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[Ayeohx]

Since my campaign takes place in Seattle the nuyen is our primary currency. Unfortunately I have very little information on how the currency works.

Here's what I know:

1. Nuyen has digital signatures. (pg 124 Sprawl Survival Guide)
2. "The only way to counterfeit nuyen is to copy an existing certified credstick." (Forgery rules, pg 95 Unwired)

Here's what I need to know:

1. What media can nuyen be stored on? Banks and credsticks only or anything which has memory.
2. If you can store nuyen on anything, say an optical chip or a commlink, why would you specifically need a certified credstick for forgeries?
3. If nuyen can be stored on any storage media then how is nuyen stored? One file per nuyen?
4. Is every single nuyen tracked and by whom?
5. If I steal "Nuyen A" from Bank #1 can I deposit it in Bank #2? Or is that nuyen somehow flagged as stolen?
6. Similar to the above, say I hold up a fellow and transfer his money to a certified credstick. If he reports that money as stolen, is the nuyen flagged as stolen?
7. If nuyen can be flagged as stolen what stops people (Mr J) from paying people and they saying that money was stolen? And professionalism isn't enough; half the time they try to kill you.
8. Can you move nuyen from a bank account to credsticks or can this only be done by the bank that issues the credstick? The reason that I ask this is banks use to charge (and possibly still do) charge fees for certified credsticks equal to 10% of what went on the credsticks.

I know I'm missing a few questions but this is a good starting place. Please leave references for your post if at all possible. The more facts the better.

[BlueMax]

For a start, all the Megas accept Nuyen. It is probably in the contracts they sign when they become members of the CC (and you have to accept that they sign contracts when they become members). The Megas are people you can buy pretty much any product on the planet from. You can use Nuyen, therefore, to satisfy almost every need that exists. If that isn't enough to support the Nuyen in your opinion, then no mere Government is.

If the most powerful economic, political and social entities in the game world aren't enough to float a currency then I wonder if we're playing the same game at all. What fiat is stronger than massive transglobal corporations that manipulate entire continents? Am I to believe a body that is constrained to a powerbase with an area less than the size of the Chinese Empire at its height is more powerful?

The Corporate Court could amass great power. Could. The problem is that it operates like the UN, very little gets done. Also, said contracts are not that well enforced from my understanding, nor do these contracts cover any depth. What body enforces the will of the CC over my attempted expenditure of Nuyen? How do engage a corporation in related litagation? Nothing and I don't. Even if corp #1 were to bring the issue up, if corps 2,7,8,9 don't care nothing happens.

Acceptance is only a small portion of what I would need in a Fiat Currency. Value is what I would need most of all. Who signs (prints) nuyen? Is it a fixed currency?

This is all under the assumption the Corporate Court values the Nuyen and would like to see it flourish. As for playing the same game, I think it hinges on whether or not we see the CC wanting to empower currency. I don't think they would. From my POV, the CC isn't out to create a better world. I don't want CC as a World Government, a powerful cabal sure, but not a government.

If the Nuyen is backed by Japan, meh. Ill take cogerand first.


BlueMax

BlueMax

[Ancient History]

I'm just going to restate that many of these questions have answers in the upcoming Corp Guide.

[Cthulhudreams]

Cool thanks. I found the entire essay here if anyone else is interested.

Be aware that he has since gone back on all those positions and has stated that a gold standard would have no advantages 3 years ago as opposed to 40 years and a noble prize ago.

As for the topic: Yes, as governments are less stable than a house of fricking cards, a gold backed currency makes sense in shadowrun. However, there is a further problem - a backed currency as opposed to actual coins requires someone you can trust to hold the gold.

But there is no-one to trust in shadowrun as everyone is literally allergic to transparency.

So a gold backed currency is completely infesible for the same reason a fiat currency is. So either you have to go back to handing gold coins around - which won't work - or a fiat currency would make sense, and it has to be backed by the corporate court. Intrestingly, that means the court itself has to have sizeable reserves, and also regularly demand payment (for something) in nuyens. Probably by taxing its members or something.

[BlueMax]

I'm just going to restate that many of these questions have answers in the upcoming Corp Guide.

Kool. This is actually a topic of discussion at our table, and its why I may be a bit too active here.
We don't spend game time on it but as we eat and chat, some of us love to debate Fantasy monetary policy. BTW one of the most brilliant at the table agrees with Heath, in that the Corps(through their banks) would support a fiat currency. He and I go at it all the time.

