Dragon challenge, Taking down a dragon, SR4 style |
Dragon challenge, Taking down a dragon, SR4 style |
Jul 20 2007, 04:31 PM
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#276
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Prime Runner Group: Banned Posts: 3,732 Joined: 1-September 05 From: Prague, Czech Republic Member No.: 7,665 |
First of all, no. Taking 18P drain under any circumstances is completely unreasonable. That's the kind of thing that is highly likely to leave you with permanent injuries or bleeding wounds. And it's Drain, so it can't be magically healed. The only thing you can do about it is medicine, and dragons are notoriously hard to affect with that (being, for example, not mammals).
Define "work". A mana lodge is a barrier, yes, but it's not anything particularly special. It's just like having an actual wall set up on the astral plane. It does not actually stop the Ritual Sorcery attack, for example. Of course, a Force 50 mana lodge is one hundred meters across - so unless his lair is the RCA Dome, he'll have to cut back a bit. So yes, in the case of the Ritual Sorcery attack, both the mages and the dragon can be in arbitrarily large mana lodges (assuming that they have the space), which will pretty much guaranty that neither party can do anything meaningful through astral projection. In the case of the diverse team's run through the complex, the barrier seriously has no effect. Even the Staticmancer can simply mundanely walk form one side of the barrier to the other and then teleport the static to a new place he can see on the same side of the barrier as himself. All it does is stop a chain summoning assault - that's where you have 3 magicians and 3 first aid experts and you have each just summon a high force spirit and remote service it to go attempt to possess the dragon. If it fails or dies, the magician (who by now should be healed with the amount of first aid on him) does it again. A large enough barrier will stop that shit cold, but at 1 meter in radius per force point, getting a barrier that big may not fit in your favorite cave. -Frank |
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Jul 20 2007, 04:36 PM
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#277
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,598 Joined: 15-March 03 From: Hong Kong Member No.: 4,253 |
They kept the metaplanar shortcut for bound spirits, didn't they? So your bound spirit can always show up next to you, once you have stepped across the barrier... Of course, this means that anything dual natured is probably not comming trough.
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Jul 20 2007, 04:37 PM
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#278
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Canon Companion Group: Members Posts: 8,021 Joined: 2-March 03 From: The Morgue, Singapore LTG Member No.: 4,187 |
Incorrect.
The more hits, the greater the probability. The rules do not say Divination can provide no HARD FACTS. Rather that the GM should allow leeway for the characters to receive hints and probabilities instead.
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Jul 20 2007, 04:44 PM
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#279
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Canon Companion Group: Members Posts: 8,021 Joined: 2-March 03 From: The Morgue, Singapore LTG Member No.: 4,187 |
So? Let it(or you) to come up with infinity loops in its favor then. The point of any challenge is to find a loophole that makes the challenge a non-challenge. That's what makes it a challenge. And while the dragon has more lifetime, I bet the dragon's player doesn't and given the rapid changes in the 6th world, the rules keep changing every decade or so. So the PCs have 6 times more time to figure out how to do so, because the rules change every decade. And please don't tell us that the PCs are all 9 year old kids. |
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Jul 20 2007, 05:26 PM
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#280
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Horror Group: Members Posts: 5,322 Joined: 15-June 05 From: BumFuck, New Jersey Member No.: 7,445 |
Wow....
You guys have created Shadowrun's answer to Pun-Pun. 50 Force 50 Spirits... I'm pretty sure that's enough to swat even Ghostwalker. Swat him - hell, spank him like a biatch. That many spirits of that Force could probably even stop an entire Horror incursion, assuming the mega-mojo you've got running through your eternally sunlit domain in Alaskan Summer dosen't itself create a mana surge that summons the Horrors. |
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Jul 20 2007, 05:32 PM
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#281
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Prime Runner Group: Banned Posts: 3,732 Joined: 1-September 05 From: Prague, Czech Republic Member No.: 7,665 |
Actually, the "fifty Force 50 spirits" idea didn't work for numerous reasons. And it was in no way as world shattering as The Wish and The Word anyway. -Frank |
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Jul 20 2007, 06:11 PM
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#282
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Shadow Cartographer Group: Members Posts: 3,737 Joined: 2-June 06 From: Secret Tunnels under the UK (South West) Member No.: 8,636 |
I'm surprised that people have interpreted the book this way. The statement under Dracoform is as follows:
To me, that doesn't suggest that I should take the dragon as printed and pile 800BP on top of it. It means only that I should consider the dragon as printed to be a prime runner. The BP and karma scores given in that section are for creating Prime Runners. What the dragon section tells us is that it already is one. The part that is relevant, I think, is the section that describes what each grade of Prime Runner represents. "Superhuman" reads as follows:
This tells you how to handle such powerful individuals and it is obviously appropriate for playing dragons. If you're going to create dragons using the BP percentages given for creating Prime Runners, you're going to have to come up with a BP cost for Race: Dracoform. (I'd imagine it's more than (Troll.") I think it's pretty obvious what is mean by "should be considered as Prime Runners." It just means 'use them in this way, not just as critters.' -K. |
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Jul 20 2007, 07:34 PM
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#283
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Cybernetic Blood Mage Group: Members Posts: 3,472 Joined: 11-March 06 From: Northeastern Wyoming Member No.: 8,361 |
Talia Invierno I think that the Thor Shot idea is still valid although a bit overkill, so yeah, if someone wishes to pursue it I'd build it. (Note, it would be a combination of my and Buster's idea, so you'd have to be able to break into a dedicated LOS comm network before you even had a chance to test the Thor Shot Nodes, but hey, thems the breaks.)
