The 1 percent, Magicians, Magic, and the financial issues Options

[sunnyside]

As has been mentioned Cthulhudreams since we don't hear about everything being movemented in the game I think it's better to assume RAW comes up a bit short on that power. (Or rather the GM should interprite the 4+ in the object resistance table to include increasing size). Additionally within RAW the GM could factor in the effects of moving that speed. I.e. structural failure, horribly high collision odds and consequences.

Personally I'd rather see the power restricted to things about the same size as the spirit. THough I think the 4+ thing is a good idea in general unless you want your oil tanker taken down by a couple power bolts or somesuch.

[Cthulhudreams]

The problem with saying that lots of mages arn't qualified for a corp job doesn't relly address why they'd go shadowrunning.

You can make a 0 risk high lifestyle by gathering telesma. Why am I out getting my ass shot off again?

And it reduces the number of availible mages for sec work even further. Assume 5 % of mages are qualified in and want to do sec work - remember, decent magic score, high counterspelling, combat spells known - that means that 0.05% of the population are qualified to do sec work

Assuming they all do it, that means a facility of 2000 qualifies for a sec mage. But thats working 9-5. You actually need 5 guys to offer 24/7 coverage of a facility.

So that means facilities of 10k people may have an onsite sec mage.

And again, removing movement fixes nothing. Consider Heal and ER.

ER doctors get paid about 200,000 dollars today. Thats more in nuyen, but okay. So that means that a high lifestyle sawbones can still save 80,000 nuyen a year

And thats working in a clinic where you get to feel good and have no risk of getting stabbed.

Seriously. No-one is going to do a job that involves professionals attempting to murder you when you can just do something at no risk.

[masterofm]

You screw up. Why is the crazy gun bunny not in special forces? Probably because he screwed up somewhere. Might have even been in the special forces until it all went to hell. I always thought of Shadowrunners as generally created by falling from grace, or they want to make money fast and get out of the game before it kills them. Others seek power, some seek adventure, and even more don't want their freedoms limited and you might not get that working in a corp.

A corp might just stick you in a job and give you no real choice of what you are going to do. Although they might pay well you might be basically a prisoner within the compound you are placed in. It's probably why runners are hired to steal people from other corporate facilities. Maybe the cage will be better, maybe worse, but it might be better taking the chance instead of being cooped up in said facility for ten or twenty more years.

[Muspellsheimr]

So that means facilities of 10k people may have an onsite sec mage.

Not accurate. 1% of the population (global) is Awakened. This could very well vary by geographical regions. For example, there could theoretically be a city with a population of 200,000 that has no more than 50 Awakened. Conversely, there could be a town with a population of 20,000 that has over 2,500 Awakened.

A facility that uses active magical security will artificially inflate the percentage of security employee's who are Awakened by seeking them out from other locals, if they do not have enough on-site already. Essentially, a facility with 500 people that uses magical security could very well have a 10% or higher Awakened population.

[Sir_Psycho]

Mages have to go to college. They have to learn complex algorithyms and abstract concepts at the same time. They also should probably be brave, but not stupid, in order to venture into the astral and not die. They also should probably understand their value in the workforce and the politics that go with that. But the big one is that they have to learn obscenely complex algorithyms.

Think about it. Mage magic is not mathematics. It is not calculus or trigonometry. It's a little bit more like algebra, except X is a thousand different things that cover far more abstract things than basic maths. Also, it's in another language.

Now think of that importance corps put on mages. the Awakened know that they're valuable. They're probably daddy's favourite son, and mommy's favourite son, because they're going to get a scholarship to go to university.

They also have the teen mystique of awakening, and while there might be a little prejudice, for the most part, chicks will dig that.

Give them a scholarship then consider my above points. Mages are for a decent part, fratboy arseholes on football scholarships. And while a few are actually training to become corporate magical researchers and maybe even some become special forces, the rest of these guys are too busy getting high on the lawn and tapping the dorm chicks. Oo-rah! Gamma Zeta Epsilon REPRESENT!