Sorry.

BlueMax
/doesn't want to hear about glorious future books
// wants to hold them.
/// especially a critters book. really really want.

[hobgoblin]

So a gold backed currency is completely infesible for the same reason a fiat currency is. So either you have to go back to handing gold coins around - which won't work - or a fiat currency would make sense, and it has to be backed by the corporate court. Intrestingly, that means the court itself has to have sizeable reserves, and also regularly demand payment (for something) in nuyens. Probably by taxing its members or something.

maybe they have a share in the big corps, and take it out as dividends?

[Nath]

Friedrich Hayek and Murray Rothbard would be the guys to read at this point, rather than Greenspan (well, if you take a look at Rothbard's work, the so-called anarcho-capitalism, the Corporate Court should enforce his birthday as a holiday all over the world). Free banking theory precisely claims states monopoly over currency issue is a Bad Thing.

[Heath Robinson]

Acceptance is only a small portion of what I would need in a Fiat Currency. Value is what I would need most of all. Who signs (prints) nuyen? Is it a fixed currency?

This is all under the assumption the Corporate Court values the Nuyen and would like to see it flourish. As for playing the same game, I think it hinges on whether or not we see the CC wanting to empower currency. I don't think they would. From my POV, the CC isn't out to create a better world. I don't want CC as a World Government, a powerful cabal sure, but not a government.

Acceptance is value. You can use Nuyen to purchase some fraction of the wealth of every megacorp and that wealth is growing. More importantly (because Megas have an incentive to offer goods in your local currency if it nets them more profit) you can use your Nuyen anywhere in the world without needing to care about what the exchange rates are. If you go to sleep in Seattle and wake up in Brussels you can still use your Nuyen without exchange.

Even if the Megas take your cash in the local currency they're going to exchange some of it for Nuyen at some point because they want to use it to buy goods and services from a foreign corporation, or another division (if the Mega requires internal trade to be in Nuyen). If it's public that the Megas operate in Nuyen then people will buy into Nuyen expecting the value of the Nuyen to increase relative to local currencies over time. That increases the value of holding Nuyen because people want to hold it for future exchange back into local currencies at a higher value.

As for who prosecutes breaches of contract? That's like the Religious Right's inability to understand how you can derive laws and standards from the expectation of reciprocity. There are only ten Megas and if none of the other Megas are willing to give you the time of day then something like 75% or more of your trade is gone. You live and die on the good will of your peers. You do not breach the contract unless more than half the others do it.

[hobgoblin]

Friedrich Hayek and Murray Rothbard would be the guys to read at this point, rather than Greenspan (well, if you take a look at Rothbard's work, the so-called anarcho-capitalism, the Corporate Court should enforce his birthday as a holiday all over the world). Free banking theory precisely claims states monopoly over currency issue is a Bad Thing.

sounds a bit like what i understood USA had until the federal reserve got created to deal with some issues with the individual private banks...

[BlueMax]

Acceptance is value. You can use Nuyen to purchase some fraction of the wealth of every megacorp and that wealth is growing. More importantly (because Megas have an incentive to offer goods in your local currency if it nets them more profit) you can use your Nuyen anywhere in the world without needing to care about what the exchange rates are. If you go to sleep in Seattle and wake up in Brussels you can still use your Nuyen without exchange.

Even if the Megas take your cash in the local currency they're going to exchange some of it for Nuyen at some point because they want to use it to buy goods and services from a foreign corporation, or another division (if the Mega requires internal trade to be in Nuyen). If it's public that the Megas operate in Nuyen then people will buy into Nuyen expecting the value of the Nuyen to increase relative to local currencies over time. That increases the value of holding Nuyen because people want to hold it for future exchange back into local currencies at a higher value.

As for who prosecutes breaches of contract? That's like the Religious Right's inability to understand how you can derive laws and standards from the expectation of reciprocity. There are only ten Megas and if none of the other Megas are willing to give you the time of day then something like 75% or more of your trade is gone. You live and die on the good will of your peers. You do not breach the contract unless more than half the others do it.

This is fairly close to the argument given in my garage by my opposition. The argument holds valid if the assumptions are accurate. While not listed, and dear god this isnt a challenge to list them, odds are our assumptions differ.

