 Dude, armor sucks. |
 Mar 26 2006, 04:02 PM
Post
#1
|
|
|
Dragon  Group: Members Posts: 4,589 Joined: 28-November 05 Member No.: 8,019  |
Even if it does work, it'll only give you stun damage, which is just as bad, if not worse, than actual physical damage. Would a houserule saying that it does 1/2 stun damage if it stops the bullet work well?
|
 |
 
|
 |
Replies
(25 - 49)
|
Mar 27 2006, 05:42 AM
Post
#26
|
|
|
Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,073 Joined: 23-August 04 Member No.: 6,587 |
The problem with diverting damage to the stun track is that the stun track is usually shorter. If you make a tank build under SR4 all small arms can be made to do subdual damage
Take a troll full borg with 8 points of cyber armour. Body 12 will 2 and 6 points of worn ballistic armour. If being attacked buy weapons with a damage value between 9 and 14 he will last longer if he takes his worn armour off. Although he will on average soak 2 less boxes of damage a hit he has 5 more boxes on his physical track Edward |
|
|
|
|
Mar 27 2006, 11:16 AM
Post
#27
|
|
|
Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,925 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 948 |
Well, if armour is statistically good or bad is for me quite irrelevant. As an individual with the option of getting my spleen shot out of my body by a .50 magnum or a fist sized bruise and a few cracked ribs on my chest the choice is easy.
Armour is there to make sure that you don’t DIE. Yes, you might pass out from the pain but you will always feel pain when you get shot. I do believe that you will raise more eyebrows running around in a pair of speedos in a firefight than a bulletproof vest. |
|
|
|
|
Mar 27 2006, 11:31 AM
Post
#28
|
|||
|
Target Group: Members Posts: 63 Joined: 21-October 04 Member No.: 6,778 |
QFT. Also remember that stun damage heals up a lot faster than physical. Plus, there are easy ways to stay awake even after taking a lot of stun damage. |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Mar 27 2006, 02:55 PM
Post
#29
|
|||
|
Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
hyzmarca took all the joy out of this, but I guess it still needs to be said. I'll even ignore the "heavy weapons" bit. When is the last time you have seen a boxer knocked unconscious by a few jabs to the body (that is to say, not to the head)? Other than inducing shock through pain, which is very unlikely if the target is healthy, what mechanism would you suggest would render an adult human unconscious when his torso is bruised? Stopping the heart or injuring the spine would be theoretically possible, but either would constitute "Physical" damage and are out of the question. What I'm getting at is that it is not at all realistic that bullet impacts defeated by body armor reliably cause a lasting state of unconsciousness similar to what might be caused by a blow to the head. There's a certain internal game logic there -- all kinds of blunt trauma cause Stun overflow unconsciousness in SR -- but it this is not the same as real life logic. |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Mar 27 2006, 03:48 PM
Post
#30
|
|||
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 914 Joined: 26-August 05 From: Louisville, KY (Well, Memphis, IN technically but you won't know where that is.) Member No.: 7,626 |
1) people who get shot in existing body armor by a handgun are generally uninjured. 2) Newton's laws of physics and human physiology say that future handguns may get smaller, more accurate, or have more ammo but they won't include much more kinetic energy. In SR, people who carry handguns should expect to make called shots when facing anyone tougher than a ganger to bypass armor. Shooting SWAT or security in full body armor with pistols *should* be an effort in futility. An SMG at least has the possibility of bludgeoning them into submission with automatic fire. |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Mar 27 2006, 04:03 PM
Post
#31
|
|||
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 327 Joined: 28-January 06 Member No.: 8,209 |
