What's the deal with 4th Edition spirits?!? Options

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

So how would a two-sentence description have helped you? We did what we could with the word count we had available, balancing trying to provide a general idea of the tradition as well as trying to present a number of different traditions. I think they do a good job of presenting the basic idea of what the tradition is about, which is the goal. Because, honestly, when you start getting into the deep details of a magical tradition, they will vary from one practitioner to the next, so it's either useless or overly constrictive to get into that sort of detail in a rule book.

Besides, If you want more flaver, these differences can also be modeled on Magical Initiation Groups for more in-depth coverage...
Seems to be an easy fix to me... Besides, I like that kind of thing myself, as it lets me integrate those "tradition" that I care about into the story on a more personal scale...

My Two Cents

[Shinobi Killfist]

I would prefer to have less to describe the flavor. After all, I have access to wikipedia if I want real world data.

Mechanical differences were more interesting to me, as they would be unique and important for the game.

The mechanical difference in previous versions of SR added more fluff to the traditions than 20 pages of fluff would have in 4e. I don't even know why they bothered to enter any traditions.

They could of just put:

Insert Real world religion here.
Insert Drain Stat here,
Insert Spirit
Here
Here
Here
Here
And Here.

And this would have been just as informative and had about the same amount of fluff as the current street magic layout.

[Cain]

I prefer the "less is more" approach. Fewer traditions, in greater detail. I mean, you're trying to overview an entire religion in two paragraphs!

I like the suggestion that the Initiation group writeups would have been a better template. SM goes into more detail on those groups than it does any tradition, including Hermeticism and Shamanism.

[Zurai]

And this would have been just as informative and had about the same amount of fluff as the current street magic layout.

I disagree. I know absolutely nothing about Zoroastrianism (outside of the historical perspective). The paragraphs in Street Magic give me enough of an idea of what the tradition is about to know whether it's something I might want to build a character around. If I didn't have those paragraphs, I'd have no idea what the actual practices of Zoroastrianism are, and I'd be forced to do research to determine if it was even an idea I wanted to pursue. That's silly. The current amount of information provides a good balance between doing it for you and not wasting dozens and dozens of pages on fluff.

[Synner]

Magic in the Shadows opted to introduce detailed mechanics for three different traditions (Path of the Wheel, Voodoo, and Wuxing) and reduce the remaining traditions to three sentence descriptions (that basically shoehorned the remaining magical traditions of the world into the 2 "dominant" traditions of Shamanism and Hermeticism). This was slightly at odds with the diversity of magical expressions and the metaphysics of Sixth World magic where belief does define the forms thaumaturgy takes (as exemplified by the magic of insane and insect shamans in Magic in the Shadows). Please, pick up Magic in the Shadows and try the flavor text for an Islamic or a Shintoist magician on for size. Or a Wiccan.

With SR4 there was a conscious decision to acknowledge and empower the diversity of magical beliefs and practices around the Sixth World (as well as introduce a system that allowed GMs and players to customize their own "ideal" traditions if they wanted) - this is also in tune with the intent to take the game to a more global level. This also meant streamlining the underlying mechanics so all traditions were (relatively) balanced. Obviously, many people preferred the mechanical differences the pre-SR4 traditions brought to gameplay and added diversity to the game mechanics - that's fine. We believed, however, that the mechanical differences were unnecessary complications and in many cases unbalanced play (ie.there were obvious mechanical advantages to taking Shamanism vs. Voodoo for instance, and Wuxing had many of the functional tropes of Shamanism with more versatile spirits). We thought and stll do that ultimately those functional differences could be (re)produced with fluff and roleplaying through the different paradigms, the rites and tropes, and (to return to the topic of this thread) the different individual take on spirits.

When we got to Street Magic there was never any question of whether we should provide 2 sentence blurbs or provide a two or three paragraphs that condensed the core paradigm, practices and beliefs of a representative sample of the most well-established Sixth World traditions. In fact, if you compare the actual fluff text about the beliefs of the three detailed traditions in Magic in the Shadows (as opposed to the drawn out mechanics), Street Magic contains most if not all the relevant fluff, minus embelishing fiction. Though I would have liked to have had the space Awakenings or Grimoire 2 assigned to fluff, this simply wasn't feasible - that's not to say you won't be seeing something like that in the future.

For the record we are very satisfied with the results; Shadowrun 4 presents a setting where the action is a lot more global in scope and a significant number of players are using non-Hermetic and non-Shamanic magicians (though those two remain dominant) and this is as it should be in a globalized society.

[BlueMax]

For the record we are very satisfied with the results; Shadowrun 4 presents a setting where the action is a lot more global in scope and a significant number of players are using non-Hermetic and non-Shamanic magicians (though those two remain dominant) and this is as it should be in a globalized society.

If ever a message was written in the front of the books for old timers coming back to the game, its mixed in above. The game is no longer focused on North America.

