Perception and Range, ...or how do you know when you've gone too far? Options

[Cthulhudreams]

Yes, and for most games losing 5 characters == ending the campaign, so don't use snipers in RPGs.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Yes, and for most games losing 5 characters == ending the campaign, so don't use snipers in RPGs.

No Doubt... It is a quick route to a reboot... but sometimes there are repurcussions that must be played out, and this was one of those times... it was brutal, but it was a lesson learned... at least the majority of the normal group survived it... the rest were guest appearances of another team...

Keep the Faith

[3278]

Regarding perception and range, I think there are a lot of good ideas here - I particularly like Dr Funk's system - but my recommendation is a little different, and I think it's one any Shadowrun GM - or player! - should follow: go outside and look.

Recently I started playing my first SR4 drone rigger, and so I'm using LMG's and sniper rifles for the first time in this system. To get a sense of the relevant range modifiers, and what they meant in-system, I measured out a variety of distances in Google Earth, both in the closest city, and in the wilderness [although a park works if it's big enough and you don't have any convenient wildernesses]. I took a couple of different image magnification systems - a high-power scope and some reasonable field binoculars - to remind me of what was possible with magnification. Then it's just a matter of looking at various-sized things - some of my drones are person-sized, some garbage-can-sized, some breadbox-sized, some car-sized - and thinking about the ramifications of your observations.

Seriously, I know it sounds like simple bullshit, and most of us feel like, yeah, we know what it means to try to see a guy standing on a building 1650 meters away, but it's really, really, genuinely worth doing. I have a whole new appreciation for ranged combat in SR. [And it's spelled d.o.o.m.]

[Mercer]

But in my opinion, fast and easy rules allow more time for the actual roleplaying portion of the game... Which I tend to enjoy a great deal... a lot of mechanics just tend to get in the way, which is why I like SR4...

Well, on the one hand you have the fastest mechanic there is, flipping a coin. On the other, you have Rolemaster and its 27 charts to decide if you can take a leak without getting your shoes wet.

Somewhere in between, we all play.

[Draco18s]

Well, on the one hand you have the fastest mechanic there is, flipping a coin. On the other, you have Rolemaster and its 27 charts to decide if you can take a leak without getting your shoes wet.

Somewhere in between, we all play.

I saw a rulebook for Roadhogs recently (it was TMNT in an apocalypic future type setting--not actually TMNT as it was...not meant for kids) that had a whole slew of rules regarding vehicular combat, including, but not limited to, taking bullets to the radiator, setting the engine on fire, and blowing out tires.

[StealthSigma]

I wrestled with realism vs. game balance there. A smart sniper takes the shot and gets the hell out of there; a smart sniper could probably wipe out the team before they could get to him. Since this is the first sniper this bunch of players has had to face, I decided to start off a little less then maximum lethality - no AP or Ex-Ex rounds, no called shots, no shoot and scoot or calls to other units for support. Mostly an exercise in Perception tests and long-range fire. It was still pretty effective - one PC KO'd and two more then halfway to KO'd. Considering this was supposed to be a minor encounter, I think making him any smarter could have been a TPK at the wrong point in the story.

A smart sniper probably would also avoid using drones, since as you pointed out, they can be hacked and it can possibly be used to pinpoint his location. The sniper's strength is stealth, anything that compromises that should be heavily considered as to whether you really need it.

I would suggest that instead of using snipers, use sharpshooters. There's a fundamental difference between the two. Sharpshooters tend to require many others to support them, usually by acting as a barrier between the shooter and the targets. They're also not nearly as clever, dangerous, or difficult as a sniper.

--

See, this is why I always invest in the aural boosts. It's usually easier to hear snipers than it is to see them. Visually it's INT+Per+Vision Enhancements, so let's say 4+4+3, minus the ghille suit and range of -7 and a threshold determined by the sniper's Infiltration roll. Hearing it's INT+Per+Aural Enhancements, +2 for the Spacial Recog to pinpoint the location of sounds, minus the range. so let's say 4+4+3+2-3, and the threshold is only [2] for the silenced gunfire.

I think your numbers are wrong, and personally I would say that attempting to locate a sound by pinpointing would be a higher threshold than just hearing it, so I would set the threshold for a check with your spatial recog at 3 not 2, or require that the player first -hears- the sound before he can attempt to pinpoint it. The ability to pinpoint a sound more easily does not convey any additional ability to hear the sound in the first place.