Severe blows to the torso can compress the diaphragm, put the heart into arrhythmia, compress the lungs, crack ribs, and bruise muscles; all of these affect respiration or circulation, which can decrease oxygen to the brain and put you into shock or even cardiac arrest. All of those will certainly put you under in severe cases; and most people won't be put under by stun from one bullet, but 3-4 if they're wearing armor. It's also worth noting your example about boxers is partially false. A boxing glove diffuses and pads the impact, just like a vest will; but the bullet is moving MUCH faster, hits a smaller area, and decelerates faster, all of which increase the force you feel. I'm not 100% certain, but I believe it hits with a rather greater force than a fist, even accounting for the low weight. |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Mar 27 2006, 04:04 PM
Post
#32
|
|||
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 327 Joined: 28-January 06 Member No.: 8,209 |
Generally not SERIOUSLY injured. They almost invariably are left with bruises and sore spots, if not cracked ribs. Not immediately life-threatening, but certainly not pleasant. |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Mar 27 2006, 04:26 PM
Post
#33
|
|
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 914 Joined: 26-August 05 From: Louisville, KY (Well, Memphis, IN technically but you won't know where that is.) Member No.: 7,626 |
Cracked ribs are pretty much unheard of from pistol rounds, assuming you aren't discussing the "bear killer" Biggest Finest Guns (.500, .35/70, etc). And a given bruise may or may not qualify as stun damage (e.g. "ow, I hit the table with my shin!" vs. "ow, I hit the airbag with my face!").
|
|
|
|
|
Mar 27 2006, 04:35 PM
Post
#34
|
|
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 371 Joined: 10-January 06 From: Regina Member No.: 8,145 |
You could always fix it by not having someone fall automatically unconscious when their Stun damage fills up. Have them make a Body + Will roll with a Threshold of their total Damage modifiers (Stun and Physical). If they succeed, then further Stun overflows into Physical, but they can keep on truckin'. They have to make a new roll every time they take new damage.
This would certainly allow the Troll-tanks to walk about in heavy armour, shedding bullets like water, as I think they are supposed to. The randomness of the roll would account for things like lucky shots knocking their wind out to the point that they pass out, or head/spine trauma inducing unconsciousness. |
|
|
|
|
Mar 27 2006, 04:42 PM
Post
#35
|
|||
|
panda! Group: Members Posts: 10,331 Joined: 8-March 02 From: north of central europe Member No.: 2,242 |
a boxer is maybe a bad example as he is trained to handle said blows, but i see where your going with it. im no MD so i cant say what blunt damage can be done to a body to render it unconcious without lasting harm (that term is very nebulous btw, as you can get some very nice long term damage from blunt trauma). so maybe SR should go the way of their NPCs? one track of damage? hmm, where did i put that cp2020 book... |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Mar 27 2006, 05:10 PM
Post
#36
|
|
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 135 Joined: 27-February 06 Member No.: 8,313 |
Stun damage doesn't always represent concussive trauma. It indicates "bruising, muscle fatigue and the like". Being beaten about the head may make you black out, but taking enough bruises to the rib cage will leave you on the floor gaspign for breath, and just as effectively out of the fight.
One thing that I'm realizing does bug me about the armor system, though, is that you'll actually knock a PC down faster at high levels of armor than at medium ones, because most or all of the damage goes onto the stun track rather than the physical. When your AV is greater than the DV of all attacks, you'll be put out of the fight twice as fast as when AV is only greater than the DV of half of the incoming attacks. I'm just going to allow players to elect to take physical damage rather than stun if they so desire, and thus extend the time that highly-armored folks stay upright. If am justification is needed, it can be seen as just ignoring your body's messages, and going on despite the pain, sustaining less trivial injuries in the process. |
|
|
|
|
Mar 27 2006, 05:13 PM
Post
#37
|
|
|
Target Group: Members Posts: 58 Joined: 4-September 03 Member No.: 5,581 |
My boxing coach was pro for 27 years, during which time he would spar with Lennox Lewis, among others. He beat the New York state champ back when he was still pro at the stadium in Buffalo. The man was 190lbs at fighting trim when he was in his early-mid 20s.