*Edit* However I still stand by my statement that this is a largely pointless thought experiment, but it's been awhile since I've played a message-board game. :cyber: |
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Jul 20 2007, 10:57 PM
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#284
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 530 Joined: 11-June 05 Member No.: 7,441 |
FWIW, where? What I'm reading is sr4.178: "Spirits on remote services no longer count against the limit of summoned spirits."
The spirit of the challenge, as I understood it, was to hit the "I WIN" button against a dragon. That's pretty much the way you described it, so that's the way I took it. If that's not what you really meant, that's fine, but I did stay within your original parameters.
Why?
If it works, and so far nobody's convinced me it doesn't by RAW, it's enough to swat just about anyone, even the practitioners of the practice. It's the magical equivalent of a nuke ;) If it works, and you ever used it, I think the consequence of your using it would be that some great dragon or megacorp would figure it out and then use it on you. For anyone powerful enough to draw the attention of someone who might use this trick, this is a technique that is much too powerful to for anyone to know. It would probably lead to a magical holocaust. EDIT: Other thought, even though this is probably not the place to discuss it: Considering the obvious potential abuses of having a spirit summoned stick around for 85 days without binding, you'd think that there'd be a land rush to control the places of the earth where that can happen. |
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Jul 20 2007, 11:13 PM
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#285
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 472 Joined: 14-June 07 Member No.: 11,909 |
As per the fourth printing of the SR 4 rulebook, or in this case, SR 4 Errata v. 1.5, spirits on remote service still count against the summoned limit until their remote service is completed.
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Jul 20 2007, 11:13 PM
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#286
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Prime Runner Group: Banned Posts: 3,732 Joined: 1-September 05 From: Prague, Czech Republic Member No.: 7,665 |
In the later printing of that book, or the errata for that very section:
You can thank me and Peter for that, btw. I pushed it through, he signed off on it. ;) Now if only I can get a similar piece done up for Blood Spirits, we can have all the infinite power loops taken care of. --- But yes, there is quite a bit of magical throw-down at both poles. That's why the Aleut are a major player despite their population and lack of arable land. -Frank |
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Jul 20 2007, 11:30 PM
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#287
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 530 Joined: 11-June 05 Member No.: 7,441 |
The infinite loop still exists, it's just not self-contained within one character anymore.
