Free Spirit Questions from Companion Options

[HappyDaze]

Infected (vampires, ghouls, etc.), Drakes, and Changelings cost BP becasue they are not what your character is but rather something that changes your character. Shapeshifters, Sasquatch, Pixies, and Free Spirits are different - they pay no Karma per RAW to gain their 'metatype' under the Karma system.

[Aaron]

what about grounding?
does that work through spirits?
probably not, but i thought i'd ask while we're at it . .

Er ... if you're asking about grounding, you're probably looking at the wrong edition of Runner's Companion. Just sayin'.

would a free spirit that somehow learns the sacrificing metamagic be considered a blood-spirit? O.o
or at least twisted/toxic?
free spirit of (sha)[wo]man following (praying) mantis?
would that make the spirit an insect spirit?

Free spirits have traditions, same as magicians. I suppose one could have a free spirit of the Blood Magic or Insect Shaman tradition, although the same "not intended for use as a PC" disclaimer would apply.

can a free spirit character follow some mentor-spirit?

Is it on the list of forbidden qualities?

[raverbane]

A question about Friendship pacts. I know that most folks dont think in the context of longterm storytelling and longterm motivations of characters in the games, given the remarks about the lifespan questions. But, from a spirit's perspective, isnt a Friendship pact a form of spiritual suicide?

Given that once a pact is made, it is permanent.
From SM "Ending a spirit pact without the death of one or both of the participants is usually not possible and is the stuff of epic magic and plot devices. Any time a character and a spirit have a pact, either party may be used as a sympathetic link (see p. 28) to other or to astrally track the other."

And from RC "This pact does exact a toll on the spirit. Every time a pact member dies, the spirit’s Force rating is reduced by one. Its natural maximum attributes are also reduced, which may cause the reduction of one or more attribute ratings; if a spirit’s Edge is reduced, it also loses at least one Power Point worth of critter powers. If all of the spirit’s pact friends die, its Force is reduced to zero and the spirit dissipates into the astral. To help delay this fate, a spirit may burn one of its own Edge to save a pact friend from death (p. 68, SR4). "

So, as a Free Spirit of force 5, I enter into a friendship pact with these five MORTALS. My life is attached to thier's. Now, unless I pick up Formula Pact and all of them agree to enter into Formula pacts, as well as the Friendship pacts, then as they grow old and die. I too start to die, forced to burn alot of the karma that I sweated to get just to buy back what I loose as my friends die. Nothing to say on the fact that, even if they dont aggree to formula pacts, they are all still sympathetic links to me.

From a the prospective of the spirit, kinda hard to see an upside to this.

[Ryu]

the karma chargen system seems to be a bit confusing to me. there are added costs for race, from one of the dev's posts on how much it actually costs to be a nosferatu i think it was, but i'm not sure where they came from...

There are two kinds of racial bp: classical and quality costs. The karma-based system ignores classical metatype BP.

This issue might actually be for the errata. Including a minimum statline in the base cost removes some massive minmaxing options, but also ends up with a different cost under the karma system. From some quick calculation of existing characters, everyone else is gaining substantial power with that change. One could aim for 450 karma.

[Stahlseele]

I too start to die, forced to burn alot of the karma that I sweated to get just to buy back what I loose as my friends die. Nothing to say on the fact that, even if they dont aggree to formula pacts, they are all still sympathetic links to me.

what's supposed to stop a facey ghost from making more friendshit pacts with other people?

[Ryu]

Technically!, a number of friends EQUAL to force. But I really applaud this idea of effectivly putting "you want the approval of your group" into the rules.

[raverbane]

what's supposed to stop a facey ghost from making more friendshit pacts with other people?

They could, but that would just make the issue worse. "Every time a pact member dies, the spirit's Force rating is reduced by one. " It isnt that they loose a force point when their 'circle' of friends drops below there force. But, for every person that have a pact with that dies. They more folks they have pacts with, just means more force they will loose.

[Isath]

Don't forget, if your group / storyteller agrees on the point of low viability of the free spirit character, you can always rule the cost down or raise the starting BP. It is not like those numbers are set in stone; the BBB allready states that. Make all of the stuff fit your campaign.

[Aaron]

They could, but that would just make the issue worse. "Every time a pact member dies, the spirit's Force rating is reduced by one. " It isnt that they loose a force point when their 'circle' of friends drops below there force. But, for every person that have a pact with that dies. They more folks they have pacts with, just means more force they will loose.

And more Force they can have.

Ever played an Orion ship in Starfleet Battles?

