Unwired Questions, Now with Merge-y Goodness Options

[crizh]

Since all wireless devices act as routers for matrix traffic.

They don't when they're in hidden mode.

[Moon-Hawk]

Hmmm, I always thought that one of the best features of 4th edition was that hacking wasn't exclusively for the hackers anymore.
For example, in my group there is a hacker. There is another character who can hack, occasionally, when he needs to. If the hacker isn't available, or is knocked out, or jammed or whatever, he's got a fairly nice commlink which he can whip out and make some decent rolls. He's not as good as the hacker, of course, but on rare occasions he can switch from his usual role and save the day with some hacking.

It sort of seems like this sort of thing is less possible now. He certainly can't use legal software, and he wants to keep a full suite of hacking programs just in case he needs them. Oh, plus his library of skillsofts, of course. So suddenly this non-hacker, infiltration/combat character needs skills, money, and time to maintain his abilities? Weird. Of course, I haven't decided whether I want to download the pdf or wait for the dead-tree yet, thus I'm basing this off what people are saying, not the actual book, so maybe I'm way off on this. This whole upkeep thing sounds very not-fun to me.
I was really hoping that Unwired would cause me to retire my matrix house-rules. As it is, I think I'll just have to modify them a bit.

Hmmm, maybe I should bite the bullet and get the pdf; this is going to drive me nuts.

[Nightwalker450]

If a technomancer assists an entropic sprite in a reassembling
process (p. 158), sacrificing one of his registered sprites and
participating in the ritual recoding of the sprite can be used as a
submersion task.

Looks like it can only count as a submersion task if its entropic.

[Rotbart van Dain...]

It gives my hacker a reason to have programming skills. It marks the difference between a real hacker(maintains at least some of his own programs) and a script kiddie.

Actually, writing your own programs now is pretty much worthless as you are forced to spend weeks on patching them every month, and so is the Software Skill. It just comes with the Electronics Skillgroup so most people will still have it.

Technically, it enccourages every Hacker to become a Skript Kiddie and just get cracked software.

[dionysus]

I think entropic = free in that description, perhaps a mistake. There doesn't seem to be any reason given in the description for it to be limited to entropic sprites, and the submersion task references the dissonance-neutral description on p158. As a GM, I would let a player use a reassembly task for any free sprite. I'd be surprised if that doesn't get errata-ed, but I've been surprised before.

[dionysus]

Can we really please let the program degradation fight die? I don't want to stifle argument, but it's really not going anywhere. None of you are going to convince the other side that they're wrong, so just [use|houserule] the thing and everybody put your righteous indignation away.

[Rotbart van Dain...]

They're certainly capable of doing so, however in my three years of running SR4, my hackers haven't done so. YMMV.

Pretty much any hacker I know in SR4 became a combat hacker with drones and implants, while sams picked up some drones and hacking, too.

[Ryu]

..wich best is a NPC and the matrix belongs only to Hackers, Technomancers and AI, anyway - suuure. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sarcastic.gif)

A reduced threshold is never better, as it equals 4 bonus dice.

No, you need to go through the entire euqipment list every two months ingame. Idle chores, no fun.

1) The non-hacking runner was and is your point, not mine. Hacking runners will have absolutely no problem using cracked programs.

2) Not true. It equals 3 dice on average, and deviation is even your friend here. Those dice are rolled multiple times, as your Stealth crushes the opponents dp. Assuming a tracing agent 3, Response 3 and Stealth 5 (on your side), the agent needs on average 30 IPs to trace you, -3 IP per legal program in use. Assuming 4 such programs, you are looking at a threshold of 6 / 18 IPs. If those legal programs increased dp, you´d be looking at 5 dice against a threshold of 10, or about 6 IP. A non-hacker against serious trace agents (rating 6) ends as fast as it should, but seven dice against a threshold of 6 will still last more than one IP. Main issue - knowing that you are traced while it happens.

3) It is only true book-keeping if you intend to accept rating reductions. Otherwise you just keep track of the number of hacking/common use/autosofts/autonomous programs you own. Relevant purchases are rare.

[Nightwalker450]

I think entropic = free in that description, perhaps a mistake. There doesn't seem to be any reason given in the description for it to be limited to entropic sprites, and the submersion task references the dissonance-neutral description on p158. As a GM, I would let a player use a reassembly task for any free sprite. I'd be surprised if that doesn't get errata-ed, but I've been surprised before.

Thats kind of what I was thinking it should be... But I still wish I knew how the sprites felt about this. My technomancer is currently having issues with a free sprite (maybe even entropic I don't know...), and I was thinking this might be a way to appease it, or start up some real communication with it. But I don't like the idea of registering sacrificial sprites for it. I try to stay friendly with my sprites.

[dionysus]

Thats kind of what I was thinking it should be... But I still wish I knew how the sprites felt about this. My technomancer is currently having issues with a free sprite (maybe even entropic I don't know...), and I was thinking this might be a way to appease it, or start up some real communication with it. But I don't like the idea of registering sacrificial sprites for it. I try to stay friendly with my sprites.