1. Get a group of X folks together. Each can summon C spirits. 2. Each summons the biggest task spirit s/he can safely summon (let's call it force Y) and still be statistically likely to have X*Y first aid teamwork dice heal them. 3. Repeat until you have a full stable of X*C task spirits summoned. Total dice is now X*C*Y 4. One of the folks in the group does the loop until X*C*Y team work'd first aid dice is unsafe. 5. Then each other character does it in turn... (remembering that C increases with the force of the spirit channelled...) 6. Repeat ad nauseum. |
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Jul 20 2007, 11:32 PM
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#288
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 615 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,895 |
Agree 18p is going to leave blood ... Though something you do once every thousand years, could very well be worth it. It isnt going to kill the dragon, if I was 'playing' a dragon my character would gladly do it in a heart beat. What kind of permenant injuries and please show the rules for that? (bleeding wounds almsot certainly) Agree with drain can't be healed magically. Where are dragons hard to affect with medicine? Yeah mean to tell me something that is smarter then any human CAN be, that has lived for thousands of years, hasnt figure out medicine equal to ours ... pretty sure they can tell a friend / spirit / buddy (or do it themselves if they want to eat the penalties) and treat them ... and by cannon nothing limits first aid from working on them same as a troll or a human or a pigmy mutant vorpal bunny
I read that to mean unless the ritual team inside the mana lodge / barrier they are casting through it... the spell has to pass through the barrier, the dragon gets the barrier rating added. Had missed the 'size' of a mana lodge (since I was mostly reading pager 167-8 (magical lodges) I missed the reference to size under wards... Agree force 50 might be a little out of it.... Even for a dragon lair under a mountain. Though considering 'non-magic' can walk right through a mana barrier, dont see why that 50M radius isnt projecting into the mountain side. (if ruling 'earth' is living and thus couldnt.. 'process' the stone with shape element to reinforce his lair make it what he wants, and thus is not processed earth same was if corp X dug it out and filled with concrete. Either way, the dragon is going to have signifcant wards around his lair either permenant 'wards' or make the whole place his lodge (hey no karma only money and time MUCH better choice). Though then once gain would have to point out the force 20 dragon slaying ritual casting... That would need a force 20 lodge, so this team of Dragon killer mages someplace has a lodge 20M radisu which is still a pretty big location.... |
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Jul 20 2007, 11:40 PM
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#289
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Prime Runner Group: Banned Posts: 3,732 Joined: 1-September 05 From: Prague, Czech Republic Member No.: 7,665 |
That's not an infinite loop though. It's a bounded loop, where the upper bound is "the biggest spirit you could summon anyway" - which means that in terms of "how big of a hammer can you throw at the problem?" the loop adds nothing at all.
All you get is the ability to call up a very large spirit to fill out your one allowed summoned spirit quota so long as the other team members are spending their time healing the inevitable physical drain you'll take instead of doing something productive. Whether the character on medic duty is a hacker who goes back to hacking when the situation is resolved or a mage who does his own summoning when the situation is resolved doesn't actually matter. In fact, what you're suggesting is substantially inferior in every way to simply "skipping to the end" and making the biggest thing that won't outright kill you as your first thing. --- So no. You don't have an expanding unbounded loop. You'll never make a Force 50 spirit that way. Not just because you personally don't have a Magic of 25 and thus can't even attempt such an action, but because there's no reason to believe that you would survive the average of 33.3P drain that such a summoning would entail. You'd simply overcast yourself into overflow and instantly die - the summoning would fail, and the cheese stands alone. There isn't a single part of your proposal which actually works the way you think it does. Not the least because "C" in your example is actually just the number one in all cases. -Frank |
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Jul 20 2007, 11:43 PM
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#290
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 472 Joined: 14-June 07 Member No.: 11,909 |
What do you mean with 'C spirits'? |
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Jul 21 2007, 12:16 AM
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#291
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Midnight Toker Group: Members Posts: 7,686 Joined: 4-July 04 From: Zombie Drop Bear Santa's Workshop Member No.: 6,456 |
C is a variable indicating the number of spirits a character can summon. However, since this varies from character to character it should really be Cn (pronounced "See Sub-IN") where each n represents one of the x characters. |
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Jul 21 2007, 12:35 AM
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#292
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 530 Joined: 11-June 05 Member No.: 7,441 |
Ah hah, you are correct. I was confusing spirits summoned with spirits bound. Okay, the maximum force spirit you can deterministically safely summon AND BIND with channeling is 14. Assuming a troll who casts Increase Body: Maximum body attribute at each channeled force is going to be: B=1.5*(10+F)=15+1.5F Maximum amount of damage before you die is going to be: Dmax=8 + 1/2 B + B - 1 Substitute B in: Dmax=8+1/2*(15+1.5F) + (15+1.5F) - 1 = 8 + 7.5 + 0.75F + 15 + 1.5F -1 =28.5+2.25F The most damage the next level up can do to you on binding is SDmax=4*(F+1) Set SDmax=Dmax, solve. 4*(F+1)=28.5+2.25F 4F+4=28.5+2.25F 1.75F=24.5 F=14 Make sense? If so, it ain't infinite, but it's still a bigger hammer than what you can safely bind otherwise (force 7, I think). And realistically, if you take probability into account, you can go higher than 14... I just haven't calculated that yet. Probably not much higher because of the way the variance will probably explode on the drain, but still, a little higher. |
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Jul 21 2007, 12:42 AM
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#293
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,246 Joined: 8-June 07 Member No.: 11,869 |
<head explodes>
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Jul 21 2007, 01:12 AM
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#294
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Prime Runner Group: Banned Posts: 3,732 Joined: 1-September 05 From: Prague, Czech Republic Member No.: 7,665 |
Not really. While the math holds up, there are two glaring holes in this analysis.
