Can we beatt he Horrors?, It needed its own thread. Options

[Joe Chummer]

Cant wait for Equinox, Cant wait to see how Redbrick take the whole horror thing forward.

Red Brick is taking the Horrors forward by BLOWING UP EARTH. By so doing, there are no more Horrors. They are GONE. Finito. The world of Equinox doesn't even include them except in the history books. Equinox takes place in the aftermath of the Great War (which culminated in the destruction of Earth), not before, not during.

[toturi]

Red Brick is taking the Horrors forward by BLOWING UP EARTH. By so doing, there are no more Horrors. They are GONE. Finito. The world of Equinox doesn't even include them except in the history books. Equinox takes place in the aftermath of the Great War (which culminated in the destruction of Earth), not before, not during.

Acceptable losses.

[Joe Chummer]

Acceptable losses.

If you say so.

But I was referring more to Red Brick essentially SKIPPING the Horrors altogether in terms of Equinox's timeline. Anyone wanting a 8th World Horror fix in Equinox will be sadly disappointed.

[Grinder]

Red Brick is taking the Horrors forward by BLOWING UP EARTH. By so doing, there are no more Horrors. They are GONE. Finito. The world of Equinox doesn't even include them except in the history books. Equinox takes place in the aftermath of the Great War (which culminated in the destruction of Earth), not before, not during.

If you say so. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rotfl.gif)

[Ravor]

I have to agree with Grinder on this one, there is nothing that has ever stated that the Horrors are only able to cross over to the planet Earth, and we've still got those bones on Mars to explain.

[flowswithdrek]

Red Brick is taking the Horrors forward by BLOWING UP EARTH. By so doing, there are no more Horrors. They are GONE. Finito. The world of Equinox doesn't even include them except in the history books. Equinox takes place in the aftermath of the Great War (which culminated in the destruction of Earth), not before, not during.

Im wondering where your getting you intel from. Any how im happy to wait and see!

[Grinder]

Im wondering where your getting you intel from.

Me too, me too. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rotfl.gif)

I have to agree with Grinder on this one, there is nothing that has ever stated that the Horrors are only able to cross over to the planet Earth, and we've still got those bones on Mars to explain.

And a bunch of other planets too.

[Ravor]

Hmm, what other planets have bones on them in the Shadowrun Universe?

[Joe Chummer]

I have to agree with Grinder on this one, there is nothing that has ever stated that the Horrors are only able to cross over to the planet Earth, and we've still got those bones on Mars to explain.

Well, what else does this (from the official Red Brick "What is Equinox?" page) mean:

"In this final battle for the cradle of humanity, the incredible energies released also resulted in the destruction of the very reason mankind came back—Earth itself. The Great War was over, humanity had won, but Earth lay shattered to pieces, pieces left strung along its former orbital path.

Now, just over a hundred years later, and twenty years after a civil war of sorts, mankind once again feels in control of its own destiny. Tensions over the legacy of the demons had turned the Sol system into a lawless no-man's-land."

The war is OVER, and people are talking about the "legacy of the demons," which means they are no longer around, but their influence on history is still felt.

If the 8th World's Scourge was still going even after Earth was blown up, then they wouldn't say the war is over. They would say they won a battle but not the whole conflict.

And what bones on Mars are you talking about? I don't see anything about that on this page, which to my knowledge is the only official write-up of Equinox since no books have yet been published.

[Ravor]

That's because I'm not talking about just Equinox. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smokin.gif)

The "bones on Mars" comes from a picture from Shadowrun, I believe Big D's will but could be mistaken has a photo that claims it was taken on Mars and shows some sort of bones that according to Ancient History are not Dragon.

[flowswithdrek]

The war is OVER, and people are talking about the "legacy of the demons," which means they are no longer around, but their influence on history is still felt.

I think that argument doesn’t wash, and for this reason. The current Earthdawn setting is pretty much a "legacy of the Demons" setting e.g post apocalyptic. The scourge is over but many horrors still remain. The scourge only refers to the 400 years or so when meta-humanity sought sanctuary due to the sheer numbers of horrors that roamed the earth. The Horrors where around well before the actual scourge and after it was over.


So just because Equinox is set after the destruction of earth and a war with the demons does not necessarily suggest there are no Horrors about.


And apart from all that at least one Redbrick developer has hinted there might just be horror or two lurking in the shadows

[Joe Chummer]

I think that argument doesn’t wash, and for this reason. The current Earthdawn setting is pretty much a "legacy of the Demons" setting e.g post apocalyptic. The scourge is over but many horrors still remain. The scourge only refers to the 400 years or so when meta-humanity sought sanctuary due to the sheer numbers of horrors that roamed the earth. The Horrors where around well before the actual scourge and after it was over.


So just because Equinox is set after the destruction of earth and a war with the demons does not necessarily suggest there are no Horrors about.


And apart from all that at least one Redbrick developer has hinted there might just be horror or two lurking in the shadows

I figured there would probably be one or two dozen or so left in Equinox perhaps, but post-Scourge Earthdawn, by comparison, is literally overflowing with Horrors.

[Joe Chummer]

That's because I'm not talking about just Equinox. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smokin.gif)

The "bones on Mars" comes from a picture from Shadowrun, I believe Big D's will but could be mistaken has a photo that claims it was taken on Mars and shows some sort of bones that according to Ancient History are not Dragon.