Good, bad, indifferent, many changes occur due to the wider scope.

[paws2sky]

If ever a message was written in the front of the books for old timers coming back to the game, its mixed in above. The game is no longer focused on North America.

Good, bad, indifferent, many changes occur due to the wider scope.

Agreed.

As much as I love the Seattle setting (and have grown to enjoy Denver too), Shadowrun really needed a more global perspective.

While I would have liked to see a whole page dedicated to each of the SM traditions, I'm okay with what they came up with. Its just enough information to wet my appetite and make me want to do a little research on the side.

And the fact that there aren't pages upon pages of funky rules on particular traditions is a plus, for me. That's one of the reasons I strongly steered people away from Voodoo in the past.

-paws

[Snow_Fox]

This was one of the parts of 4th ed I truly liked. the spirit/elements/conjuring rules for the first 3eds were so technical and even contradictory that it was a muddle. This really cut it down nicley to believable leveles. I mean a mage believes she has used her will to shape the basic element of the area, and the shaman says she has spoken to the true sense of the place, but what they have functions the same, it's just they view it differently.
like to you want the squid or the calamari? red sauce or marinara? spegetti or noodles?

[Tyro]

I really love how Shadowrun handles magic. Drain, traditions, geasa, spirits, Adepts, the whole bit. Insect and toxic shamans were a stroke of genius. Small details (like the pricing of certain Adept powers) are a small price to pay for dumping Vancian magic into a singularity with a satisfactory flushing sound.

I liked how Street Magic handled things, including length of descriptions. That book is soley responsible for getting me interested (academically, not spiritually) in Zoroastrianism. Some of the spirit choices are a bit unbalanced, and it does feature a bit of power creep, but I can live with that.

[Shinobi Killfist]

Magic in the Shadows opted to introduce detailed mechanics for three different traditions (Path of the Wheel, Voodoo, and Wuxing) and reduce the remaining traditions to three sentence descriptions (that basically shoehorned the remaining magical traditions of the world into the 2 "dominant" traditions of Shamanism and Hermeticism). This was slightly at odds with the diversity of magical expressions and the metaphysics of Sixth World magic where belief does define the forms thaumaturgy takes (as exemplified by the magic of insane and insect shamans in Magic in the Shadows). Please, pick up Magic in the Shadows and try the flavor text for an Islamic or a Shintoist magician on for size. Or a Wiccan.

With SR4 there was a conscious decision to acknowledge and empower the diversity of magical beliefs and practices around the Sixth World (as well as introduce a system that allowed GMs and players to customize their own "ideal" traditions if they wanted) - this is also in tune with the intent to take the game to a more global level. This also meant streamlining the underlying mechanics so all traditions were (relatively) balanced. Obviously, many people preferred the mechanical differences the pre-SR4 traditions brought to gameplay and added diversity to the game mechanics - that's fine. We believed, however, that the mechanical differences were unnecessary complications and in many cases unbalanced play (ie.there were obvious mechanical advantages to taking Shamanism vs. Voodoo for instance, and Wuxing had many of the functional tropes of Shamanism with more versatile spirits). We thought and stll do that ultimately those functional differences could be (re)produced with fluff and roleplaying through the different paradigms, the rites and tropes, and (to return to the topic of this thread) the different individual take on spirits.

When we got to Street Magic there was never any question of whether we should provide 2 sentence blurbs or provide a two or three paragraphs that condensed the core paradigm, practices and beliefs of a representative sample of the most well-established Sixth World traditions. In fact, if you compare the actual fluff text about the beliefs of the three detailed traditions in Magic in the Shadows (as opposed to the drawn out mechanics), Street Magic contains most if not all the relevant fluff, minus embelishing fiction. Though I would have liked to have had the space Awakenings or Grimoire 2 assigned to fluff, this simply wasn't feasible - that's not to say you won't be seeing something like that in the future.

For the record we are very satisfied with the results; Shadowrun 4 presents a setting where the action is a lot more global in scope and a significant number of players are using non-Hermetic and non-Shamanic magicians (though those two remain dominant) and this is as it should be in a globalized society.

You made every tradition the same and slapped a different name plate on the door. How does everything is the same empower other traditions? Sure in 3e and previous there were basically 2 traditions with different name plates thrown on the door for all the other traditions, but now there is only one tradition. Roleplaying it out only takes you so far, it does not hide that mechanically they are all identical.

[Zurai]

You made every tradition the same and slapped a different name plate on the door. How does everything is the same empower other traditions? Sure in 3e and previous there were basically 2 traditions with different name plates thrown on the door for all the other traditions, but now there is only one tradition. Roleplaying it out only takes you so far, it does not hide that mechanically they are all identical.

At the very least, Materialization Traditions and Possession Traditions are extremely different in practice, which is as much diversity as there has ever been. And that's if you only take the absolute most obtuse view possible.