I'm not saying that you can't chanel crawl yourself up to some Force 10 bound spirits and beat the living crap out of whatever bound spirits the opposition might have - I'm saying that your Force 14 idea is overly optimistic. -Frank |
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Jul 21 2007, 01:38 AM
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#295
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 615 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,895 |
One problem:
The second quote makes it VERY clear that Edge Dice are the extra dice rolled equal to your edge, NOT all dice that are part of the test (which do become subject to the rule of 6). Therefore the maximum net hits on your uber ritual casting is 22 (statistical) thought the cap may be theoritcallyuncapped. It is: Capped at 20 (all dice save edge) + edge dice. Dont see edge listed on your sample but I will be regenerous and go with seven. Seven dice most likely would get 2.333 hits. We will call it 3. 1.5 of those three would be 6s we will call it 2. Thos two re-rolled will get .666 hits, we will call it one more hit. So probablity of 4 hits with edge dice. For 24 hits on your spell casting test. Considering you have managed to erract a force 20 magical lodge somehow (and it cost money and time no karma) then I would presume the dragon has done the same). Consiering extensive spirit use since they are smart by the players, lets play equal. The dragon being just as smart is VERY likely to say have 6-8 bound spirits (he has money, doesnt have karma to spend, so spirits are one of the best way to get magic help). unlike the mages who are preparing for one thing our dragon cant totally focus on one thing, but combat spells are clearly one of the largest dangers to the dragon. So say half his potential spirits are 'combat' spirits (whatever his tradition). Being the cautious type he only summoned them at his magic rating (so only stun drain). Given 'high end' non-great dragon, we will go average and say magic 9 so force 9 spirits. Feeling (heck SEEING) a force 20 spell coming in the dragon aint taken chance, all 4 of the Aid Sorcery (in his lair KNOWING he is going to be attacked, the spirits (all of them) are of course 'called' and not on standby in the metaplanes). This gives him an additional 36 dice (4*9) on his counterspelling. So we are now at: Willpower ( 8 ) + Counterspelling ( 8 ) + Edge ( 6 ) + mana barrier (lodge) ( 20 ) + Spirit dice ( 36 ) for a total of: 78 dice. For an average of 26 hits. Half of which would be 6s for 13 more dice and 4 more hits (2 of which would be 6s but dont get hits) for a total of 30 hits on counterspelling Nada happens save one dragon is seriously intersted in sending the remaining spirits (up to 4) at force 9 to teach you a lesson / cause problems. You left one huge astral signature for alot of people to investigate. A while a dragons lair I dont have a problem with being 40M diameter, did you pay for lifestyle that includes someplace you can set up a 40m diameter lodge to cas this ritual from? (or have you been muttering to yourself for 20 days in a park some place setting up and not gotten run off). (edite: to keep number from changing to emoticons) |
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Jul 21 2007, 02:34 AM
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#296
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,677 Joined: 5-June 03 Member No.: 4,689 |
Okay -- I burst out laughing when I read that. This might help for future calculations: So that luck won't be a factor in the outcome, I'm going to use the 1:3 ratio for hits, always rounding up (ie. if you have only one or two dice in the pool, you'd still get one hit). That will give you utterly predictable results in every case. Do we need this ruling in the opening post? |
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Jul 21 2007, 02:42 AM
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#297
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Horror Group: Members Posts: 5,322 Joined: 15-June 05 From: BumFuck, New Jersey Member No.: 7,445 |
Now here's a question.