[Ryu]

or the player is being a total ass first...

still, is it any worse then slapping a mage player with a shedim invasion?

hell, if done right i can see the player of the spirit getting the job of interpreting the orders given by the conjurer (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

(hint: be very very detailed and specific)

I recommend that anyone reads the Bartimaeus triology before playing a free spirit. I´d be willing to take that 15 BP flaw twice. "Sorry, master calling..."

And the 250 BP should definitly grant the player in question a special plot.

[Wanderer]

A question about Friendship pacts. I know that most folks dont think in the context of longterm storytelling and longterm motivations of characters in the games, given the remarks about the lifespan questions. But, from a spirit's perspective, isnt a Friendship pact a form of spiritual suicide?

Given that once a pact is made, it is permanent.
From SM "Ending a spirit pact without the death of one or both of the participants is usually not possible and is the stuff of epic magic and plot devices. Any time a character and a spirit have a pact, either party may be used as a sympathetic link (see p. 28) to other or to astrally track the other."

And from RC "This pact does exact a toll on the spirit. Every time a pact member dies, the spirit’s Force rating is reduced by one. Its natural maximum attributes are also reduced, which may cause the reduction of one or more attribute ratings; if a spirit’s Edge is reduced, it also loses at least one Power Point worth of critter powers. If all of the spirit’s pact friends die, its Force is reduced to zero and the spirit dissipates into the astral. To help delay this fate, a spirit may burn one of its own Edge to save a pact friend from death (p. 68, SR4). "

So, as a Free Spirit of force 5, I enter into a friendship pact with these five MORTALS. My life is attached to thier's. Now, unless I pick up Formula Pact and all of them agree to enter into Formula pacts, as well as the Friendship pacts, then as they grow old and die. I too start to die, forced to burn alot of the karma that I sweated to get just to buy back what I loose as my friends die. Nothing to say on the fact that, even if they dont aggree to formula pacts, they are all still sympathetic links to me.

From a the prospective of the spirit, kinda hard to see an upside to this.

The expected remedy to the drawbacks of Friendship Pact seems to be entering in Formula and/or Life Pacts with the same people.

[Starmage21]

The expected remedy to the drawbacks of Friendship Pact seems to be entering in Formula and/or Life Pacts with the same people.

Yeah the Life pact is awesome. I could see the free spirit growing much more quickly than the rest of the group if theres alot of combat in the game, and the other players it's worth the karma expenditure to not die, especially since the free spirit loses nothing.

[Aaron]

True, but don't forget that there are two halves to that pact. Somebody has to spend 1 Karma for 2 boxes of damage. How often would you take that deal?

[Ryu]

I´d say keep edge lowish (PP´s come from initiation), and buy survival for your friends. That way you can "protect" the more expensive magic attribute, and create incentives for your group to give you karma.

[Malicant]

Why is a spirit prohibitet from learning martial arts? (I'm talking about the quality, not specialisation)

[Starmage21]

True, but don't forget that there's two halves to that pact. Somebody has to spend 1 Karma for 2 boxes of damage. How often would you take that deal?

I would definitely take that when the other option is to actually burn an edge point to remain alive. Couple of karma to be insta-healed < 1 point of edge at any value.

[Wanderer]

I would definitely take that when the other option is to actually burn an edge point to remain alive. Couple of karma to be insta-healed < 1 point of edge at any value.

No doubt many runners would share the same attitude IC. Therefore, the Friendship-Formula-Life Pact combo with all the metahuman "friends" seems to be the default strategy for Free Spirit PCs and all components of the symbiotic Pact combo are mutally beneficial for the Free Spirit and its "friends". You only need to pick your "friends" somewhat carefully as them and you are going to be together for a long, long time. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Aaron]

No doubt many runners would share the same attitude IC. Therefore, the Friendship-Formula-Life Pact combo with all the metahuman "friends" seems to be the default strategy for Free Spirit PCs and all components of the symbiotic Pact combo are mutally beneficial for the Free Spirit and its "friends". You only need to pick your "friends" somewhat carefully as them and you are going to be together for a long, long time. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Er ... assuming your GM allows you to take the Spirit Pact quality more than once (I'm not sure if there are any rules stating that one can't take a quality more than once, although some qualities specifically state that the quality in question can be taken more than once, which implies that one normally can't), have you checked the cost of the metahuman side of that arrangement?

[Wanderer]

Er ... assuming your GM allows you to take the Spirit Pact quality more than once (I'm not sure if there are any rules stating that one can't take a quality more than once, although some qualities specifically state that the quality in question can be taken more than once, which implies that one normally can't), have you checked the cost of the metahuman side of that arrangement?