Visually you'd have 4+4+3-4-3 (I'm not sure how you're getting -7 from range) so 4 dice against the sniper's infiltration hits. Playing the averages, I'd say you'd have to get 4 successes to match the sniper's infiltration successes, and that's being generous.
Audibly you'd have 4+4+3-3-6 so 2 dice against a threshold 2 to hear his gunfire.

Personally, I've always felt that the ghillie suit was too underpowered. The only advantage it had over chameleon was that it could technically be worn over anything. I've felt, especially given the penalties, that a -6 would have been far more suitable.

--

Hey, It sounds like it worked out well for you...

As for the realism, realism kills PC's more often than not... I liked your solution (Besides, Story trumps realism, as long as it is not too cheesy that is)... And you are right, a good sniper will indeed tend to wipe out characters...

Keep the Faith

Heh, my MO for my sniper PC, when able, is to severely injure one member of the target group then pick off the rest. People tend to hate leaving people behind, unless they're dead.

--

We use both ballistics and Tactics as additional Knowledge Skills... the specialty for Leadership in Tactics would apply to get the individuals to FOLLOW your tactical choices, but the Knowledge skill would help you develop them in the first place... (Military Professional Skill would also work too)

Keep the Faith

We personally use Small Unit Tactics and Sniper Tactics knowledge.

--

I would see it as a series of tests. INT+Per+whatev to spot the sniper, but that would likely fail for the reasons provided (high threshold from Infiltration, severly penalized pools). So then it becomes a series of LOG+Tactics and LOG + Longarms to determine the most advantageous places to snipe from, and the ones that match the trajectory of the rounds. Then it becomes, "How do we get there?" Especially if by the time you get there, the sniper has moved to another spot.

I think every war movie has a variation on this scene.

LOG+Longarms really wouldn't help much. You don't know what sniper rifle he's using (if he's using a sniper rifle), you don't know how it's modded. You really have no way of telling beyond knowing that sniper rifles are generally useful from 1500m in. This is also partially why I encourage splitting sniper tactics from tactics in general. Sharpshooters and snipers behave differently. Snipers do consider far more criteria than just the shooting field from their chosen cover.

--

Which is why you rarely see them in actual play I would imagine... It is way to easy to set up the TPK using a highly skilled Sniper... having been on the receiving end of such a scenario, I know exactly how brutal it is... In the end, the Sniper killed 5 fairly competent individuals and heavily wounded 2 more before the remaining members managed to pull out... it was way brutal, even after we knew what was going on... (average PC Karma Gain at the time was close to 200)

I've told my GM this when I made my sniper... if I'm being targeted, I screwed up bad. Even if I'm running into a building with the rest of the team, a lot of the same skills can apply. If I'm being targeted over most of the rest of the team, I screwed up bad. The sniper's strength is not his distance shooting or firearms skill, it's his knowledge and stealth.

Not only all of these issues, but technically a sniper is one of the few combat characters that is effective with just a single IP. Also consider that most individuals who actually manage to survive a sniper shot almost certainly took more damage than their body, meaning they got knocked down by the shot. I'm beginning to think that using APDS rounds on a Desert Fox when most of your enemies are using 6/4 with a few 8/6 armors might not be the most cost effective strategy....

[Ol' Scratch]

Well, on the one hand you have the fastest mechanic there is, flipping a coin. On the other, you have Rolemaster and its 27 charts to decide if you can take a leak without getting your shoes wet.

Somewhere in between, we all play.

The rule I mentioned previously just sounds complicated. In practice, it's no more difficult looking at the (albeit larger) table of modifiers than it is to look at the default one. That's what I meant by it being more complex. Complexity doesn't necessarily make something more difficult. It's just more encompassing.

[Mercer]

I think your numbers are wrong, and personally I would say that attempting to locate a sound by pinpointing would be a higher threshold than just hearing it, so I would set the threshold for a check with your spatial recog at 3 not 2, or require that the player first -hears- the sound before he can attempt to pinpoint it. The ability to pinpoint a sound more easily does not convey any additional ability to hear the sound in the first place.

You would be free to do so, but I'm just going with what's in the book. (Silenced gunfire is a threshold [2], the Spatial Recognizer says, "This accessory pinpoints the direction from which a sound is coming. The user receives a bonus of +2 dice pool modifier on all Perception Tests to find the source of a specific sound.") I could see splitting that up into two separate tests (first without the spatial recog to hear the sound, and a second with to pinpoint it), but honestly I would just roll that into one test since hearing a sound is part of trying to find out where it is coming from. I'm not sure the rules specify either way.