[Shinobi Killfist]

I disagree. I know absolutely nothing about Zoroastrianism (outside of the historical perspective). The paragraphs in Street Magic give me enough of an idea of what the tradition is about to know whether it's something I might want to build a character around. If I didn't have those paragraphs, I'd have no idea what the actual practices of Zoroastrianism are, and I'd be forced to do research to determine if it was even an idea I wanted to pursue. That's silly. The current amount of information provides a good balance between doing it for you and not wasting dozens and dozens of pages on fluff.

End of the day you are mage who uses logic for a drain stat and summons Fire, Air, Earth, Guardian, and Man spirits. Its all the same, you can act differently but really the differences are small. Before there were at least two traditions now there is one with basically roleplaying totem like differences.

Summer Dress Tradition
Basic Concept: Women are totally hot in Summer Dresses and they should wear them more often.
Spirits:
Man
Guidance
Air
Water
Earth
drain Stats: Intuition+Willpower.
Description:
Mages of this tradition see themselves as a type of artist. They want to move the world toward a higher plane of female fashion the Summer Dress. Fashion Designers of a peculiar bent, they never the less have there fan base. This is largely due to the known fact that women look sexy as hell in a Summer Dress. The practice of magic is an expression of the art form they hold close to there soul.
Steeped in a mixture of hippie symbolism and over the top fashion designer attitude it comes across as a free form magic system with attitude.
Summer Dress magic is the art of forcing your world vision on others in away that lets them see to true path. Appropriate mentor spirits are Seductress or Sun. The spirits summoned are seen as parts of nature or fashion appropriate individuals. Water spirits are the essence of a beach on a summer day, Air spirits a cool breeze, earth spirits may come forth in a way that symbolizes are lush garden, while guidance spirits may appear as fashion designers from a bygone age spirits of man as the embodiment of what mankind should be appear as women in summer dresses.
Summer Dress is a minor tradition found throughout the world. The Tradition finds its roots in the Fashion Designer Luc Masson a designer born in the 20th century.

Now other than the fact I'd roleplay this character a bit differently how is this type of amge different in any significant way to a Zoroastrian? Is the difference any larger to how a follower of the Dark King would act compared to a follower of a Sun mentor spirit? We are basically down to one mage with just different totem options now.

[Shinobi Killfist]

At the very least, Materialization Traditions and Possession Traditions are extremely different in practice, which is as much diversity as there has ever been. And that's if you only take the absolute most obtuse view possible.

I'll give you that possession is different. But there were possession traditions in 3e as well. So main book we dropped from 2 to 1 tradition, in street magic it went form 3 to 2. And I don't consider it an obtuse view I consider it not a not covering my eyes and ignoring what's actually in front of me viewpoint.

[GreyBrother]

The difference is that i know no GM who would allow that Summer Dress Tradition. It's idiotic and lacks any real life reference nor a proper concept.

A real Tradition is a bit more, there's a concept behind about what magic is, how spirits are handled and those nifty things to roleplay about. I think that's enough difference but i can understand the want for differences in the rules system.
But it isn't really necessary in my opinion.

[Shinobi Killfist]

The difference is that i know no GM who would allow that Tradition.

Your prejudice against Summer Dresses is duly noted. You will be converted to the true path one day.

[GreyBrother]

Sorry. I am already occupied with several true paths to bother. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Your prejudice against Summer Dresses is duly noted. You will be converted to the true path one day.

Are you Kidding Me?

Here is a real world parallel... What is the intrinsic difference between the mainstream Christian religions?... They have mostly the same beliefs, and yet, they are COMPLETELY different. Dogma, Rituals, Beliefs that have been formed over the last several thousand years... all from a very basic core concept...

Traditions in SR4 are no different in this regard... they all have a very core concept (Magical belief and ability) that is cast through a VERY different lens through Dogma, Ritual, Beliefs that have been formed over at the least decades, and in some cases over several thousand years or more...

There is an almost unlimited number of variant religious beliefs and dogmas that have been generated since mankind began to worship the things around him... why should the Magical Traditions be any different?

It will ALWAYS come down to the world View of the various Beliefs and Traditions... a ROLEPLAYING aspect rather than a mechanical aspect... the mechanics of belief are just that ... Belief...
Every thing esle is just one flavor or another...

My Two Cents

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Sorry. I am already occupied with several true paths to bother. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Well Said...

[Zurai]

End of the day you are mage who uses logic for a drain stat and summons Fire, Air, Earth, Guardian, and Man spirits. Its all the same, you can act differently but really the differences are small. Before there were at least two traditions now there is one with basically roleplaying totem like differences.