According to some astronomers, Mars once had flowing water, a magnetosphere capable of deflecting solar wind (like ours does), and a much thicker atmosphere. It is quite possible that Mars was once a terrestrial planet that supported life, and thus, possessed a "gaiasphere" and by turns an astral form. Thus, while Mars was alive, it could theoretically be a place the Horrors could reach.

But this is under the assumption that the Horrors can come through anywhere there is an astral presence. We know the Horrors were able to somehow get around the mana void of space to reach metahumanity's colonies, but we don't know exactly how they did this. Equinox suggests they just wandered out into space rather than being able to pass through to the physical plane. The current write-up also suggests that Earth was the only place in astral space the Horrors were able to break through into the physical plane, and once metahumanity destroyed Earth (and thus Earth's astral presence), there was no further conduit for the Horrors to break through.

If the Great War is over, this implies the Horror population is either negligible or diminishing, not growing, and it suggests they cannot pass through from their plane directly into any of Earth's colonies, even though those colonies have an astral presence due to the amount of life at each colony. Essentially, the ants only had one exit to the anthill, and that exit was completely destroyed. Whatever Horrors are still out there are quite possibly stranded in our plane.

The Great War HAD to have taken place during the 8th-World Scourge or else metahumanity would not have survived the influx of Horrors. That the war is declared over means that no new Horrors have surfaced since Earth was destroyed. And since metahumanity is still alive 120 years after Earth's destruction, this means that Horrors cannot pass from their plane to ours even from the astral space of the colonies, or else destroying Earth would have had no effect on the Horror population in the physical plane.

[Grinder]

You're wrong, believe me.

[Joe Chummer]

You're wrong, believe me.

Well, that's a logical argument worth its weight in orichalcum.

[Fuchs]

EQuinox sounds like a nice setting so far. One can always ignore the horrors that crop up in favor of the original ideas and opportunities it offers.

[Ravor]

Well we basically have two possiblities, either Grinder is yanking our chains or he has some insider knowledge that he isn't able to actually share.

As for Mars being able to support life in some distanct past, sure, but it's my understanding that the theory's acceptance is relatively new and thus doesn't really matter as far as the "bone picture" goes. --- Could be completely and utterly wrong of course but that's my gut reaction.

[Grinder]

Well, that's a logical argument worth its weight in orichalcum.

I'm working on Equinox. And it's not like your "arguments" had been based on anything solid.

[Fuchs]

I'm working on Equinox.

No offense, but I just struck Equinox from my "to buy" list until further notice. A new SF game would be nice, "Earthdawn in Space", where once again Horrors play the main role? Not so much.

I'll keep an adapated SR as my SciFi system of choice, and Outlaw Star as the universe of choice for a Science Fiction/Magic mix.

[Grinder]

You shouldn't discard Equinox too early. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Fuchs]

You shouldn't discard Equinox too early. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

It's quite simple: I want progress to matter. If, after going from pointy sticks and word of mouth and magic to high-tech and magic, humanity still is not better off in the arm's race against horrors than in the 4th World I'll write the whole game off as the usual fantasy retardness. If horrors are relegated to the level of toxic spirits as far as relative threats go, I might give it a chance.

But I won't play a game where no matter what humanity builds and invents, horrors remain better. What was a dire threat to cavemen should not remain a dire threat to 20th century military. And if the 4th world managed to survive the scourge, then the 8th world should have beaten it.

Anything else is not SciFi, but a (stupid) "In the times of legends, men were men, we are now just shadows of our ancestors" Fantasy cliche.

So yeah, if it doesn't matter whether a character wields a plasma gun or a sword, horrors will always be X stronger, then no thanks - ED with a "find sticks, replace with gun" patch is not to my taste. If on the other hand, a starting character in Equinox could blow away threats that would scare a 15th circle adept in Barsaive because weapon tech and magic got that much better, it may be good.

[Grinder]

Humanity fought a war against the Horrors and won - that resulted in the destruciton of Earth, but that's the price that was to be paid. But even that won't make Equinox the game you want, as the power level won't be that of 15th circle adepts.

[Fuchs]

Humanity fought a war against the Horrors and won - that resulted in the destruciton of Earth, but that's the price that was to be paid. But even that won't make Equinox the game you want, as the power level won't be that of 15th circle adepts.

What I mean is that there should be progress. The game should not look, not feel like one just crawled out of a Kaer and someone modded the graphics to "SciFi". Horrors should not be uber, but something like Toxic Spirits in SR - nasty for a small group, but no threat for the world at large.

To make an example: A bear is a scary enemy for someone wielding a spear. It's not a scary enemy for someone wielding an assault rifle. It's no enemy at all for someone in a battle tank (or power armor). When ED has a spear carrier, Equinox should have power armor.

And of course there should not be some lame bait and switch "In reality, horrors are still around, and more dangerous than ever, humans only think they have won".

[Grinder]

Dude, it's a SciFi setting. Of course there will be Power Armor. And Nethertech. And other cool stuff. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

Give it a look when the core rulebook is out (somewhere in 2010) and decide for yourself - would be cool if you're non-prejudiced against the setting, though.

[Kagetenshi]

"An index? Why do you insist upon repeating these Names over and over?"

~J