Visually you'd have 4+4+3-4-3 (I'm not sure how you're getting -7 from range) so 4 dice against the sniper's infiltration hits. Playing the averages, I'd say you'd have to get 4 successes to match the sniper's infiltration successes, and that's being generous.
Audibly you'd have 4+4+3-3-6 so 2 dice against a threshold 2 to hear his gunfire.

The -7 was the total modifier from the OP's example, which was -3 from range and -4 for ghille suit. What I didn't include was the -4 for the silencer (which wasn't mentioned, but I was assuming since most snipers would be using it). So the penalty would shake out the same either way, - 3 from Range in both cases and -4 from visual perception for the ghille suit or -4 for aural perception from the silencer.

The aural perception test is still easier though, since instead of having to beat the sniper's Infilitration test as a threshold, you only have to beat the [2] for silenced gunfire. Now, if the sniper has ratscrewed his Infiltration test it might still be easier to see him than to hear him (hey, anybody can crit glitch, or clitch as my group calls it), but given that most snipers are going to have pretty good AGL + Infil pools, the threshold [2] is probably going to be easier to hit (and you still get 2 extra dice from the spatial recognizer). More dice against a lower threshold seems better to me.

[StealthSigma]

You would be free to do so, but I'm just going with what's in the book. (Silenced gunfire is a threshold [2], the Spatial Recognizer says, "This accessory pinpoints the direction from which a sound is coming. The user receives a bonus of +2 dice pool modifier on all Perception Tests to find the source of a specific sound.") I could see splitting that up into two separate tests (first without the spatial recog to hear the sound, and a second with to pinpoint it), but honestly I would just roll that into one test since hearing a sound is part of trying to find out where it is coming from. I'm not sure the rules specify either way.

There are no rules about pin-pointing the source of a sound. So it will depend on GM to GM. I'm just saying how I would do it. I just can't personally see having the same difficulty to hear a sound and pinpoint it. My choice of approach is based on the numbers and law of averages, that's all. Here's how I look at it. I can do it as a single roll, but you would have to use 2 dice separate for the spatial recognizer. You would need 2 hits to just hear the sound from your normal pool. If you get 3 hits on your normal pool, you ignore the spatial dice and you can pinpoint (within reason). If you get 1 hit, you fail to hear the noise and you ignore the spatial dice. If you get 2 hits, you roll the spatial dice to see if you can get another hit to pinpoint.

As I've said, I see no logical reasoning behind why the spatial recognizer would aid in noticing a particular sound.

The -7 was the total modifier from the OP's example, which was -3 from range and -4 for ghille suit. What I didn't include was the -4 for the silencer (which wasn't mentioned, but I was assuming since most snipers would be using it). So the penalty would shake out the same either way, - 3 from Range in both cases and -4 from visual perception for the ghille suit or -4 for aural perception from the silencer.

The aural perception test is still easier though, since instead of having to beat the sniper's Infilitration test as a threshold, you only have to beat the [2] for silenced gunfire. Now, if the sniper has ratscrewed his Infiltration test it might still be easier to see him than to hear him (hey, anybody can crit glitch, or clitch as my group calls it), but given that most snipers are going to have pretty good AGL + Infil pools, the threshold [2] is probably going to be easier to hit (and you still get 2 extra dice from the spatial recognizer). More dice against a lower threshold seems better to me.

Any sniper would tool his rifle. They won't be using the silencer accessory, but rather have it built in. This is key, because you're looking at 4 visual, 2 audible for detecting. In either case you will probably need 100% of your dice to be successes. Either way, detecting a sniper without going through rigorous time consuming methods is practically impossible for most characters. It's a good reason for edge. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Ascalaphus]

Aren't the distance modifiers for a silenced gunshot pretty intense?

[MikeKozar]

A smart sniper probably would also avoid using drones, since as you pointed out, they can be hacked and it can possibly be used to pinpoint his location. The sniper's strength is stealth, anything that compromises that should be heavily considered as to whether you really need it.

I would suggest that instead of using snipers, use sharpshooters. There's a fundamental difference between the two. Sharpshooters tend to require many others to support them, usually by acting as a barrier between the shooter and the targets. They're also not nearly as clever, dangerous, or difficult as a sniper.

I hadn't considered the Electronic Warfare option for uncovering his location - I guess if he's in communication with the drones, he's probably got a detectable node. I still think he got his money's worth out of the spotters, though, considering how often he got to shoot at characters hiding behind trees. On any other map, though, you're probably right. Last thing a sniper needs is to give the opposition a way to find him.

Regarding sharpshooters versus snipers, can you elaborate on that? I think I recall hearing that a squad-level marksman is a Sharpshooter, and a battalion-level marksman is a Sniper, but I don't know much more about them then the nomenclature. From what you said above, it sounds like a Sharpshooter is more of a on-the-move or medium range engagement style then the sniper's long-range long-wait style. Any tips about how I would differentiate, or kit them out if I use them as NPCs?