<declaration of how I view the world, not commandment on how anyone else should. These are my assumptions>
I always imagine Megacorps as feudal kingdoms. Internal trade uses corp scrip and this is required for management purposes. Between fiefdoms, errr corporations, its a hell of a lot easier to trade with monetary unit. I get monetary units, they make things easy. However, divisions, subsidiaries and so on , would be guided to make real gains: materials, real estate, and slalves^H^H^H^H^H^H populace, and not to garner nuyen. Fiat currency does not have any inherent value.
</dedclaration>

<grey area>
Your statement regarding the goodwill of peers is something with which I disagree. If it were toned down to prosper or suffer, maybe. If this is a world where you can take land and resources by force without the rest of the world doing anything about it, a corporation can expand by ill will. As long as they don't piss off too many at once, or as long as they play the political game well, there is nothing to stop them. I assume with all the takeovers, Shadowrun is a dynamic world and not a regulated world. Even socio-economic pressure. Or at least I hope it still open to radical change and adventure
</grey area>

I know my assumptions are already wrong for Fourth Edition. Four Edition presents a market with liquidity, which would not exist in the above. But the current state does not present a combination of Megacorps and fiscal governance that would create such a market. While not eagerly, I do await the explanations in the upcoming book Ancient History mentioned.

BlueMax

[Ancient History]

Don't await it too eagerly, it was written by the same freelancer that though Wuxbux were a great idea once upon a time.

[Cthulhudreams]

maybe they have a share in the big corps, and take it out as dividends?

That would definitely work. It would also introduce a huge 'share price bump' when a megacorp becomes a CC member as the corp or the CC tries to buy enough shares in it to be compliant. Conversely, that may not be enough money, so maybe it levies it on ecveryone. beats me.

[hobgoblin]

or the shares could be a payment/gift so to get a seat, or something...

[Cthulhudreams]

Yeah, but as the CC doesn't own its own shares, that it would need to buy them from other people as I said.

I guess as you point out they could also issue shares, resulting in a massive share price collapse, but either works. Maybe all mega corps are legally bound to issue all dividends in nuyen. Or something. God knows.

[Heath Robinson]

You're forgetting that corps can just issue new shares and hand them out to people.

The share price would increase when rumours of a corp becoming a member of the CC went around, primarily because it's a good thing for the long term profitability of that corp. Since expectations of future dividends have increased so too will the share price as people bid up the price on shares.

[Nath]

When a megacorporation becomes a Corporate Court member, it gets one single share in the Zurich-Orbital Gemeinshaft Bank (so, each of those share currently represents 10%). It all depends on the Zurich-Orbital Gemeinshaft Bank shareholders' liability.

[FrankTrollman]

The books are frankly incredibly vague as to what digital currency is and how it works. Many of the books talk blithely about hacking indiidual credsticks to have more money in them as if the little display on the stick was the actual amount of money on it. And that makes no damn sense at all.

My own matrix house rules has a reasonably consistent and workable theory of digital currency. It's Here, and that's what I use.

-Frank

[Zormal]

My own matrix house rules has a reasonably consistent and workable theory of digital currency. It's Here, and that's what I use.

-Frank

Cool. I'll have to read that through.

Good to see you back.

[Marshwiggle]

I like the touch of low capacity data lines for nuyen verification there.

My thoughts here mostly aren't completely original - they come from various SR 2 and 3 player musings on the issue, mostly my own. This isn't the only way nuyen could work, but I do think it is important that there be an explanation, at least for games with multiple layers, subterfuge, and so on. It might not be fully appropriate for SR4, and it might have holes in it.

Anyway, here goes.

There are two basic ways to spend nuyen (so not counting corp scrip, gold, bullets, whatever)

First - the kind which is nearly perfectly verifiable and reliable. It is linked to a particular ID, and one or more central banks know that that particular nuyen is linked to that particular ID. Thus, for it to be spent, the ID has to pass a reader appropriate to the size of the transaction (and multiple smaller transactions with lower verification level would easily be flagged by the bank). The receiver of the money, before accepting the transfer, sends a Matrix message to the bank which issued the nuyen, saying "This ID, verified by place of business X at this level, wishes to transfer the following nuyen to us." The receiver would also have to verify its own identity with the bank. Then the bank would send back a message saying "yes, the sender of those nuyen does have the rights to them, so we are now transferring them to you". For truly substantial transactions, there would also be Matrix dialogue between the bank and the sender of the nuyen, more or less so that if someone is somehow impersonating the sender, the sender is informed before the transaction is finished and can stop the process.

