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Da9iel
post Jul 25 2007, 06:57 AM
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QUOTE (Talia Invierno Posted on Jul 24 2007 @ 09:41 PM)
So what happens when the machine plays itself?

Maybe this?
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Crusher Bob
post Jul 25 2007, 07:13 AM
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QUOTE (Talia Invierno)
Read about that. For now, all it proves is that within what we currently can analyse, there exists a possible guaranteed win in checkers. So what happens when the machine plays itself?

The outcome depends on the 'math-space' of the game. For example, the side that moves first might be at an advantage, so in fully mapped play will alway win. In other games, there is not an advantage to either side, which means that fully mapped play always results in a draw (for example, tic-tac-toe). A human chess play can still possibly beat the computer because chess has not yet been fully mapped. However, enough of the solution space of chess has been mapped to make a computer very good at playing it.

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Vaevictis
post Jul 25 2007, 08:22 AM
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QUOTE (Talia Invierno)
Read about that.  For now, all it proves is that within what we currently can analyse, there exists a possible guaranteed win in checkers.  So what happens when the machine plays itself?


It depends on the game, but in the case of checkers, my understanding is that two perfect players produce a draw. (Which is the only only outcome where a perfect player can't be beat.)

QUOTE (Talia Invierno)
In any case though: is the human element completely and in all respects reduceable to algorithm?  (Which btw would also negate free will: since perfect reduction to algorithm would also mean complete predictability.)


The answer to your question is: We don't know. That's an outstanding question.

Also, if it were to reduce to an algorithm, it wouldn't necessarily imply that free will doesn't exist; that would only be the case if it reduced to a deterministic algorithm.
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Jaid
post Jul 25 2007, 06:39 PM
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QUOTE (Da9iel)
QUOTE (Talia Invierno Posted on Jul 24 2007 @ 09:41 PM)
So what happens when the machine plays itself?

Maybe this?

man, i thought for sure that was gonna be a link to the supercomputer what controls the nuclear arsenal playing tic-tac-toe against itself and deciding there couldn't be any winner, then doing the same with "global thermonuclear warfare".

how could you let me down like that? =P
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Magus
post Jul 26 2007, 03:59 AM
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Ok here is the team: 6 Super Elven Face Adepts Initiate Level 4 max magic and max kinsethics. We call up Chuck Norris (who as we all know is immortal) convince him that we want 100 super gym thingies and we want him to come and install them. As he is install them we convince him that if he kills the dragon we will buy 300 more and sponsor his next Infomercial. He agrees. Chuck walks into the lair and kills the wrym. I mean really a dragon vs. Chuck. Chuck wins!

Team Wins! yah!
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Particle_Beam
post Aug 5 2007, 12:43 AM
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So, I was wondering, how does Talia Invierno's Mr. Magoo-like dragon defend against all those teams specifically?

Or was it just a hoax, and Talia Invierno didn't prepare it at all?

What's the conclusion?
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Ravor
post Aug 5 2007, 01:15 AM
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Although I wasn't planning on raising the thread, lately I have been wondering whether or not the dragon survived the actual PM playthrough Tarantula proposed or even if Tarantula's offer was taken up on.
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Tarantula
post Aug 5 2007, 02:34 AM
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Talia did PM me, we discussed some things I'd overlooked, and ran through the playthroughs. Talia and I disagree on a few rules interpretations. To quote Talia:
QUOTE (Talia Invierno)
You'll notice I let the dragon thread lapse, even before. Bluntly, I hadn't intended it as a push-the-I-WIN-button exercise. Until this became the only approach in the thread, I hadn't even considered that this could be a dominant approach in a roleplaying game. I sent you the PM mostly because I believed you had a fair point: in that you had no way of knowing what had been overlooked.

What I have no intention of doing here is to discuss rules interpretations. Honestly, I'm just not that interested. If there's a rules question that you're willing to test against Dumpshock interpretation, you'll start a thread about it. If you're determined to believe your interpretation is the only possible right one, I'm not going to stop you.


The runthrough looked like this at the end by me:
Ritual group
[ Spoiler ]


Dragon
[ Spoiler ]


As far as drain goes, all members of the group take (F/2)-2 P. Meaning, base 8P, and so they don't die.
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Jaid
post Aug 5 2007, 02:55 AM
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actually, the spell's hits, *not* net hits, are capped by the spell's force. so your leader has to spend his point of edge before, not after, to uncap his hits for the spell. on the plus side, that also gives him exploding dice...
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Particle_Beam
post Aug 5 2007, 03:09 AM
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So, does that mean that Talia Inverno's sole defense outline relied on three plant spirits bound at force 24 (which would have killed the dragon several times just because of the binding drain damage) and two combat spirits, all bound at force 12? That's it?

And does anybody realise what it means to have force 24 spirits? These things are stronger and better than every Great Dragon. Are we really going to believe that a wimpy normal dragon is going to bind several uber-force spirits without punishment? These uber-spirits have more dice to resist being bound than even a Greater Dragon by the book could come up with. They roll 48 dices just to deny whatever being wishes to enslave them on earth. That's more than every Magic+Conjuring-dice pool could ever be. There's no way to get more dice than those super-uber-spirits to get at least one bound service.

That's just innane.
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Tarantula
post Aug 5 2007, 03:30 AM
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No, Talia said 3 plant spirits at the highest force (yes, with physical drain) the dragon could summon. He never specified the dragons magic, so I went with the max. Nothing says you can't do a group conjuring test. So, as long as the dragon had some other dragons of the same tradition, he could've gotten his spirits summoned.