12 million nuyen is a whole lot of money. You can hire some pretty beefy things with that kind of nuyen. What if you hired another dragon (one who already has a beef with the dragon you're going after) to participate in your Alaskan Cheese Cycle of Mana? Let him be the one who's taking the drain, since he has vastly superior stats to begin with. That said, I still think it would be simpler to just use the nuyen and the karma to create a cheesed-out Hacker/Technomancer who can hack into a Thor Shot sattelite and drop the orbital option. |
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Jul 21 2007, 02:49 AM
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#298
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,664 Joined: 21-September 04 From: Arvada, CO Member No.: 6,686 |
Laughingowl:
You're right, and I forgot my guy's edge was 7's not 6's. So, to redo this: Why does he go for the magic 11? Well, because, the test for ritual sorcery is 12hrs - Leaders magic. Minimum of one hour. 12 - 11 = 1 hour. The test to detect it is 20-force beginning one hour after the ritual starts. So, the ritual starts, one spirit is guarding the whole team. Still force 20 slay (dragon). All the other 11 spirits are aiding sorcery. (I couldn't find anywhere that said only 1 spirit may aid sorcery per spell). So, polls for sorcery members are as follows: -6 sympathetic + Magic + Ritual Spellcasting + Mentor Spirit + Spellcasting Focus + Spirit 1 + Spirit 2 (One man doesn't get spirit 2, as his is busy guarding). -6 + 10 + 9 + 2 + 10 + 6 + 6 = 37 -6 + 10 + 9 + 2 + 10 + 6 = 31 They use edge to reroll failures, 4 of them average 13 hits, with 24 rerolled, for another 8. 21 hits for them. Last guy gets 10 hits, reroll of 21 dice, gets 7 more, total 17 for him 21 * 4 + 17 = 101 for their casting. Leader goes, he gets the same kind of pool. With 11 magic and no spellcasting focus. Plus edge for exploding 6's, and removing the force limiter on his edge dice alone. -6 + 11 + 9 + 2 + 6 + 6 + 7= 34 + 101 = 135 dice. Average of 45 hits. 22 of which explode for another 7. Total of 52 hits. His 7 edge dice average to 2 hits, with it unlikely to get another on exploding. This is a good time to ask WHEN force limits successes on spellcasting. Since it is an opposed test, does it limit it before or after opposition. If AFTER, then with 52 hits total, unless the dragon can get 52 counterspelling hits, it'll go through with the remainder. If BEFORE then its limitted to 22 (on average) hits. This means the dragon only needs 22 hits on a counterspelling test. It resolves in one hour, which is when the dragon would get a check to know it was coming. So, until this point, the dragon has no idea that major magic mojo is on its way to him. When he gets the chance to check, he gets hit by it. Now, Dragon gets basic willpower (and counterspelling if its so paranoid to constantly be counterspelling itself) (plus edge, if we feel like being nice) for a 24 dice pool. Average 8 hits. 4 explode for 1 more. 9 hits total. 9 is not > 52 NOR is it bigger than 22. Therefore dragon takes 20 + 43 (Or 13)P for a net hit of 63P (Or 33P). He doesn't get the chance to see or know the spell is coming in any way shape or form. (It resolves in 1 hour, and at 1 hour is when you get a check to notice ritual magic.) I doubt he'd have his spirits aiding sorcery for him, but we'll assume he is (at the cost of a service every sunrise/sunset.) So, assuming he's doing it, you get 8 will + 8 counterspelling + 8 edge + 20 lodge + 36 aid sorcery = 80 dice. Average of 26 hits. 13 reroll for 4 more hits. Total of 30 hits counterspelling. Again, back to when are the hits capped. Before, or after the test? If, BEFORE, then 22 hits. vs 30. Spell is countered. If, AFTER, 52 hits, vs 30. Spell comes through with 22 net hits. Dragon takes 42P. Sure, each character has spent a grand total of 5,500Â¥. Leaving them with 9,994,500Â¥ remaining. x6 that gives you 59,967,000Â¥. They can buy 5 permanent luxury lifestyles that way. Or, alternately, buy 9 permanent High life styles each. Again, I will call attention to the fact that the spell RESOLVES in 1 hour. The test to notice ritual magic occurs at 1 hour. Therefore, when the dragon gets to test to notice it, it hits. Theres also nothing that prevents them from targetting the dragon's lodge with a manabolt as well. Oh, and to your point about the dragon sending his force 9 spirits back at me. Well, they bounce off my force 20 lodge just as well. |
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Jul 21 2007, 03:02 AM
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#299
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 530 Joined: 11-June 05 Member No.: 7,441 |
If at first you don't succeed, try, try again. The channeled spirit is bound, and it ain't going anywhere as long as you don't do something that would trigger a service, right? (FWIW, for this exercise, I am not assuming a 24 hour limit) (In fact, with the appropriate combination of sorcery skill, aid sorcery, and foci, it's not even improbable.)
Why can't you bind the spirit from one side of a powerful ward? I mean, isn't that SOP around here for most folks? |
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Jul 21 2007, 03:16 AM
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#300
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Horror Group: Members Posts: 5,322 Joined: 15-June 05 From: BumFuck, New Jersey Member No.: 7,445 |
Don't forget that the 12,000,00 :nuyen: figure is the resources, not the reward.
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