And that's why we have so many magical security guards.

[sunnyside]

Again a mage on sec duty would rarely be doing that full time. They'd be warding mostly, or maybe healing or whatever and then when the fit hits the shan they get called in.

Also considering where much telesma is I"m not so sure it's a zero risk proposition.


Oh, also I don't know if it's been mentioned but a lot of mages could be runners because someone is gunning for them. Being able to kill with a thought even when drunk is probably a quick way to get in trouble with the law. As is using control actions to have your way with a cheerleader. And in general a lot of the stuff magic would tempt them to do. Beyond that people may be after them for personal reasons. Or maybe there's that spirit that went free and still worries about its true name.

Staying in one place where you can be found just won't cut it at that point.

[masterofm]

Shamans have to go to college? Granted some mages might have to go to college to learn their certain types of spells, but I was under the impression that magic works the way the caster believes it to work. Some need to draw pentagrams and whisper arcane languages, others need a complex formula to work. There is probably a type that needs to draw circles onto some cheese to get a spell, ward, or summoning to work.

There are many different types of traditions and not every single one requires college training to obtain. I doubt the first Native American, or Aztec mages needed to go to college to start working their mojo. I think though that the next generation of mages from those traditions needed a mentor shaman or priest to help teach them.

[Blade]

I think you can compare sec mage with security hackers.
Today you can get a lot of money with software: Microsoft and Google are here to prove it, to name a few. I seriously doubt that more than 1% of the world's population is in software engineering, yet there are a lot of them who work in computer security and they're not necessarily the worst.

[Isath]

Don't also forget, that this teen mistery of awakening is not always (or even often) that glamorous it can be traumatic. Uh, Oh, little Johnny is starting to see and hear things... he wont let go of invisible friends or just behaves strangely. Awakening childreen and teens might as well be victims of a "we have to be normal, so take your pills and you'll be fine" mentality. They might end up being heavily disturbed and or frustrated. Sure, that doesn't speak against them being arses. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) Mommy and daddy are not necessarily proud of breeding a "mutant". Which brings us to the point, that there are quite some metas in the equation. There are bias against magic, there are bias against metas, sure as hell there are even more bias against magical metas. Grow up with that.

There are so many reasons out there.

[Cthulhudreams]

Not accurate. 1% of the population (global) is Awakened. This could very well vary by geographical regions. For example, there could theoretically be a city with a population of 200,000 that has no more than 50 Awakened. Conversely, there could be a town with a population of 20,000 that has over 2,500 Awakened.

A facility that uses active magical security will artificially inflate the percentage of security employee's who are Awakened by seeking them out from other locals, if they do not have enough on-site already. Essentially, a facility with 500 people that uses magical security could very well have a 10% or higher Awakened population.

Yeah, obviously, but seriously because magical workers are thin on the ground they are going to have very high mobility. And for every tiny reasearch facility that has 5 guards per 500 desks (or more practically 25 high force magicians guarding 495 people) there has to be a serious stripping out in other professional fields.

And it still doesn't explain why they wouldn't want to become a doctor. Seriously, who looks at these two choices and picks B

A) I can work as a trauma surgeon, except unlike a real doctor, I don't need any training. Sure I'm on call, but I get to save lives and shit, and for that I get paid 300,000 dollars.

B) I work as a security guard where professional killers try and murder me on a regular basis, I'm on call 24/7, the work is extremely dangerous and if I do my job well I then have to try and kill people in a firefight - who will try and kill me right back, and their motto is 'geek the mage first', but I get a cool 300k a year! If I'm lucky! Note that real security professionals get paid nothing like that. (300k would mean that the total cost of 1 sec mage on duty is 1.5 million nuyen annually in salary costs alone)

Seriously. What the hell. Who here would pick B? If so, are you some sort of idiot.

Edit: I don't care about people who are unemployable. I'm only thinking about the people who have the mental stability to have a real job, because they are the only people who can work as sec mages. My point is there should be no sec mages, realistically.