I don't like it either...as a player. But as a GM, I love the roleplaying opportunity. No matter how the TM chooses, there's a whole plot hook dropped right into my lap. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/vegm.gif)

[Rotbart van Dain...]

The non-hacking runner was and is your point, not mine.

Nope - the non-hacker was.

It equals 3 dice on average

No, it's worth 4 dice as that's the ratio of guaranteed hits.

It is only true book-keeping if you intend to accept rating reductions. Otherwise you just keep track of the number of hacking/common use/autosofts/autonomous programs you own.

So you think that a cracked Firewall and System doesn't degrade?

[Nightwalker450]

I don't like it either...as a player. But as a GM, I love the roleplaying opportunity. No matter how the TM chooses, there's a whole plot hook dropped right into my lap. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/vegm.gif)

Yah, I'm hooked.. and he started all this before Unwired. So until he gets his hand on the book I don't think he has any idea what to do with it yet. But we're taking a break from SR now to try the DnD4... So I'm in the dark for a few months till we get back to SR. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/eek.gif)

[Jaid]

Few questions... (Completely unrelated to degradation, but completely related to this topic...)

[snip]

Submersion: Reassembling. Am I correct in reading only Entropic Sprites can be reassembled to provide a discount to Submersion? So we have to deal with a "anti-resonance" sprite, we can't assist a good sprite and gain a benefit? Also regarding the absorption, it says some technomancers see it as sacrificing a sprite, others see it as crossbreeding of the code... How do the sprites feel about this?

[snip]

Echos: Biowires. Emulation takes a skillsoft and then you threading test (still no action I assume), threshold of the rating. Then you can sustain it, or learn it as a complex form paying karma equal to rating. So this makes it easier for me to learn Pistols, then it does for me to learn a computer program. Since Rating 4 Pistols, is only 4 karma, and learning rating 4 Browse will take 11 karma. Can I emulate computer programs to save cost? Though I guess it has been said you can't thread a skillsoft to a higher rating. Biowires also apply the same limits as to the number of skillsofts you can run?

eep, you've been reading my thoughts! time to get the tinfoil hat out again! =P

seriously, i was gonna ask these same questions (well, more or less).

in particular, i was wondering if entropic sprite was supposed to mean free sprite (since entropic sprites don't necessarily reassemble, but free sprites *do*), and whether or not it's possible for a TM to emulate, say, an agent. or a regular program. or a pilot. and if so, how do those interact with stuff, since they're resonance entities? can they run on normal nodes, or do they need to run on the TM's power?

also, there's a sprite power listed in the section on sprites called transfer. so far as i can tell, no sprite actually has this power. what's up with that?

[TheGothfather]

Could you please explain how the SOTA rules could discourage the player from powergaming?

Sure. The bookkeeping is a pain in the ass. Even if, as Dashfein (I think it was him) has pointed out, it's a small pain in the ass, it's still one more thing to keep track of. If that kind of micromanagement floats a player's boat, then by all means he can deal with it. But I think that, over all, it will make using cracked software suck to deal with.

Your point, that the hacker doesnt have the time to distribute his cracked patches/software to other people is not valid.

You're right. It's not. But, then again, that wasn't really the point I was getting at.

1) If he is cracking/patching it himself, he needs so much time he cannot run.

This makes it a pain in the ass.

2) If he is searching for cracked software/patches, he needs money and the player needs a lot of patience, when the GM is determining the result of 20+ rolls (or bought hits).

This also makes it a pain in the ass. Also, if you play with the rule that says you can only make a number of extended test rolls equal to your dice pool, unless you're a wicked awesome haxor, you're never going to make 20+ rolls. Me, I pretty much do away with extended tests in my game, because they're not fun, and I like to skip to the fun parts.

3) And he *must* search for cracked patches or program the patches for himself, otherwise, after some month, he will not be able to hack anything over a basic commlink without any defense. The problem/limitiation is not the distributation to other characters, it is the constrait to get patches for himself every month.

Yeah. That's kinda what I'm saying. Cracking programs makes more work for the hacker's player. Therefore, he's more likely to tell the other players to buy their own got-damn programs.

[Nightwalker450]

Here's a question I had from before, that I don't think Unwired answered

Technomancer's affecting files.

If a Technomancer Encrypts or Data Bombs (or add Timer Option now) a file, how long does that stay? Does he have to remain in the node with it, does he have to sustain the thread for it, or can he just place Data Bombs and Encryption on everything without a worry.

[apple]

Therefore, he's more likely to tell the other players to buy their own got-damn programs.

No, unfortunately he is not more likely: He must crack his own programs/buy cracked patches for HIMSELF. When he got the cracked software/patches (which he must do to be able to continue hacking) he can and will distribute the software to everyone else in his group, because this action just needs one sentence: "Dear GM, I send this software to my group". This action is in no way stopping distribution of cracked software in a runnergroup.