[Mercer]

I'm not aware of any penalties beyond the -3 for range (Object/Sound Far Away), -4 for the Silencer (listed under gear), and the threshold [2] listed under Percption Tests Threshold, BBB pg 117 (silenced gunfire being a specific example).

There are no rules about pin-pointing the source of a sound. So it will depend on GM to GM. I'm just saying how I would do it. I just can't personally see having the same difficulty to hear a sound and pinpoint it.

My assumption is based on how it's presented on the Perception Test Table. Penalties are listed for "Object/Sound", if you see an object you know where it is, if you hear a sound you have an idea where it is coming from. I can see making pinpointing (for the purposes of blindfire) to be much more difficult at GM discretion, but I think the basic Perception test should be enough for the characters to have an idea where the attack is coming from.

[Ascalaphus]

A sniper could use drones to shoot from different directions, hindering attempts to track him down through confusion.

[StealthSigma]

I hadn't considered the Electronic Warfare option for uncovering his location - I guess if he's in communication with the drones, he's probably got a detectable node. I still think he got his money's worth out of the spotters, though, considering how often he got to shoot at characters hiding behind trees. On any other map, though, you're probably right. Last thing a sniper needs is to give the opposition a way to find him.

Regarding sharpshooters versus snipers, can you elaborate on that? I think I recall hearing that a squad-level marksman is a Sharpshooter, and a battalion-level marksman is a Sniper, but I don't know much more about them then the nomenclature. From what you said above, it sounds like a Sharpshooter is more of a on-the-move or medium range engagement style then the sniper's long-range long-wait style. Any tips about how I would differentiate, or kit them out if I use them as NPCs?

Here's a good way to look at it. Snipers are strategic assets. Sharpshooters are tactical assets.

[Mercer]

Regarding sharpshooters versus snipers, can you elaborate on that? I think I recall hearing that a squad-level marksman is a Sharpshooter, and a battalion-level marksman is a Sniper, but I don't know much more about them then the nomenclature.

Each squad or fireteam has a sharpshooter; generally it's the guy with the best rifle range score. Usually he'll be equipped the same as the other riflemen in the platoon, although this was changing about the time I was getting out (2002).

Snipers tend to be in their own unit, which is often attached to the headquarters element. That is, if a given battalion has 3 line companies (each with 3 line platoons and a weapons platoon), the HQ company will generally have one scout sniper unit attached. The snipers would be deployed at the discretion of the battalion commander, the sharpshooters will be utilized with their squads by their squad leader or platoon commader.

[3278]

A sniper could use drones to shoot from different directions, hindering attempts to track him down through confusion.

Or could even, in certain circumstances, avoid being present personally. [The best cover is not being there at all.] Drones as sniper assets are one of the most ruinous factors of the game, if dealt with realistically [which isn't, fortunately, a requirement, as much as I personally like it]. Shadowrun high-precision rifles should be capable of ranges over 2km and accuracy greater than 0.1 minutes of angle [minute of arc, if you're a math guy]. To mount such a device to an aerial platform with an indefinite operational period and an expert system optimized with targeting algorithms is to gain an incredible capability, albeit one with certain limitations. Very significantly, such a capability costs vastly less than the countermeasures required to overcome it.

[RunnerPaul]

I'm not aware of any penalties beyond the -3 for range (Object/Sound Far Away), -4 for the Silencer (listed under gear), and the threshold [2] listed under Percption Tests Threshold, BBB pg 117 (silenced gunfire being a specific example).

Is subsonic ammunition in use (p.35 Arsenal)? Another -2 for use in a silenced weapon (drops to -1 when used without a silencer).

[StealthSigma]

Is subsonic ammunition in use (p.35 Arsenal)? Another -2 for use in a silenced weapon (drops to -1 when used without a silencer).

There's a drawback to that, no?

Either so, subsonic ammo + weapon modded silencer + long ranger = -11 penalty

Makes it impossible for that 4 intuit / 4 percep / 3 sound enhancer character to hear.

[MikeKozar]

Each squad or fireteam has a sharpshooter; generally it's the guy with the best rifle range score. Usually he'll be equipped the same as the other riflemen in the platoon, although this was changing about the time I was getting out (2002).

Snipers tend to be in their own unit, which is often attached to the headquarters element. That is, if a given battalion has 3 line companies (each with 3 line platoons and a weapons platoon), the HQ company will generally have one scout sniper unit attached. The snipers would be deployed at the discretion of the battalion commander, the sharpshooters will be utilized with their squads by their squad leader or platoon commader.