Jaid: The order of the spellcasting rules says the test for spellcasting is step 3. Then in step 5, the test if it is opposed is done, with the caster needing 1 net hit to succeed. Then it says the hits are limited by force.

This is an oversight of the rules, and is one of the debates Talia didn't wish to get into.
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Particle_Beam
post Aug 5 2007, 03:54 AM
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The Teamwork rules say that the dice bonus that the primary character can receive from his teammates is equal to his skill.

Ritual Spellcasting may perhaps be exerpt from this rule (though I really doubt it, seeing as Ritual Spellcasting is nothing more than Spellcasting with the teamwork rules and other minor details), but you sure can't get enough dices with Conjuring, no matter how many pals are helping you.

Heck, it takes 24 hours to bind the spirit. He'll be long gone by the next sunrise or sunset before the binding ritual even ends.
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Tarantula
post Aug 5 2007, 06:34 AM
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I don't see anything that says the max is equal to the primary characters skill. Quote please?
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Talia Invierno
post Aug 5 2007, 10:09 AM
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I should more accurately have said "the highest force the dragon can conjure and bind" -- but, yes, accepting the likelihood of physical damage but not unconsciousness. Once bound and set to a task, spirits can stay on call indefinitely. As you have identified, ritual magic is one of the dragon's major points of vulnerability. The dragon knew it too, so it makes sense that the dragon would be willing to risk much to make its home as safe as possible against that key point of vulnerability. Obviously the spirits were not all summoned and bound within the past 24 hours, any more than your magicians had developed their group and their abilities and conjured and bound all their own spirits within the past 24 hours. I'd assume they were conjured staggered, leaving just enough time in between to recover.

I counted the number of required plant spirits (ongoing service: Magical Guard) against what would be needed against an unknown generic group of magicians, given the usual outlines of magic groups in the books. (Tarantula has my reasoning there.) When I "froze" the dragon, I had made those calculations thinking that the lodge would help defend against ritual magic. If it doesn't -- did anyone ask the game designers? -- then my calculations were off, but the basic structure to fend off the initial assault should still suffice if you add a plant spirit or two.

This is the only part of the defence that was relevant to the question Tarantula was asking, so that's the only one I mentioned. Doesn't mean it's the only one that exists, or indeed that those are the only ongoing services of the spirits you do now know about. There are other points of vulnerability, after all.
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Particle_Beam
post Aug 5 2007, 02:27 PM
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QUOTE (Tarantula)
I don't see anything that says the max is equal to the primary characters skill.  Quote please?

QUOTE (Basic Rulebook; corrected fourth printing@ page 59: Teamwork Tests)
The maximum dice bonus the primary character can receive from teamwork is equal to that character's skill.
That should put an end to many uber-teamwork dice pools.
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Tarantula
post Aug 5 2007, 07:44 PM
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Thanks. The problem I see is that ritual magic references teamwork tests, but restates it.
QUOTE (SR4 @ 175)
When casting begins, the dice pool is equal to the leader’s Magic + Ritual Spellcasting. Each additional member of the team makes a Magic + Ritual Spellcasting test as if they were casting the spell; their net hits are added as dice pool bonus to the leader’s Ritual Spellcasting dice pool (see Teamwork Tests, p. 59).

This leaves it ambiguous as to if ritual casting is exempt from the limitation or not. If it had the limitation, shouldn't the ritual section be errataed to state it as well?
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Particle_Beam
post Aug 5 2007, 10:54 PM
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As I said, Ritual spellcasting may perhaps be an exception of the normal teamwork test, but even if you should allow teamwork to work for conjuring, then at least the conjuring test will be limited for sure.

There is no way to bind force 24 spirits.
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Draconis
post Aug 12 2007, 08:47 AM
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QUOTE (FrankTrollman)
Indeed, the challenge would be structurally identical if it was "there's a corp guy who has thrown down seven figures into his defenses - take him down!"

The fact that there's a dragon on the other end is completely irrelevent - seriously it could just be a guy in a car or even a guy in a wheelchair and it wouldn't matter.

-Frank

Or a brain in a jar!

Leave the damn dragons alone.
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Tarantula
post Aug 13 2007, 12:44 AM
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Actually, brains in a jar can be quite hard to kill if that jar happens to be plugged into a navy submarine.

Though, ritual magic solves that quite nicely. :)
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Draconis
post Aug 13 2007, 12:57 AM
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QUOTE (Tarantula)
Actually, brains in a jar can be quite hard to kill if that jar happens to be plugged into a navy submarine.

Though, ritual magic solves that quite nicely. :)

What would you use as a link? Symbolic? Good luck.
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Tarantula
post Aug 13 2007, 01:06 AM
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Yes, symbolic. Whats so hard about that? Material could work too, seeing as how theres a whole body thats linked to it out there someplace (if it was recently made anyhow).
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Draconis
post Aug 13 2007, 06:01 AM
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QUOTE (Tarantula)
Yes, symbolic. Whats so hard about that? Material could work too, seeing as how theres a whole body thats linked to it out there someplace (if it was recently made anyhow).

One would think it would be immedately cremated as you don't exactly need the body anymore. Heh now i'm having flashbacks of Krang from TMNT.
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tisoz
post Aug 13 2007, 08:03 AM
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My $.02:
If this is ever going to actually happen and be fair, have one team run the shadowrunner team and another team run the dragon with a GM playing referee. Have the 2 parties meet on neutral ground, with their normal preparations and defenses.
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