Devs please help us out on the definition of some rules, stops derailing threads and can give us all a clearer answer (i hope) Options

[Tarantula]

I am going to (futilely) try this one last time.

Imagine you are a mage, looking in a room; you know that the room is fulled with toxic gas, and also has several people in the room with environmental suit on. You need the datachip on the desk.

First you cast Powerball. It is a direct combat spell, so every person you can see within the area each gets hit- while the mana is 'erupting from within', you are directing that mana- hence you need LOS.

The guys fall down.

Now, the air is toxic still, you cannot enter the room... so you visualize the entire room (which you are strong enough to affect with your magic) and 'clean' it. You are directing the mana throughout the entire room with the command to remove the toxins so you can enter. It might take a few turns, but afterwards you walk in the room safely and take the datachip.

(To bad there was an invisible mage also in the room that you did not account for, and he manabolted you dead).

Now, if you insist on being so anal that you have to 'see' the toxin... I guess in your games you can only clean really bad, dark toxins. So be it. Logic is clearly lost on you... unless it supports your argument, of course.

Hrm, I see the problem with using a combat spell for an analogy. New situation, new comparative spell

How about this. You are in a dark room, full darkness. You are a human, and you don't have any bio/cyberware that enhances vision. You hear over the speaker that the room is filling with a poisonous gas, and that you'll die soon.


You decide to cast Light (A Environmental Area spell). Do you take a -6 penalty for casting the spell? Why?

[DireRadiant]

You decide to cast Light (A Environmental Area spell). Do you take a -6 penalty for casting the spell? Why?

Interesting one.

If you argue that you do not take the penalty, then the next question is does this only matter in the case of this spell? What about other spells?

If you argue that you do take the penalty, it just seems annoying that you do for this particular spell.

Some interesting takes on this though.
If you do take the penalty, it's a matter of casting Light, using it's penalty offset to make casting the next Light spell easier. Doesn't matter that much out of combat, and in that case it's a matter of casting time and drain. There's also the alternative of perceiving astrally in order to cast the spell, which takes the time to switch perceptions, but otherwise incurs at the very most a -2 penalty.

As a matter of argument, someone could claim that they are casting Light inside their own eyes(Hey they can see the inside of their eyeballs right?), then moving the mobile point to where ever they need it to be.

Some interesting thought experiments to ensue no doubt. I see entire research teams at MITM and other places dedicated to solving this specific question.

[Tarantula]

Yes, thats another very good one. Can you astrally perceive air?

[Kurious]

You decide to cast Light (A Environmental Area spell). Do you take a -6 penalty for casting the spell? Why?

Casting on the darkness!! ...damn, where is magic missile when I need it? (hehe)


But seriously, in the case of light, what is your target?

The darkness.

You get a -6 penalty to see things in the darkness, but there is no penalty to simply 'see the darkness'.

IMHO: You would cast the spell without penalty, and each success would reduce visibility penalties one for one.

(Edit: Since light is a mobile point of light... I guess you could easily cast it in front of you and move it into the darkness as well, so long as it remains sustained).

As for astrally perceiving air... ummm, I don't think air is 'living' per se, so no.

[DireRadiant]

(Light is an area spell though, so no casting it in front of you and sending it into the darkness).

p. 203

"This spell creates a mobile point of light, illuminating
a radius around it equal to the spell’s Force in meters."

So why not?

[DireRadiant]

As for astrally perceiving air... ummm, I don't think air is 'living' per se, so no.

Astral Sense is not sight. It might be better at detecting air because the sense will detect the presence of a gas versus vacuum. Living things have an extra aura to Astral Perception, but that doesn't' mean dead things don't show up astrally.

[Kurious]

You caught me before my edit. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/embarrassed.gif)

It is a mobile point of light, I see no reason why you couldn't just cast it in front of you and send it in a room first.

[Kurious]

Astral Sense is not sight. It might be better at detecting air because the sense will detect the presence of a gas versus vacuum. Living things have an extra aura to Astral Perception, but that doesn't' mean dead things don't show up astrally.

I would think that would make things very convoluted though. When you astrally perceive under those guidelines you would not see anything (well) because everything is covered by some sort of aura or haze. Pollution for example when you are in the city would make astral perceiving all but worthless IMHO.

[Tarantula]

Casting on the darkness!! ...damn, where is magic missile when I need it? (hehe)


But seriously, in the case of light, what is your target?

The darkness.

You get a -6 penalty to see things in the darkness, but there is no penalty to simply 'see the darkness'.

IMHO: You would cast the spell without penalty, and each success would reduce visibility penalties one for one.

(Edit: Since light is a mobile point of light... I guess you could easily cast it in front of you and move it into the darkness as well, so long as it remains sustained).

As for astrally perceiving air... ummm, I don't think air is 'living' per se, so no.

In my situation I gave, you woke up in this completely dark room. Now, since you said you could cast light with no penalty, you could instead cast Clean Air for no penalty as well right?

[DireRadiant]

In my situation I gave, you woke up in this completely dark room. Now, since you said you could cast light with no penalty, you could instead cast Clean Air for no penalty as well right?

Shh, down that path leads darkness. Next you'll be pointing out that this would also mean that you cold cast Mob Mind with no penalty. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Steampunk]

Mind throwing out a quote? I never caught this tidbit before.

Yes, a quote would be nice. My understanding was, that every astral shadow is opaque, meaning that you can't see through glass, etc. on the astral...

