Best 1 essence worth of cyber for a mage Options

[KCKitsune]

Pretty sure Kyoto was talking to Feshy that time, Kitsune. Anyway, I am a big fan of the sleep regulator and reflex boosters, I generally ignore all cyber for mages beyond that and stick to the more expensive but more essense friendly bioware.

Chris

Cyber eyes are great for helping with targeting the corp security goons bad guys.

As for Kyoto, I figured it out, but still wanted everyone to know that I acknowledge the fact I was wrong... though I do have another idea, but won't put it here until I get an answer. If I think it works this way then I've got a new piece of 'ware for the "Gotta squeeze this in the 1.0 Essence I'm using" list

[Moon-Hawk]

Question: If a person has reflex augmentation (Wired Reflexes, Move-by-Wire, or Synaptic booster) does the Increase Reflexes spell work on them (up to the max of 4 IP of course)? If so then having the Synaptic Booster is great for the "Cyber Mage" because he needs less hits to get up to max speed.

I say they overlap, they don't stack. So a mage with 1 level of synaptic booster gets 2 passes. If he casts increase reflexes to get one extra pass his number of passes doesn't change. If he casts it to get 2 extra passes, his is at a total of 3 passes, not 4.
I'm pretty sure that's how it's supposed to work.

[Feshy]

This means that if one spell slinger has vision mag cyberware and the other does not, then the mage with it can geek the mage without it at a MUCH further range.

Way back on page 1, this issue was raised. When I was looking into this and other vision modifiers, I found this:

BBB 173:

Casting a spell requires a Complex Action. The Spellcaster rolls Spellcasting + Magic, modified by foci, totem bonuses, bound spirits, and/or Visibility modifiers.

However, the visibility modifier table doesn't list any modifiers for range at all. Maybe the range doesn't actually matter for spellcasting?

As for the rest of the cybereyes for mages, I have the following table. First, though, let me explain what the numbers mean. The numbers given are the effective bonus of having the cyberware. In other words, assume that the negative modifiers for unaided vision are the default, and that offsetting this negative modifier is an "effective bonus." It might not make sense to some people that way, but it works for me. Here's that table:

CODE

Effective bonus for vision enhancement by race:

                       Human w/LL    Human w/Therm    Ork/Elf    Troll/Dwarf
Full Darkness             N/A             (+3)          (+3)          -
Partial Light              +2               -             -           +2
Light Fog/Rain/Smoke       +1              +2            +1           -
Heavy Fog/Rain/Smoke       +2              +2             -           -
Thermal Smoke              +2               -             -         +2/(+4)*

() indicates that casting would normally be impossible
Races with natural low-light are assumed to purchase thermographic, races with thermo are assumed to purchase low-light
*Whether or not races with natural thermographic can "turn them off" was an ugly debate last time, so I just included both possible modifiers this time.

This shows that for a human, getting full cybereyes is probably a good idea. For an ork or an elf, it might be better just to carry a flashlight to offset the (probably somewhat rare) full darkness penalty. Trolls and dwarves really don't gain much by buying cybereyes, although "partial light" is probably one of the most common modifiers in shadowrun.

Also, keep in mind that pretty much every other feature you can get in cybereyes can still be used by mages without spending the essence via contact lenses, goggles, etc. Only those mods that offset vision penalties need to be paid for by essence! (Of course, there are other advantages to cybereyes -- 100% availability, no gear to loose / break, etc. to consider as well.)

[Fortune]

Excuse me Fortune, I was getting mad at Critias for making his snide comment.

'Twas late, and I had written this absolutely massive response to your posts ... and then read the rest of the thread to find Synner had already answered. That was the best edit I could come up with at the time. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Fuchs]

'Twas late, and I had written this absolutely massive response to your posts ... and then read the rest of the thread to find Synner had already answered. That was the best edit I could come up with at the time. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

I was about to quote you and point you to Synner's post when it changed (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[Fortune]

Wouldn't be the first time I've been caught mid-edit. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[Falconer]

Inline w/ the original point of the thread....

Has anyone considered "Biocompatibility" from augmentation as a way to up the limit on bio/cyberware? I'd think the 10BP is cheap compared to the 10BP to raise magic yet again from an extra fraction of lost essence. (On a related note.. best 2 essence worth of cyber for adepts would also be a fun thread to read!).

Is there any bio/cyberware which is marginal enough to be worth the extra 10BP and the equipment cost?

However, the visibility modifier table doesn't list any modifiers for range at all. Maybe the range doesn't actually matter for spellcasting?

Well I was about to raise that I thought using binoculars gave a -2 dice pool penalty, but I can't find that anywhere... so unless someone else knows the page that's null and void.

Only bit I could find was a -3 dice pool for using the myomeric rope, mage sight goggles, security system etc. (which I'd assume also applies to cheap tricks I like to use like just carrying a simple mirror to target things people don't think I'm looking at or around corners).

[Ryu]

I can see Biocomp(Bioware) if you want to use your essence for key bioware only. It is monetary better than going for betaware.

As the munchkin in me demands a mentor spirit and the astral chameleon quality, the decision is not easy.