Okay...that kind of takes me back to my Imperial Guard days, but I'm still kind of unclear on how we use them in Shadowrun. If I'm reading this right, a Sniper would be a pro, using 20k+ worth of custom stealth and longarms tech and striking from as far away as possible, generally having set up hours before. A Sharpshooter would be equipped like a regular enemy, but would hang back and strike with more accuracy?

[RunnerPaul]

There's a drawback to that, no?

You lose 20% off of all range categories. The 800 meters described in the first post of this thread moves from being the far end of the "Long" cateogory to being in the middle of the "Extreme" for a sniper rifle.

[Mercer]

Subsonic ammo reduces a weapon's range by 20%, and the AP mod is +2. With a silencer or sound suppressor, it is a -2 penalty to hear the shot, -1 without.

That would still be a -3 (range) -4 (silencer) -2 (subsonic ammo) for a -9.

Still, a -9 penalty against a threshold [2] is easier than a -7 penalty (range and ghille suit) against a threshold determined by most Infiltration tests made by a character who is good at infiltration. (And when it comes to trying to locate the sniper by sound, the +2 for the Spatial Recognizer basically cancels the -2 for the subsonic ammo, so you're still rolling at a -7 vs what is likely the lower threshold.)

Against most opposition, the -7 and the -9 are going to make the sniper all but impossible to find. Against runners-- against most PC's-- there's going to be one or more people in the group with a high enough perception that locating the sniper will be pretty likely. (In my experience, most runner groups have at least one guy with a 15+ perception dice pool.)

Edit: That should be -6 for the weapon modded silencer, for a -11. -11 vs a [2] is closer to even with the -7 to the higher Infiltration threshhold. But as a general rule, the lower threshold with the higher penalty will be better than the higher threshold with the lower penalty, especially when Edge is factored in.

[toturi]

Subsonic ammo reduces a weapon's range by 20%, and the AP mod is +2. With a silencer or sound suppressor, it is a -2 penalty to hear the shot, -1 without.

That would still be a -3 (range) -4 (silencer) -2 (subsonic ammo) for a -9.

Still, a -9 penalty against a threshold [2] is easier than a -7 penalty (range and ghille suit) against a threshold determined by most Infiltration tests made by a character who is good at infiltration. (And when it comes to trying to locate the sniper by sound, the +2 for the Spatial Recognizer basically cancels the -2 for the subsonic ammo, so you're still rolling at a -7 vs what is likely the lower threshold.)

Against most opposition, the -7 and the -9 are going to make the sniper all but impossible to find. Against runners-- against most PC's-- there's going to be one or more people in the group with a high enough perception that locating the sniper will be pretty likely. (In my experience, most runner groups have at least one guy with a 15+ perception dice pool.)

Edit: That should be -6 for the weapon modded silencer, for a -11. -11 vs a [2] is closer to even with the -7 to the higher Infiltration threshhold. But as a general rule, the lower threshold with the higher penalty will be better than the higher threshold with the lower penalty, especially when Edge is factored in.

I'd say that the fixed threshold for detecting the silenced gunshot is just that. You detected the silenced gunshot. To find out where the shot came from is still opposed by Disguise whichever Stealth Group skill your GM deems appropriate. Infiltration is the SR4 equivalent of move silently. Disguise is hide.

[Mercer]

Really? Disguise? That seems... odd.

Disguise: When a character wants to take on a false appearance of some kind, she uses the Disguise skill. This is true whether she wants to look like someone else or blend into the background. (Bold mine.)

It still seems like it would be Infiltration, except that the silenced gunfire itself can't make a test. It simply is a thing, and it has a difficulty to detect stated explicitly in the book.

[toturi]

Really? Disguise? That seems... odd.

Disguise: When a character wants to take on a false appearance of some kind, she uses the Disguise skill. This is true whether she wants to look like someone else or blend into the background. (Bold mine.)

It still seems like it would be Infiltration, except that the silenced gunfire itself can't make a test. It simply is a thing, and it has a difficulty to detect stated explicitly in the book.

I would draw your attention to the second line. "This is true whether she wants to look like someone else or blend into the background." You do detect the silenced gunfire. Using it to detect where it came from and hence where the sniper is is still an opposed test. If you fail to detect the gunfire in the first place...

[Mercer]

It seems pretty clear to me that Disguise is used to make you look like someone else or appear innocuous in a general setting. Your interpretation seems, frankly, kind of "out there".