This process can be subverted, but unless you can crack the systems of the bank (which can afford to have arbitrarily good security, and probably has set things up so that you would have to crack multiple banks at once), to subvert the system you would have to know which nuyen someone had, then impersonate them at a level appropriate to the level of nuyen you wanted to steal from them. Or, you would have to impersonate the receiver, which is always going to require a very high level of verification - and you would still need to know which nuyen the sender had.

The twelve year old hacker can still get free pizza - all that takes is changing the delivery address on a perfectly valid pizza order, paid for perfectly legitimately. But that wasn't a failure of the nuyen system, that was a failure of the pizza company, for which the guy who didn't get his pizza is going to hold them accountable, not the banks.


Then, there is the second type of nuyen exchange, which is intentionally less secure. Anyone owning the first, secure, kind of nuyen can (through a bank) transfer their nuyen not to some business or other legitimate nuyen receiver, but to an anonymous credstick. The bank now records these nuyen as belonging to this anonymous credstick, which pretty much just contains a list of the nuyen. The first person who knows the numbers of those nuyen to attempt to transfer those nuyen back to a secure account can do so. Alternatively, anyone can quickly verify with a simple Matrix query requiring no ID that the numbers of the unsecure nuyen he holds are in fact real unsecure nuyen (and thus that he could, if he acted right them, become their rightful sole owners). Lastly, anyone who holds unsecure nuyen can (without ID) exchange them by Matrix transaction with their originating bank, destroying them in exchange for new, different nuyen. Thus, someone paid in unsecure nuyen can easily become their new sole owner, at least until someone gets access to the numbers of those nuyen by stealing/hacking his unsecured credstick, or listening to the verification or exchange transaction, or however else you can think of. Thus, the transactions aren't really secure. It would be up to the GM how anonymous they were too - the question is whether the banks keep their swaps of unsecured nuyen numbers confidential. I am inclined to believe that they have a policy of 100% confidentiality.

In practice, the Johnson pays you by handing you a credstick with the numbers of some unsecured nuyen. You can check on the nuyen whenever you want (assuming you have secure enough matrix access) and make them your own (insofar as you now have numbers for the nuyen that no-one else does). If you want to pay someone, you give them the numbers of some of those nuyen, and they convert them as they please.

This isn't a perfect system, but it seems to work well enough to make most forms of subversion easier than messing with the nuyen system directly.

[kzt]

The idea that you can "check on the owner" is just a bad idea. I'll just have 6000 toasters continually looking for "unclaimed nuyen" 24x7x365. And it also allows random people to track cashflow of megacorps.

And it isn't untraceable, not even close. The bank knows the who put the money in the stick, they know who took the money out of the stick as they have to verify that the money is still "unclaimed". It's about as anonymous as the Johnson who requires you to fill out an IRS form 8300 in order to pick up your suitcase of cash after a hit.

[Marshwiggle]

You just need a trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion more possible nuyen numbers than actual nuyen, so that it doesn't matter how many toasters there are out there doing it, you've got more chance of a gold meteorite landing on your car than you do of finding free nuyen. Given how little storage space a single number takes, that isn't really hard.

And yes, the bank would have records of where the nuyen went. Strictly, it wouldn't directly know who was paid, just where that nuyen was later spent, but it isn't totally anonymous. The question is whether the bank gives those records out. If you're worried about the bank giving out the records, well, it's time to invest in some old fashioned money laundering. That is the age old solution to being paid in potentially trackable ways for engaging in criminal activities. The good thing though is that the Johnson might not want the bank to know either - the bank can trace the money backwards as well as forwards, and that information could be used against the Johnson, unless the Johnson keeps the whole transaction strictly off the books - at which point it is pretty much anonymous.

[kzt]

The issues essentially boil down to 6 issues

1) How can you have anonymous transfers of money that doesn’t allow you to create money?
2) How can a merchant verify that someone has money in the account they are using?
3) How can a merchant verify that someone is authorized to spend money from a given account? Are they who they say they are?
4) Can the person paying ensure that the money they transfer goes to who they want it to go to?
5) How can we prevent the person receiving the payment from endlessly cycling the transaction to drain all the money from the account?
6) How can a 3rd party (like a bank) fairly handle complaints from either party and verify what really happened?

SR pretty much doesn't seem to have any decent explanation of anything but number 3. Mostly because whoever put the "system" together didn't seem to consider the idea that people who are playing criminals might want to engage in fraud in addition to robbery and murder. And that whoever put together the cryptography rules didn't have the foggiest idea what cryptography is really used for.