Spirit Pact Quality most definitely can be bought more than once. Cfr. RC, p. 93

Player character free spirits start with one spirit pact.
This is the pact that the spirit “knows,� and is available to
the spirit to make with other characters. The PC free spirit
has the choice of any of the pacts on page 108 of Street
Magic, plus the Friendship Pact, which is detailed below.
A spirit may start the game with a spirit pact in place.
The pact must be with another player character or an NPC
that has close ties to the team. The person with whom the
spirit has the pact must have the Spirit Pact quality (p. 26,
Street Magic).
A spirit character may start knowing one additional
spirit pact by taking the Spirit Pact power, gaining one new
kind of pact each time it is taken.
(...)
A free spirit may start the game with a Friendship Pact
in place with any other eligible and willing player characters.
The people participating in a Friendship Pact with the spirit
do not need the Spirit Pact quality.

As it concerns the Karma bill for the metahumans, they only need to pay for the Formula and Life Pacts, and it gives them immunity to age and a powerful emergency remedy to death.

[Aaron]

Spirit Pact Quality most definitely can be bought more than once. Cfr. RC, p. 93

Sorry, I was talking about the quality for metahumans, from Street Magic.

As it concerns the Karma bill for the metahumans, they only need to pay for the Formula and Life Pacts, and it gives them immunity to age and a powerful emergency remedy to death.

That comes to something on the order of (PC spirit's Edge) x 20, ne? For the record, I'm not saying that it's an insurmountable amount of Karma, I'm just saying that it's a lot.

[Wanderer]

Sorry, I was talking about the quality for metahumans, from Street Magic.

Given that Free Spirits most definitely can enter into multiple Spirit Pacts, provided they know them, denying the same opportunity to metahumans would seem useless self-defeating rules lawyering to me. Assuming that everything not expressely permitted is forbidden is one of the surest recipes for disaster, in gaming or elsewhere. There can never be a rulesystem big enough to cover all situations.

That comes to something on the order of (PC spirit's Edge) x 20, ne? For the record, I'm not saying that it's an insurmountable amount of Karma, I'm just saying that it's a lot.

Actually it's (PC free spirit's Edge) x 5, which is much more reasonable. And Friendship Pact is for free, so you only have to pay for Formula Pact and Life Pact. And nothing says you have to buy them at the same time (since even the Free Spirit PC probably learns them one at a time). Most often runners would enter the Life Spirit first, to ward against violent death, then the Formula Pact, as they feel age creeping upon. It's a worthwhile investment (especially since the only other viable alternative for immortality is to track down an Infected and persuade her to share her Dark Gift).

[Ryu]

Er ... assuming your GM allows you to take the Spirit Pact quality more than once (I'm not sure if there are any rules stating that one can't take a quality more than once, although some qualities specifically state that the quality in question can be taken more than once, which implies that one normally can't), have you checked the cost of the metahuman side of that arrangement?

"A spirit character may start knowing one additional spirit pact by taking the Spirit Pact power, gaining one new kind of pact each time it is taken." Runners Companion, pg.93

[Starmage21]

"A spirit character may start knowing one additional spirit pact by taking the Spirit Pact power, gaining one new kind of pact each time it is taken." Runners Companion, pg.93

You know I forgot about those qualities. It would go a great deal towards the free spirits 250BP cost if it were intended that the pacts made with a PC free spirit do not force the other players to take those qualities.

[Aaron]

Actually it's (PC free spirit's Edge) x 5, which is much more reasonable.

I think that's per pact, and I think that's in BP. I'm fairly certain that the Karma cost of a quality is twice its BP cost (I'm going to guess that the rule for that is on or around p. 265 in your hymnal).

Given that Free Spirits most definitely can enter into multiple Spirit Pacts, provided they know them, denying the same opportunity to metahumans would seem useless self-defeating rules lawyering to me.

I can see where you're coming from. Although, to be fair, the free spirits are using a free spirit power to gain access to their spirit pact(s), while a metahuman is using a quality. I'm pretty sure there are different mechanics for powers and qualities, and that the rules already cover the differences.

In the end, though, it's really about whether you can convince your GM to allow you to do, ne?

"A spirit character may start knowing one additional spirit pact by taking the Spirit Pact power, gaining one new kind of pact each time it is taken." Runners Companion, pg.93

Yeah, Wanderer pointed that out, too. I was talking about the Spirit Pact quality, not the power, which is for metahumans (and other sapients, I imagine) and is found in Street Magic. Sorry about that.

[dionysus]

You know I forgot about those qualities. It would go a great deal towards the free spirits 250BP cost if it were intended that the pacts made with a PC free spirit do not force the other players to take those qualities.

I can't imagine that it would be any other way. I would certainly expect there to be some roleplaying involved: trying to convince the other characters that it was worth it. Might even call for some social tests.