I disagree completely. You cannot ignore roleplay differences in a roleplaying game. A Zoroastrian will treat magic, spirits, the metaplanes, and life in general dramatically different from a houngan or a Shinto Priest. No, there's not much rule support for it (though there's more than you state), but rules aren't everything, and frankly forcing every tradition to be mechanically different is a bad, bad way to go. Why?

Because GMs would be forced to either memorize all the various traditions or ban them.
Because they would take up vastly more room in the rulebooks that could be used for other rules.
Because as you add more different rules you for the same rules space (traditions), the difficulty of keeping them all balanced with each other increases exponentially.
Because there's no reason to make specific mechanical rules when good roleplaying sense covers the differences just as well without causing any other problems. If your players don't have good roleplaying sense, then different rules aren't going to make the game any more fun anyway.

I could go on, if needed.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

I disagree completely. You cannot ignore roleplay differences in a roleplaying game. A Zoroastrian will treat magic, spirits, the metaplanes, and life in general dramatically different from a houngan or a Shinto Priest. No, there's not much rule support for it (though there's more than you state), but rules aren't everything, and frankly forcing every tradition to be mechanically different is a bad, bad way to go. Why?

Because GMs would be forced to either memorize all the various traditions or ban them.
Because they would take up vastly more room in the rulebooks that could be used for other rules.
Because as you add more different rules you for the same rules space (traditions), the difficulty of keeping them all balanced with each other increases exponentially.
Because there's no reason to make specific mechanical rules when good roleplaying sense covers the differences just as well without causing any other problems. If your players don't have good roleplaying sense, then different rules aren't going to make the game any more fun anyway.

I could go on, if needed.

Well Said...

[Heath Robinson]

Now other than the fact I'd roleplay this character a bit differently how is this type of amge different in any significant way to a Zoroastrian? Is the difference any larger to how a follower of the Dark King would act compared to a follower of a Sun mentor spirit? We are basically down to one mage with just different totem options now.

Zoroastrians take different Geasa. OH SHI-!

[Draco18s]

Zoroastrians take different Geasa. OH SHI-!

I mean, if you want to differentiate them in your game, find about 10 BP worth of gease for each one. Player starts with that geas when he takes his Magician quality.

[Dream79]

You made every tradition the same and slapped a different name plate on the door. How does everything is the same empower other traditions? Sure in 3e and previous there were basically 2 traditions with different name plates thrown on the door for all the other traditions, but now there is only one tradition. Roleplaying it out only takes you so far, it does not hide that mechanically they are all identical.

More or less that's how it is. Although there may be a number of differing traditions and theologies that are based on differing views of the nature of the universe, but in reality (shadowrun reality anyhow) there's only one universe and one 'magic' even though differing cultures have varying views.

From a rules standpoint it also makes more sense to have two very generalized mechanics that allows the players to handle there traditions at the level they are comfortable with. In some cases a player may not desire to get to in depth into a tradition while SR 3's traditions may not have reflected the players knowledge of a tradition adequately enough.

[Tyro]

Spirit choice can heavily influence style of play. Someone with access to spirits of Man, for example, will likely not sustain spells themselves - they'll summon a SoM with the ability to cast the spell, and tell it to sustain. Someone with Plant or Guardian spirits doesn't really need counterspelling for most situations (Magic Guard). And so on.

Also, Logic vs. Intuition vs. Charisma: Logic can be enhanced with cyber, Charisma can take advantage of Elven racial bonuses, and Intuition is an initiative stat and is linked to Perception. This will heavily influence how a magician character is built.

[Demonseed Elite]

The funny thing about Shadowrun is that the earlier editions of Shadowrun explained the universality of magic repeatedly, but contradicted it mechanically. Let's take some examples from Awakenings:

At its base, all magic is the same. (Plenty of mages and shamans reading this are going to scream at me for saying that, but all the yelling in the world doesn't change the truth.) Magic is ultimately a universal force, and certain things about it are true for every kind of magician everywhere in the world. Magic is as universal an art as painting or writing and as universal a science as psychology.

Are there different kinds of magic?
Magic is a universal force that works essentially the same anywhere, so the answer to this question is no--there is only one kind of magic. However, there are many different kinds of magicians. Although magic itself does not vary, different people practice magic in different ways, just as different musicians may create different music with the same type of instrument.

And from Magic in the Shadows:

The Sixth World has hundreds of magical traditions, but at its most basic level all Shadowrun magic is the same. All magicians use the same Magical Skills. A Fireball spell cast by a Native American shaman is the same in game terms as one cast by an urban street mage, a Celtic druid, or a Taoist sorcerer, even though the appearance of the spell and the rituals used to cast it may differ.

That's been the funny thing about magic in Shadowrun's earlier editions. It explained itself as a universal but then presented itself as non-universal mechanically. And as the Shadowrun setting grew out of the borders of Seattle and included traditions beyond plain vanilla Hermeticism and Native American Shamanism, it began to really show its mechanical limitations.