The extra muscle a troll has would make it more graceful than my large friend. Buildings built during the American colonial period have doorways that are considerably shorter than those built today. People were smaller in those days. Public buildings built after the Awakening would accomodate trolls. As a GM, you can create special situations as you choose to make it hard for troll PCs to get around if you wish. For example, have the runners need to go through a maintenance hole that is too small for a troll. But think about it; troll maintenance workers would not be able to get through, either, so that would not make sense. It makes sense to me that a typical troll would be about a foot taller than Andre the Giant. |
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Nov 13 2005, 05:55 AM
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#29
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 256 Joined: 24-October 04 Member No.: 6,784 |
Patrick, have you considered that the Strength Bonuses for metahuman races may be due to differences in the anchoring of muscles rather than simply adding muscle mass? This may solve some of the silliness caused by simply scaling up muscle mass. IIRC Chimpanzees are lighter than your average human but are significantly stronger because their arm muscles are anchored further away from join (2'' IIRC) giving them much better rotational velocity.
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Nov 13 2005, 06:59 AM
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#30
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,590 Joined: 11-September 04 Member No.: 6,650 |
that reminds me of the Mutant chronicles Cybertronic 'Bone Job'
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Nov 13 2005, 12:06 PM
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#31
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
That'd be 244cm, then. |
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Nov 13 2005, 01:06 PM
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#32
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 858 Joined: 25-August 03 From: Braunschweig, North German League, Allied German States Member No.: 5,537 |
Think the other way: Would giant maintenance tunnels be built to accomodate troll workers - or would rather humns and dwarfs employed as maintenance workers and the tunnels kept small? It irks me that the world, buildings etc. should be so meta-friendly while the books keep on talking about rampant racism. Trolls are the rarest and most extreme of the metaraces. Why should The Powers That Be pay attention to them? |
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Nov 13 2005, 05:30 PM
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#33
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Tilting at Windmills Group: Members Posts: 1,636 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Amarillo, TX, CAS Member No.: 388 |
More muscle does not necessarily equal more grace. Trolls aren't just taller than humans, their proportions are different (which I tried to take into account when I did the weights for SR4). |
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Nov 13 2005, 05:56 PM
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#34
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Tilting at Windmills Group: Members Posts: 1,636 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Amarillo, TX, CAS Member No.: 388 |
It has occurred to me, and that's why I didn't use the whole system in my article (Body and Strength bonuses) into account when I did the heights and weights for SR4, or things would have been really, really massive in places. The bigger metaraces, IMHO, do have longer, heavier tendons and ligaments, which accounts for some of their strength. Let's see, what did I have originally for the five metaraces...? Ah, here we are:
And, just for shits and grins, here are some humanoid critters:
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Nov 13 2005, 08:21 PM
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#35
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 598 Joined: 12-October 05 Member No.: 7,835 |
It is your world. Make it however you want. I would think that there would be quite a few "legacy tunnels" that would be fairly cramped for trolls. Newer stuff might take them into account. As far as rarity, I thought that the metaraces were equally proportioned. It is the law in the United States that the handicapped be taken into account. I don't have the numbers in front of me, but aren't metaraces an even larger portion of the population? And as for racism, maybe what you mentioned irks quite a few others as well. ;) |
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Nov 13 2005, 08:30 PM
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#36
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 598 Joined: 12-October 05 Member No.: 7,835 |
I think the system you created is great! I was implying that there is no need for additional rules that subtract dice from trolls for things like infiltration. In extreme cases the GM should use common sense. If anything maybe you could include sentence in each metarace size description to the effect of " . . . are typically XXX cm tall but can range anywhere from XXX cm to XXX cm." |
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Nov 13 2005, 08:52 PM
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#37
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,086 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 364 |
Nope. Here's a reference, not the most recent, but these numbers are pretty steady regardless of edition:
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Nov 13 2005, 09:12 PM
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#38
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 598 Joined: 12-October 05 Member No.: 7,835 |
Thanks for that. I will try to find the reference I was talking about. I think I read it in first edition and they were talking about worldwide after the awakening. |
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Nov 13 2005, 09:28 PM
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#39
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Tilting at Windmills Group: Members Posts: 1,636 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Amarillo, TX, CAS Member No.: 388 |
I can't find some of my references right now, but on either side of average you can typically find a 15 to 20% variation in height, if I'm remembering everything correctly (and it's entirely possible that I'm not, but my brain's a bit scrambled at the moment from getting ready for the birth of my child, so you gotta cut me some slack). With that in mind, you could wind up with trolls as short as 212 cm (with 15% variance) to 200 cm (at 20%), to as tall as 288 cm (again, at 15%) to 300 cm (at 20%). That's assuming an average of 250 cm. Assuming the book's weight of 300 kg, weights would range from about 154 kg at 200 cm to a whopping 518 kg at 300 cm. With the 335 kg I initially recommended, that weight range goes from 172 kg to 579 kg. This is, of course, without getting into abnormally tall or abnormally short trolls. A troll with acromegaly, the affliction which eventually killed Andre the Giant, could conceivably reach 450 cm with a weight of 1,750 kg...and expect to die of natural causes long before he turned 25. |
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Nov 13 2005, 11:19 PM
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#40
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 858 Joined: 25-August 03 From: Braunschweig, North German League, Allied German States Member No.: 5,537 |
Trolls in European countries (from SoE) AGS: 8% Austria: 2%* Czech Republic: 5%* Denmark: 11% Euskal Herria: 6% Finland: 8% France: 2%* Italian Confederation: 2%* Norway: 10% Poland: 3% Portugal: 5% Spain: 4% Sweden: 6% Switzerland: 1%* Tír na nÓg: 2%* United Kingdom: 3%* United Netherlands: 2%* * = rarest metatype in country European population averages (calculated from SoE data) Human: 67.29% Elf: 10.35% Ork: 9.18% Dwarf: 7.24% Troll: 4.71% Other: 1.29% |
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Nov 17 2005, 02:46 PM
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#41
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Tilting at Windmills Group: Members Posts: 1,636 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Amarillo, TX, CAS Member No.: 388 |
Someone asked after this the other day, so I thought I'd see what I could do for them. All the heights indicated are rounded to the nearest centimeter. I'll come up with the weight ranges later, after I'm home from work.
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