[Shiloh]

[snip]

Give them a scholarship then consider my above points. Mages are for a decent part, fratboy arseholes on football scholarships. And while a few are actually training to become corporate magical researchers and maybe even some become special forces, the rest of these guys are too busy getting high on the lawn and tapping the dorm chicks. Oo-rah! Gamma Zeta Epsilon REPRESENT!

And that's why we have so many magical security guards.

Snork.

That made me larf.

[masterofm]

Magical healing is a one shot kind of deal. You would probably only need a single on call healing/cure disease mage for a very very large area (for when normal medical means do not work.) The way healing rules are written you wouldn't jump to the mage first, and if you need him he could just zip on over, appear and heal the patient, or have a spirit of man do it on a remote service. They might not even pay that well if there is very little demand, or the amount of mages needed compared to the ones who can do the job will probably offset the wages by a little bit.

There is a demand for healing but I think there is a higher demand for security mages, but I feel like corporate facilities don't get hit all the time (unless that is the setting you play.) Probably the majority of sec mages don't get hassled during their job, and those that do are probably few and far between. I just don't think real professional Shadowrunners are all over the place hitting facilities on a routine basis. Now that is a different setting if hits on facilities are extremely common then having a job as a sec mage would totally suck balls.

[Muspellsheimr]

First, relying solely on magic for your supposed medical profession is retarded, plain and simple. While being able to magically heal & Assense your patients is a distinct advantage, that alone is far from qualifying as a medical professional & will not bring in your proposed funds.

Second, it is quite reasonable to assume that not everyone of said level is capable of option A - even under your assumption that all you need is a single spell. Many could have military training and simply be far better suited for a security-type position.

Finally, I know numerous people that could easily be receiving much greater income in a different field. Why don't they? Because they have no desire to work said field. They enjoy their current job, are comfortable with it, &/or various other factors. Some people enjoy the risk. Others enjoy the option to protect people (distinctly different from dealing with the injured). Some want the option to injure others.

Put simply, there is a significant number of reasons why a magician would choose Corporate Security/Armed Forces over Medical Professional or Other.

[Blade]

If you pick Option A you don't get to fireball anyone, and what's the point of having superpowers if you can't fireball people?

[sunnyside]

There just isn't that much demand for magical healers.

Unless you want to blow your own spleen you have to only cast on damage less than your or equal to your magic rating. And if you're doing that you're probably not taking any drain. Ditto for cure and detox really, especially since at those wages they'll probably spot you some foci.

What does that mean? A single mage goes a long way, being able to process a vast number of patients as they only need to spend seconds with each. 2-4 mages per hospital might be enough.

I'm guessing the mages that would win the positions would be those with good drain soaking stats so they can go strong all day long.

Though on the warding note I bet they'd want the mage to summon up a spirit to just ward certain areas of the hospital as part of the contract.

[masterofm]

Just as there are significant reasons why someone would rather not join Corporate Security/Special Forces. It's all relative and in the end it all turns into a circular argument.

As for myself I just take the world today and try and overlay it with Shadowrun if possible (except everything sucks more for the most part.) Some people seek medical careers, and some seek military careers, while others just do everyday stuff in RL. Not every mage even falls under researcher, military, shadowrunner, medical professions. I bet there are probably some mages who just have a crappy wage slave job and use their magical powers for trivial baloney. Some mages might be bums or BTL burnouts where despite the fact they have power they are just lost in a sea of VR or drugs to pull themselves out of the gutter and do something. Just because mages are mages does not mean they suddenly only get fit into one box or another. In the end mages are people and people do people... stuff... let there be some sort of mix with a somewhat push or pull to one type of job or another that fits with a mages spell choice. Mages vary and it's nice to have a game where you can see that not all mages fit one job description or another.

[Isath]

My point is there should be no sec mages, realistically.