And to be honest: I am not quite sure if it makes any sense to balance a game around bad rules. It would mean that SR3, ADD 2nd and Rifts would be totally balanced games.

Also, if you play with the rule that says you can only make a number of extended test rolls equal to your dice pool, unless you're a wicked awesome haxor, you're never going to make 20+ rolls

You don´t seem to understand. You need to roll for every program individually. If you have over 20 programs (common, hacking and some linguasoft for example) you have to roll over 20 times (or buy successes) individually (and each one an extended test). A simple agent rating 4 can buy 16 successes, an advanced agent rating 6 can buy 36 successes that I assume this will be the method of choice.

SYL

[Rotbart van Dain...]

Cracking programs makes more work for the hacker's player.

No, cracking programs was perfectly fine with the main book - you had to pay the full price initially. Just Unwired made it it Shadowrun: The Accounting.

[TheGothfather]

No, unfortunately he is not more likely: He must crack his own programs/buy cracked patches for HIMSELF. When he got the cracked software/patches (which he must do to be able to continue hacking) he can and will distribute the software to everyone else in his group, because this action just needs one sentence: "Dear GM, I send this software to my group". This action is in no way stopping distribution of cracked software in a runnergroup.

And to be honest: I am not quite sure if it makes any sense to balance a game around bad rules. It would mean that SR3, ADD 2nd and Rifts would be totally balanced games.

SYL

Dude. Okay. Let's pretend he doesn't crack his programs. What happens? Oh, he doesn't have to deal with all the patching/degradation bullshit. Great! The hacker is now happy go lucky. Maybe, if you're a stickler, you might have him keep up the SOTA with regard to exploit/firewall/attack/stealth. I probably wouldn't, as that kind of micromanagement makes me want to punch babies. Hell, I don't even like keeping track of nuyen - I'd rather buy shit with dice rolls. But I digress.

Now, the players decide they're going to have the hacker crack all his proggies and hand them out to the rest of the team like candy. This is how it would work in my game:

Hacker: Right, I'm gonna crack my warez and disseminate them to the team.
Me: Okay. Here are the cracking rules. Have fun with that. Meanwhile, the rest of you get to start in on the scene that's made of awesome.
Hacker, out of character: Wait, I have to do this all myself?
Me: Yup. Every game month. W00t cracked software rules.
Hacker: Fuck this. You bastards can buy your own software.
Me. Good. Can we get on with the fun stuff now?

Then again, maybe your players are less interested in actually playing than mine are.

Anyway, this subject has long ago descended into the depths of rules-lawyer wankery. You can use, not use, or attempt to justify rules like this however you want. But there's more good stuff in the book than bad, as far as I'm concerned, so I'm dropping this particular subject.

[TheGothfather]

No, cracking programs was perfectly fine with the main book - you had to pay the full price initially. Just Unwired made it it Shadowrun: The Accounting.

Gah. You know what I meant. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/ohplease.gif)

[Jaid]

Dude. Okay. Let's pretend he doesn't crack his programs. What happens? Oh, he doesn't have to deal with all the patching/degradation bullshit. Great! The hacker is now happy go lucky. Maybe, if you're a stickler, you might have him keep up the SOTA with regard to exploit/firewall/attack/stealth. I probably wouldn't, as that kind of micromanagement makes me want to punch babies. Hell, I don't even like keeping track of nuyen - I'd rather buy shit with dice rolls. But I digress.

if you *don't* crack your programs, then it will probably be a threshold 0 extended data search test to find you. do i need to explain just how bad that is?

also, iirc, pretty much as soon as you use your registered programs for anything illegal, you can no longer get the patches for them free of charge.

so you're missing out on the part where staying registered isn't really an option. on the other hand, owning a botnet* that patches all your software? that shouldn't be a problem, as far as i can tell. a bit cheesy, and it begs the question of why wouldn't everyone be doing that, but it can be done.

* strictly speaking, the profession autosoft is a drone autosoft. you may need to actually own a bunch of drones instead, which can spend all their downtime patching your programs. regardless, the point stands: drone labor ftw!

[Ryu]

So you think that a cracked Firewall and System doesn't degrade?

They do. Same price category as autosofts. Thank god we only need one of each.

[Fuchs]

Am I the only one who thinks that rules that turn something in a game into work, hassle, and not-fun-at-all are something a good game shouldn't have?

[TheGothfather]

that kind of micromanagement makes me want to punch babies

I'm pretty sure that this implied that I agree with you.

[Rotbart van Dain...]

Am I the only one who thinks that rules that turn something in a game into work, hassle, and not-fun-at-all are something a good game shouldn't have?

No. I'd rather play D&D4 - it will give me cancer, but at least it's fun cancer.

[Moon-Hawk]

it will give me cancer, but at least it's fun cancer.

Which, as I understand it, lost to "The world's most popular role-playing game" by a very narrow margin. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)