I don't see how to handle this other than rewrite several chapters in the book or to assume it just works using your powers of doublethink.

[Ancient History]

1) How can you have anonymous transfers of money that doesn’t allow you to create money?

You deal in something other than electronic currencies. For example, if you bought three pounds of gold and paid for something with that (or a stock certificate, bond, etc.)

2) How can a merchant verify that someone has money in the account they are using?

Like accounts today, if they don't, an "insufficient funds" flag will go up.

3) How can a merchant verify that someone is authorized to spend money from a given account? Are they who they say they are?

Not the merchant's problem, that's between the individual and the bank - and is done using passcodes and biometrics.

4) Can the person paying ensure that the money they transfer goes to who they want it to go to?

Transactions are reasonably secure.

5) How can we prevent the person receiving the payment from endlessly cycling the transaction to drain all the money from the account?

Double handshake. That is, each new transaction would require a new authorization.

6) How can a 3rd party (like a bank) fairly handle complaints from either party and verify what really happened?

They both check their records and solicit any additional records as necessary.

Y'know, all of these questions could be asked (and answered) of modern banking.

SR pretty much doesn't seem to have any decent explanation of anything but number 3. Mostly because whoever put the "system" together didn't seem to consider the idea that people who are playing criminals might want to engage in fraud in addition to robbery and murder.

Not true. We addressed elements of forgery in Unwired, and elements of fraud will be addressed in Vice.

And that whoever put together the cryptography rules didn't have the foggiest idea what cryptography is really used for.

Command clusterfuck when you get down to it. Realistic cryptography would make certain elements of the game extremely unplayable with the Decrypt program as written.

"Sorry Bill, but it would take you longer than the lifetime of the universe to crack that code. Too bad."

Not gonna lie to you. The idea of a new mathematical technique that made decryption suddenly easy was an attempt to cover. Stranger things have happened in the history of the world (and yes, I'm well aware that there are encryption techniques that are mathematically proven to be unbreakable; if you want to use one-time pads in your game, don't let me stop you).

I don't see how to handle this other than rewrite several chapters in the book or to assume it just works using your powers of doublethink.

Thoughtcrime. Stop.

[Cthulhudreams]

You deal in something other than electronic currencies. For example, if you bought three pounds of gold and paid for something with that (or a stock certificate, bond, etc.)

But your answer to question 1 is flawed: People in SR do deal in electronic currencies anonymously.

Like accounts today, if they don't, an "insufficient funds" flag will go up.

But if I've engineered my credstick to just say it has enough money and give it to you (when, of course I don't) this protection won't reallllyyy work.

[Ancient History]

But your answer to question 1 is flawed: People in SR do deal in electronic currencies anonymously.

Only by breaking the datatrail by transferring them into a format that is inherently untraceable as long as you don't spend them (i.e. credsticks). In this case, credsticks are as useful as a lump of gold.

But if I've engineered my credstick to just say it has enough money and give it to you (when, of course I don't) this protection won't reallllyyy work.

Caveat emptor. Or "always check the money." Might be little green pieces of paper, might be forged nuyen. Ya never can tell.

[Cthulhudreams]

What I don't get is how A and B can be true at the same time

either 1) Transactions with cred-stick-ified nuyen are logged and checked with some sort of third party. In which case you cannot deal ananoymously, but you can check the money

2) Transactions with cred-stick-ified nuyen are not checked with a third party, in which case you can spew out the money ago go.

If I can make nuyen into gold by cred-stick-ifying it, I can make unlimited lumps of gold by just duplicating credsticks onto each other. It's just not obvious what mechanism there is for both to be true.

I'm receptive to being wrong, but I'm not sure what it is. (The: Each nuyen is a unique and special snowflake doesn't work either. Because the world turns on digital signatures, and those are the product of encryption, which doesn't work, I can just issue legit nuyen with new numbers.)

You could of course have the bank check each certified credstick nuyten deposited with it whenever money gets taken off a credstick, but this makes the forgery rules bogus - because the bank would immediately notice every time. It would also give you a crystal clear record of who got the money (Okay, so Ares removed money onto a credstick, and then those same dollars turned up in the hands of Mr Green, who we know is also a shadowrunner, and in the mean time Mr Green was spotted near an Horizon installation that.. you get the picture.