Ok I won't start arguing about absolute statements and realism, with the addiotion of the aspects of a fantasy game. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Still, some people just do not want to be doctors and some people can't. First, there might still be a requirement of medical studies. Second maybe you aren't such a talented healer, maybe you are better at manipulation, combat, illusion or detection spells, maybe you do not even like people or healing them, maybe you do not like all the blood and gore or diseases around you.

Sure, you may have blood and gore being a sec mage, then again the chances are low. There are different kinds of security sevices, with most of the shooting stuff usually being done by the mudanes. You deal with securing the corp against awakened penetration and threats, maybe do a little surveilance and so on. Most of the time awakened security is a clean job with quite some possibilities to do personal studies or experimenting with your skills. On the other hand, maybe you like the thrill that some security positions might give you, maybe you have some fight in you and like to play territorial bully for good money.

I guess there are reasons, why people that can get an academic degree or even have one go into law enforcement and alot of other fields. Maybe the reasons do not differ from mudane choices all too much.

P.S. Corporate security in SR sure is better than to be a cop, while it still is law enforcement, only that the state is a megacorp (they have their own laws and all that extraterritory stuff).

[Sir_Psycho]

Shamans have to go to college?

If you look, you'll note I actually said mages, indicating hermetics, who, let's face it, end up in corporate positions. A shaman is an artist, yeah maybe they'll work for a corp, but I think you'd definately find more shamans in independent business.

The main problem is that you're equating opportunity with ambition. The awakening equals opportunity, not ambition, or success.

But to extend the artist metaphor, sure, shamans have courses at MIT&T, just like most conventional universities offer conventional courses like "fine arts" (in australia), and then you've got a fair few big art schools everywhere.

The point is that of that 1%, not all are eligible for all the roles you want to put them in. My point with the fratboy example was that just because some-one has the potential to do it, does not nearly mean that they will. Just because statistically they can make a whole lot of money.

Think about how many people you know who can draw well. I can draw, some of my friends can, and some of them just can't. Now imagine how many of those friends who can draw go to art school. And now, how many of those kids who go to art school end up multi-billion dollar art world commodities? Yeah. Not many. My mother and father can draw, and they both went to art school. My mother is a therapist in a nursing home and my father is on a disability pension.

But they could have made million dollars, right? So why didn't they?

[sunnyside]

Two other quick thoughts.

In addition to not needing so many mages per hospital you probably get people that want to heal, especially healy shamen, who may be willing to work on the cheap. Undercutting wages.

Also there may be a power aspect to running and stuff like that. Karma/Legend is "real" in Shadowrun/Earthdawn and being in the action is the fastest way to get it. That probably gets addictive.

[Tiger Eyes]

Two other quick thoughts.

In addition to not needing so many mages per hospital you probably get people that want to heal, especially healy shamen, who may be willing to work on the cheap. Undercutting wages.

Hospitals are probably places with background counts. People suffering, pain, misery, death... on a constant, 24/7 basis. Add to that the number of folks with some cyberware (even if it is minor). Then look at how well your average shaman (magic 3) is going to be able to work in that environment--they aren't going to be that effective. And in an ER? I'd guess background count would jack up even higher. Then think about how the shaman (or mage) would feel about the astral space there. And how effective spirits would be. Heck, your magic 3 shaman probably just lost all his/her magic abilities in the ER when the busload of crash victims gets wheeled in...

Magical healing - and magical healers - are probably more effective in little clinics out in the woods. And who's going to go there? Not the gunshot victim. There is a reason why in the UCAS, magical healing isn't mainstream...

[masterofm]

Uuuuh... you can clean up astral background count. Yeah there is suffering 24/7, but that is what the astral janitorial mage is for. Background count is not always the win, and mages can clean it up given time. A valid point though the mage would need one more thing going for him in that he would have to remove the background count in a hospital every once and a while. Scrub it clean mundanely and scrub it clean astrally. Makes sense. Although if an entire bus filled with people gets hammered I would think that they would take that massive influx of people and split them up between different hospitals.