[KCKitsune]

I went with Biocompatability and astral chameleon for my combat mage's positive qualities.

[Ryu]

For the adept:
- synaptic accelerators 2
- hyperthyroid gland, cybereyes 3, cyberears 1
- Muscle Toner 4 alpha, Reaction Enhancer 2

All pretty good, even if the eyes and ears will not be everyones thing-to-do. Adepts should consider Biocompatibility(Bioware), if doing all of the above is in the stars.

[Rad]

Hmm, I don't think I'm familiar enough with the rules to make a recommendation--I have been trying to do a similar thing with a technomancer though.

The idea was for a smuggler/rigger type character, who would steal and rig vehicles with his technomancer abilities. I wanted to give him a Sleep Regulator (for those long hauls across the border), Bone Density 2 (for when you wrap that Eurocar around a telephone pole), and Synaptic Booster 2 (just as fast in the meat as in VR)--for a total of 1.75 essence.

I'm having a hell of a time with it though, since losing two points of resonance kills your living persona attributes and complex form maximums. I don't mind having a weak signal rating--most of the time he's going to be in physical contact with the vehicle he's hacking anyway--but with everything else being brought down it's becoming way too expensive in both BP and nuyen.

It'd be a lot easier to just go with an implanted commlink instead, but I really liked the "Ares transporter finds out he's a technomancer after getting the job-standard implants and hosing his resonance" angle I was going for with this guy...

[KCKitsune]

Hmm, I don't think I'm familiar enough with the rules to make a recommendation--I have been trying to do a similar thing with a technomancer though.

The idea was for a smuggler/rigger type character, who would steal and rig vehicles with his technomancer abilities. I wanted to give him a Sleep Regulator (for those long hauls across the border), Bone Density 2 (for when you wrap that Eurocar around a telephone pole), and Synaptic Booster 2 (just as fast in the meat as in VR)--for a total of 1.75 essence.

I'm having a hell of a time with it though, since losing two points of resonance kills your living persona attributes and complex form maximums. I don't mind having a weak signal rating--most of the time he's going to be in physical contact with the vehicle he's hacking anyway--but with everything else being brought down it's becoming way too expensive in both BP and nuyen.

It'd be a lot easier to just go with an implanted commlink instead, but I really liked the "Ares transporter finds out he's a technomancer after getting the job-standard implants and hosing his resonance" angle I was going for with this guy...

This guy is a Technomancer, not a street sammy. You don't need the level 2 synaptic booster. Level 1 should be all that you need.

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Now I've got an interesting question for everyone. Since Synner didn't get back to me on this and it's been almost a week, I thought that I would throw this out:

The Bioware device of Echolocation allows the person it's implanted (with the aid of a vocal range enhancer and hearing enhancement... both bioware systems) into to have a biological version of an Ultrasound system. Would this allow a person to target a mana spell? This entire setup is biological in origin.

[ArkonC]

This guy is a Technomancer, not a street sammy. You don't need the level 2 synaptic booster. Level 1 should be all that you need.

-------------------------------------------------------

Now I've got an interesting question for everyone. Since Synner didn't get back to me on this and it's been almost a week, I thought that I would throw this out:

The Bioware device of Echolocation allows the person it's implanted (with the aid of a vocal range enhancer and hearing enhancement... both bioware systems) into to have a biological version of an Ultrasound system. Would this allow a person to target a mana spell? This entire setup is biological in origin.

I wouldn't give a Technomancer any ware, it chokes resonance and everything you do depends on it...

And no, it wouldn't...
It's not the biological aspect that makes it work, it's the "magical" link vision gives...
Or at least that's what I think...

[KCKitsune]

I wouldn't give a Technomancer any ware, it chokes resonance and everything you do depends on it...

And no, it wouldn't...
It's not the biological aspect that makes it work, it's the "magical" link vision gives...
Or at least that's what I think...

Actually, with a Technomancer, you can give them .99 essence worth of 'ware and they would still not drop a single point of Resonance.

As for the Ultrasound question. The reason that Radar and Ultrasound system were shot down for not making a magic link was because there was tech interpreting the signal and "translating" it into vision. With Echolocation, it's all biology.

[Fortune]

Actually, with a Technomancer, you can give them .99 essence worth of 'ware and they would still not drop a single point of Resonance.

This is incorrect!

Characters with Magic or Resonance attributes are subject to penalties if they have an Essence lower than 6. For each point or partial point of Essence below 6, the character loses 1 full point from her Magic or Resonance and the maximum for that attribute is reduced by 1.

[ArkonC]

Actually, with a Technomancer, you can give them .99 essence worth of 'ware and they would still not drop a single point of Resonance.

As for the Ultrasound question. The reason that Radar and Ultrasound system were shot down for not making a magic link was because there was tech interpreting the signal and "translating" it into vision. With Echolocation, it's all biology.

Well, yes, it is all biology, but it is still translating something that is not vision into vision...
Anyway, you may very well be correct, I just wouldn't allow it unless it was erratad in...

And what Fortune said to that other thing... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Critias]

Man, that'd be sweet, though. You can pack a lot of awesome into .99 Essence for any given combat mage or adept.