This man can't drop me with a body shot unless he hits me in the solar plexus when I'm not ready, and I'm neither talented nor physically fit enough to get in the ring against amateurs yet. There are 140lb women who get lifted off the ground every time he hits, and they take it with a smile. I think armor should help diffuse the blow more, even if knockdown became mandatory. :P -- As far as the armor rules go, the stun track /is/ smaller, but we did some math a few months ago somewhere on the boards. It turned out that there's a certain point of balance for Trolls where the benefit of having a metric asston of armor outweighs the statistical disadvantage of having a smaller stun track. It's somewhere in the realm of 30-35 soak dice. |
|
|
|
|
Mar 27 2006, 05:15 PM
Post
#38
|
|
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 371 Joined: 10-January 06 From: Regina Member No.: 8,145 |
There should still be a mechanic to allow someone to "stay awake" after their Stun track fills up. Shouldn't there?
|
|
|
|
|
Mar 27 2006, 05:23 PM
Post
#39
|
|||
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 135 Joined: 27-February 06 Member No.: 8,313 |
Okay, well, rather than suggest to my Troll that he build a 30+ soak pool (*shudder*), I'm going to let him take some shots as physical if he wants. |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Mar 27 2006, 05:28 PM
Post
#40
|
|||||
|
Target Group: Members Posts: 58 Joined: 4-September 03 Member No.: 5,581 |
My toll has a body of 7 and can still make 26 soak without cyberware, adept powers. or equipment not available at chargen. :P |
||||
|
|
|
||||
|
Mar 27 2006, 05:29 PM
Post
#41
|
|||
|
Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,150 Joined: 19-December 05 From: Rhein-Ruhr Megaplex Member No.: 8,081 |
Pain Editor? Not available at chargen, but well worth it ;). |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Mar 27 2006, 05:30 PM
Post
#42
|
|||||||||||
|
Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
I already mentioned the precordial thump (which would be a great example of lethal blunt trauma when done wrong, or indeed right in this case) and bruising is a horribly inefficient method of disabling circulation, so you're really left with temporarily disabling the respiratory system. I assume this could be achieved if you managed to cause extensive but not critical damage to the diaphragm, but I have never heard of that happening, certainly not when talking about blunt trauma from bullets stopped by body armor. Rather I'd expect something like that might happen if you got severely beaten in the chest and the sides with clubs -- the firearms equivalent would be wearing level III-A body armor and getting repeated point blank hits from 12Gs firing 00 buck.
Look at an MMA event that doesn't use gloves, then. The bullet is far more energetic, causing a sharper impact that is much more likely to cause minor bruises, but the jab has far more momentum and more likely to have a profound effect deeper into the tissue. I wouldn't know which is better at knocking a person unconscious since I have never heard of either managing it.
Not life-threatening, period. No fatalities from projectiles that the body armor they were stopped by was rated against and all that.
Yeah, this ties in nicely with the good old "why do maces do Stun damage" issue. I'm not opposed to the idea of a Stun track, but at the very least we should acknowledge that categorizing all blunt trauma as Stun/non-lethal is not very logical.