I always thought that not everyone and their mother has cyber/bioware in the SR world (or at least no more then a datajack.) It's probably not so prominent in every tom dick and jane that it will knock hits off of your ability to heal the person (bio/cyber > 0.5 worth of essence.) There are also rankings for hospitals in the BBB and probably the elite hospitals probably are the ones with the high lvl mages that deal with the heavily cyber/biowared people instead of the lower end hospitals.

Magical healing can only be done once to a specific set of wounds or disease or what have you. It should be the last option. Kind of like how generally surgery is the last option for doctors (if they can help it.) You only get one shot, and if that mage fails thats it your done on the magical help. A mage might try and heal you before you have to go into surgery (aka probably extended care,) but after that the only thing their heal spell could be used for is preventing the doctor from killing you on the table. The only problem is a doctor has to cut you up and wound you before he can remove what you need removed, so a heal spell might reset the clock on what a doctor needs to do. All very tricky in my opinion to the point where I would think that a mage would also need as much mundane medical training as a normal doctor so that it can make the use of his magical heal that much more effective. It then also means that there probably a few who work in the medical profession. I'm sure they get payed the big bucks, but I would think a mage like that there might be a single one assigned to a group of low-medium end hospitals.

Just my 2 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif)

[De Badd Ass]

Don't forget Humanis.

Also, Astral Travel being what it is, Security Mage jobs are a good candidate for Outsourcing. Get a 1000 mages from Bangalore working for a security company. They send their spirits to patrol the client's properties, and are prepared to respond astrally. That's gotta PO the locals to some degree.

Plus, like a certain Drug Czar once said, "Crime is a career choice. Some people are convinced that crime pays better than honest work."

[Rasumichin]

Shamans have to go to college?

My urban shaman PC did.
Granted, he didn't get a degree, but a drinking problem...but still.

SR fluff suggests that college education in thaumaturgy might be mostly for hermetics, but not exclusively.
Shamanism and wicca classes are mentioned regularly, even though they might be less well-funded than their hermetic counterparts.
Wuxia, Cabala and parts of druidism are described as highly academic disciplines.

Hermetics doesn't work for everyone.
To be a good hermetic, you have to be a highly organized, extremely rational person.
What if you aren't, but still are highly talented?
Should a corp let the talent of all the people who have Logic as their dump stat (i'm exagerating a bit, but still, LOG 3 won't get you far as a hermetic), but a decent Magic and Charisma or Intuition attribute, go to waste?
Or would it be much better to find traditions more suited to their talents?

Moreover, having magic, no matter which tradition, taught at a university, means at least some degree of control over the curriculum.
Governments and corporations should have an interest in having a say in who gets to learn how to kill people with a thought or read and control other people's minds.
Much easier when magical education is institutionalized.

Don't get me wrong, there'll still be plenty people around who get to learn spellslinging from their granny or their tribe's witchdoctor, especially in rural areas.
An awakened who is born SINless can be happy if he finds a whizzer gang or a street witch to tell her how to work her mojo.

But still, college education for traditions besides hermetic magic are around in official fluff and there's plenty of good reasons for it.

[sunnyside]

@masterofm I see mages in hospitals as being the finishing touch. The doctors do everything you can but than in real life you're lying there with tubes and stiches and you're goingto be sore and hurting for a looooong while.

The mages task is to clear off those last four boxes of damage.

[Heath Robinson]

@masterofm I see mages in hospitals as being the finishing touch. The doctors do everything you can but than in real life you're lying there with tubes and stiches and you're goingto be sore and hurting for a looooong while.

The mages task is to clear off those last four boxes of damage.

Bah, the mages task is to clear off another 4 boxes of damage (only on gold or platinum service, though). Then you linger for a while, tended to by normal medicine. Now, if you have the orichalcum service you can get one of their Adepts with Empathic Healing to take all the damage off you and have the bed rest instead. You still pay for their care, but you're up and about long before you would normally be.