[DireRadiant]

You are affecting the environment of an area. The LOS is the area which you are targeting. So, you target the room- designating the area that you can see- and command the spell to 'cleanse the air' in said area.

Not rocket science here buddy.

p. 173 SR4
"Area Spells: Some spells target areas or points in space; in
this case the caster must be able to see the center of the area affected."

[Kurious]

Dark room for casting clean:air.

IMHO: You are targeting the room which you stand, you therefore have to be able to define the rooms dimension via LOS- you would get the -6.

[Kurious]

p. 173 SR4
"Area Spells: Some spells target areas or points in space; in
this case the caster must be able to see the center of the area affected."

Would it make more sense to you if I said:

You are affecting the environment of an area. The LOS is the center of the area which you are targeting. So, you target the center of the room- designating the area that you can see- and command the spell to 'cleanse the air' in said area.

??

[Wesley Street]

Can you astrally perceive air?

As it's been written, probably not. Though the planet Earth itself is astrally "alive" (which is what prevents mages from simply zipping through the Earth from Seattle to China) air is only the gaseous shell that surrounds it. If air could be astrally perceived that would mean air itself was alive and mages would be unable to pass through it.

[Tarantula]

p. 173 SR4
"Area Spells: Some spells target areas or points in space; in
this case the caster must be able to see the center of the area affected."

Dark room for casting clean:air.

IMHO: You are targeting the room which you stand, you therefore have to be able to define the rooms dimension via LOS- you would get the -6.

But you said you could cast light without penalty. They both target the same thing. The "area"/"environment".

Would it make more sense to you if I said:

You are affecting the environment of an area. The LOS is the center of the area which you are targeting. So, you target the center of the room- designating the area that you can see- and command the spell to 'cleanse the air' in said area.

No, it wouldn't. Because light, which functions the EXACT same way, you said would not have a penalty.

They are the same, either they both have a penalty (how I'd rule it) or they don't.

[Kurious]

Dark room for casting clean:air.

IMHO: You are targeting the room which you stand, you therefore have to be able to define the rooms dimension via LOS- you would get the -6.

But you said you could cast light without penalty. They both target the same thing. The "area"/"environment".

You are affecting the environment of an area. The LOS is the center of the area which you are targeting. So, you target the center of the room- designating the area that you can see- and command the spell to 'cleanse the air' in said area.

No, it wouldn't. Because light, which functions the EXACT same way, you said would not have a penalty.

They are the same, either they both have a penalty (how I'd rule it) or they don't.

No it doesn't.

Did you read why you could cast on the darkness?

Seriously, if you are going to debate, PAY ATTENTION!

When casting light in a dark room, you are not looking through the darkness, you are looking at it. The penalty comes from looking through the darkness.

So, you cast light on darkness, you can see (read:identify) that darkness just fine, no penalty to the spell.

If you are in a dark room casting clean: air, you are targeting the center of the room itself, and if that room is dark you suffer the appropriate penalties.

[Muspellsheimr]

Dark room for casting clean:air.

IMHO: You are targeting the room which you stand, you therefore have to be able to define the rooms dimension via LOS- you would get the -6.

You do not need to see the area to be affected, or define what area is to be affected. You only need to see the center of that area. So in the case of an entirely dark room, yes, you receive a -6. But if there is a point in the room that you can see without penalty, then you could affect the entire room (with high enough Force) without seeing the walls, or really any other part of the room.

[Kurious]

Well said Muspellsheimr.

[Tarantula]

No it doesn't.

Did you read why you could cast on the darkness?

Seriously, if you are going to debate, PAY ATTENTION!

When casting light in a dark room, you are not looking through the darkness, you are looking at it. The penalty comes from looking through the darkness.

So, you cast light on darkness, you can see (read:identify) that darkness just fine, no penalty to the spell.

If you are in a dark room casting clean: air, you are targeting the room itself, therefore you are trying to perceive through the darkness and take a penalty.

p. 173 SR4
"Area Spells: Some spells target areas or points in space; in this case the caster must be able to see the center of the area affected."
They are both area spells. They both target the area of the room. They both will have the same penalty.

I think Mush is in agreement with me that they would both suffer a -6 penalty in the situation I described.

[Kurious]

Please explain why you are 'viewing through the darkness' to ... see darkness?

If you want to target a specific spot in the room, like in front of someones face... then I agree- you get the -6 because you are finding an area specifically in the darkness. But if you are just casting in the darkness... what sense does that make?

[Tarantula]

Then Clean Air would not have a penalty either for targetting that same area.

[Wasabi]

In reality the mage would only have to pull out his commlink and have the backlighting to target inches in front of him.

[Kurious]

Your not targeting darkness with clean air. You are looking through the darkness to a center point (like if you wanted to cast light in front of a persons face).

Either way, it is good that you got past the silliness that you need to 'see air' to cast that spell... I feel we are making progress)

[Tarantula]

Your not targeting darkness with clean air. You are looking through the darkness to a center point (like if you wanted to cast light in front of a persons face).

Either way, it is good that you got past the silliness that you need to 'see air' to cast that spell... I feel we are making progress)

You don't target Air with Clean Air, you target the area. I've accepted that.
You are not targetting darkness with light either. You target the area. They both would take the -6 penalty.

And Wasabi? Assume they took all your gear, but didn't realize you were a mage. You got knocked out during a run, and this is where you woke up.