[Fortune]

Well, yes, it is all biology, but it is still translating something that is not vision into vision...
Anyway, you may very well be correct, I just wouldn't allow it unless it was erratad in...

I was going to give a flat out negative answer to this, but then didn't want Synner to come in and correct me on the minute chance I am wrong. As it is, now that I have commented, I will go on record as saying the Echolocation (just like Radar and Ultrasound) does not meet the LOS requirements for spellcasting.

[Eyeless Blond]

Man, that'd be sweet, though. You can pack a lot of awesome into .99 Essence for any given combat mage or adept.

Heh, as this thread has shown! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

And yeah, the reason you can't use an echolocation module is it's not actually vision; it's just really good hearing being interpreted as vision (and in fact may not be even that; echolocation is just be a boost to a sense that humans already have, though fairly weak in most normal humans). For whatever reason, Line of Sight, and thus vision, is the key factor for spellcasting; you can't target someone just because you hear them cough from around a corner, or you smell his aftershave, so by the same token Echolocation just doesn't work.

[KCKitsune]

This is incorrect!

Actually, page 232 of the SR4 core rule book:

As with Magic, cyberware and bioware limit Resonance. To determine the severity of this impediment, take any reductions from Essence due to cyberware and/or bioware implants (see p. 62) and round up to the nearest whole number

That to me means, that if I have 5.01 Essence that means I can have 6 Resonance because 5.01 rounds up to 6.

I was going to give a flat out negative answer to this, but then didn't want Synner to come in and correct me on the minute chance I am wrong. As it is, now that I have commented, I will go on record as saying the Echolocation (just like Radar and Ultrasound) does not meet the LOS requirements for spellcasting.

OK, why is that? I can understand that Radar and Cyberware Ultrasound Sensors are translating the signal into something the metahuman mind can use. The Echolocation bioware unit just enhances what's already there (to the level of a Bat, but still it's just an enhancement). This is from page 63 of Augmentation:

In most people, this ability is underdeveloped because they rely primarily on their eyes. This bioware enhances the nerve strands required for echolocation; recipients typically train to use their advanced sense in a two-week-long speed-learning course

[ArkonC]

Actually, page 232 of the SR4 core rule book:


That to me means, that if I have 5.01 Essence that means I can have 6 Resonance because 5.01 rounds up to 6.




OK, why is that? I can understand that Radar and Cyberware Ultrasound Sensors are translating the signal into something the metahuman mind can use. The Echolocation bioware unit just enhances what's already there (to the level of a Bat, but still it's just an enhancement). This is from page 63 of Augmentation:

Yes, you take the reduction, 0.99 in this case, and round up to the nearest whole number, 1 in this case...

And the second thing, your hearing is already there, but no matter how you improve upon it, you will _never_ be able to target magic with it...
Now, if you can prove that echolocation is vision (which it isn't because blind people can do it), then I will agree with you...

[Fortune]

As ArkonC says, it is the reduction that is rounded up. Even a lowly datajack, costing .01 Essence, would reduce a magician's Magic or a Technomancer's Resonance by 1 whole point, as the 'reductions from Essence due to cyberware and/or bioware implants' is rounded up to 1.0.

[KCKitsune]

Yes, you take the reduction, 0.99 in this case, and round up to the nearest whole number, 1 in this case...

OK... that's embarrassing. Sorry about that. The character generator that I use thinks the same way that I did. I can most certainly concede that I was dead wrong about that.

And the second thing, your hearing is already there, but no matter how you improve upon it, you will _never_ be able to target magic with it...
Now, if you can prove that echolocation is vision (which it isn't because blind people can do it), then I will agree with you...

Now THIS will be easy! Page 64 of Augmentation:

If combined with the vocal range enhancer (p. 67) and hearing enhancement (p. 65) implants (or their cyberware equivalents), with a little training this augmentation functions like a true ultrasound system.

The form of sight would like that in the Daredevil movie.

[Critias]

That to me means, that if I have 5.01 Essence that means I can have 6 Resonance because 5.01 rounds up to 6.

It's not your Essence score that is rounded up to the nearest whole number. It is the Essence reduction that is rounded up to the nearest whole number. .99 worth of cyberware? 1 essence. .01 worth of cyberware? Still 1 essence.

OK, why is that? I can understand that Radar and Cyberware Ultrasound Sensors are translating the signal into something the metahuman mind can use. The Echolocation bioware unit just enhances what's already there (to the level of a Bat, but still it's just an enhancement). This is from page 63 of Augmentation:

Because Echolocation isn't enhancing sight. It's enhancing hearing. Spells require line of sight to work. You can't sniff someone out for spellcasting, you can't hear someone for spellcasting, you can't taste someone for spellcasting. You see them.

It's not that hard a concept, really. Daredevil does not see. That's why he's called "a blind person." Daredevil still uses other tricks (like ultrasound, radar, etc) to know where people are so he can punch them, kick them, and hit them with escrima sticks, yes. But he does not see them, which is why you never see him cast any spells at them.

Well, because he can't see them, and because he's not a mage.

[ArkonC]

But Synner himself said ultrasound is not vision and does not qualify, so you've just proven yourself wrong...