The problem is, getting your Stun track filled means you will be completely incapable of taking any action at all for at least around 15 minutes, more likely 60 minutes, unless you get medical attention. And hell, the average SR character can take a decent shot from a shotgun at point blank range while unarmored and not be left gasping for his breath and out of the fight for any more than a Simple Action or whatever it takes to get up after being Knocked Down, which to me implies that the Stun track filling up simulates a condition far more serious than bruises on your chest. This post has been edited by Austere Emancipator: Mar 27 2006, 05:37 PM |
||||||||||
|
|
|
||||||||||
|
Mar 27 2006, 05:37 PM
Post
#43
|
|||||
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 327 Joined: 28-January 06 Member No.: 8,209 |
Both internal bleeding and broken/fractured bones can be life-threatening if you're unlucky, and both can be caused by a non-penetrating bullet. I can't speak to "armor and projectiles it's rated for", though. |
||||
|
|
|
||||
|
Mar 27 2006, 05:40 PM
Post
#44
|
|||
|
Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
Got an example of a bullet stopped by body armor causing that kind of damage, then? Regardless of the rating of the armor. |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Mar 27 2006, 05:52 PM
Post
#45
|
|||||
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 135 Joined: 27-February 06 Member No.: 8,313 |
Well, I'm sorry if it causes you some cognitive disconnect, but bruising is exactly one of the things that is indicated by taking stun damage. Presumably, though, "bruises on your chest" is not really the way to protray filling your entire stun track with stun damage. That's more like having your chest be one, big bruise, and probably some light trauma to other parts of your body. By the time that you've taken 9+ levels of stun, you're in enough pain to be effectively inactive. |
||||
|
|
|
||||
|
Mar 27 2006, 05:59 PM
Post
#46
|
|||||
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 327 Joined: 28-January 06 Member No.: 8,209 |
Yes. My brother is an ER doc, and he's told me stories about various gunshot victims. One story I remember in particular was about someone who took a bullet to the right side of a vest; the bullet lodged in the vest, but it cracked a rib and punctured his lung in the process. That's most definitely life-threatening if not treated. I have no idea what he was shot by, though. Why do you seem so upset by the idea? Any major blunt force trauma can cause collatoral damage of that type. |
||||
|
|
|
||||
|
Mar 27 2006, 06:02 PM
Post
#47
|
|
|
panda! Group: Members Posts: 10,331 Joined: 8-March 02 From: north of central europe Member No.: 2,242 |
his problem is that a wound fit under physical damage, not stun damage...
|
|
|
|
|
Mar 27 2006, 06:14 PM
Post
#48
|
|||
|
Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
Oh I have no problem with that. I have a problem with bruises alone causing a healthy adult human to be rendered completely incapable of any action, unless the whole body is one big bruise, at which point the damage to circulation starts to get serious. Your whole chest can easily be black and blue without it being more than a minor injury. Check out some crash survivors: for example, this guy (warning: close-up of naked, bruised male, photo taken 1 week after the injury) climbed right back onto his quad and rode it a long way back to camp. 3 boxes of Stun, maybe? Stuff like this doesn't merit more than 1 box of Stun. |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Mar 27 2006, 06:17 PM
Post
#49
|
|||||
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 327 Joined: 28-January 06 Member No.: 8,209 |
By your definition, then, bullets never do stun damage; they just do reduced amounts of physical damage. If that's how you want to play it, just eliminate the "physical->stun" conversion for firearms, and increase the effectiveness of armor. |
||||
|
|
|
||||
|
Mar 27 2006, 06:18 PM
Post
#50
|
|
|
Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,556 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Seattle Member No.: 98 |
I've been using a combination of rules.
Rather than rolling dice equal to Armor rating to reduce incoming damage, I just have my players subtract half (rounding up) of their armor value from the damage. Any *ballistic* damage that is stepped down from physical to stun by the armor is cut in half just before being applied to the stun track. More than anything else, this combination of rules means that players can take a hit or two without the risk of completely blowing them into tatters with a short burst. I don't mind players getting hurt that much, but I mind (from a gameplay point of view) when the first hit they take, despite being fairly well armored, turns them into dogmeat. |
|
|
|
 |
|
Lo-Fi Version | Time is now: 14th June 2025 - 09:52 PM |
Topps, Inc has sole ownership of the names, logo, artwork, marks, photographs, sounds, audio, video and/or any proprietary material used in connection with the game Shadowrun. Topps, Inc has granted permission to the Dumpshock Forums to use such names, logos, artwork, marks and/or any proprietary materials for promotional and informational purposes on its website but does not endorse, and is not affiliated with the Dumpshock Forums in any official capacity whatsoever.