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[Snow_Fox]

I'm not sure if I'm looking to open a discussion here or just share what I read recently but it seemed to be a RL person with definate ties to SR. since SR1's Street Samurai Catalogue most pistols have had a reactive trigger, allowing 2 shots in an action the infamous 'double tap' of an execution style shooting. But the source of this is interesting.

In WW2 the British Secret Service, MI6, was virtually wiped out in short order by the speed of Axis advances. While it regroup the governement formed the SOE, Special Operations Executive which was to co-ordinate resistance groups and sabotage behind enemy lines in WW2. There seems to have been a bit of a boys school prank element to their training. One mission put skin irritants into German army condoms in a bordello. Wilderness survival came from the Kng's game keeper on loan from royal estates. Codes were taught by Philby, a mathematics Don, and later proven himself to be a Soviet spy. Hand to hand combat was taught by a Scott named Fairbairn who was Policeman in the far east and an expert in the garott. (Interesting police technique)

In combat training his partner was another former member of the Shanghai police named Sykes. Orginially a sniper Sykes developed a unique style of pistol shooting. Most people, myself included, shoot pistols from the aimed position, that is arm extended and looking down the length of the weapon at a target up to 25 yards away. Shooting from the hip , dispite how it looks in movies, is incredibly inaccurate-yeah I've tried it. At 10 yards I'm lucky to hit the target board(unless using a laser sight then it's easy)

However Sykes observed that most pistol shoot outs occurred at no more than 4 yards. He developed a style of shooting from a crouched position with the gun angled from the hip. He stressed the importance of shooting first and accurately but at close range like that even a miss would result in a 'flinch' from the target at the noise.

He also stressed rapid fire, having observed that while being shot once was enough to knock the fight out of the average man, a person charged with adrenaline could keep going even with a bullet in him. This mean the shooter was trained to do the 'double tap' firing bullets in sets of two, the idea being that the 2nd hit would probably be enough to take down a target only 'stunned' by the first bullet. I know that in SR more than once it has been the 2nd hit from the reactive trigger that has taken down my target, not the first.

But all this was developed in the 1930's, without laser sights or smart links, but it was undeniably effective. Truly plus ca change, plus ca le meme chose.

[crizh]

Body armor does not qualify as "soft targets". unarmored personnel are soft targets.

Had a downchecked Kevlar Vest lying around this summer. Grabbed several guns. .22lr, .38, .357, 9x19mm, 10mm, .45ACP, 7mm mauser(High powered rifle, .27ish), 7.62x54 (high powered rifle .30cal), .223 (high powered rifle very small caliber, about the same as 5.56 Nato)

Proceeded to shoot the living crap out of the vest.

Not one round penetrated fully.

Edit: No these weren't "AP" rounds. They were a mix of soft-point, FMJ round-nose, FMJ spear-point and JHP

What sort of setup did you use?

What sort of damage did it do to the vest? Did you see anything like 'spalling' or just deformation of the vest?

The particular effect that I read about that caught my interest was leg wounds. Not really relevant to an armour discussion but an over-penetrating shot did very little damage other than drilling a nasty hole and causing potentially life threatening blood loss.

Rounds that had started to slow for whatever reason, extreme range for example, or were poorly manufactured would start to tumble and would exit the limb sideways. This resulted in massive exit wounds and irreparable loss of muscle tissue.

[Sengir]

Back to context
a man in military grade combat armor in 2010 (much less 2072), would not be considered a "soft target" if included in a survey of battlefield wounds in Vietnam.

As a quick rule of thumb, if it dies to fragmentation warheads, it is a soft target. Even building are often considered "soft" if they are not hardened.

So the 2010 soldier still is a soft target, his 2072 successor in full elemental power armour gets the hard target badge...and has to deal with dragons, blood spirits, drop bears and SR explosive rules. Being a soft target might not be that bad, after all (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[kzt]

One thing I have often wondered about high velocity projectiles is whether or not body armour actually does more harm than good.

I remember reading a study of gun-shot wounds in Korea and Vietnam which suggested that very high energy rounds that did not pass through vital organs did relatively little damage because they did not start to tumble until after exiting the target. Slower projectiles that started to tumble immediately caused massive exit wounds and the corridor of damaged internal tissue was substantially larger.

It has made me suspect that high calibre rounds that penetrate body armour will have slowed enough to start tumbling inside the target when they otherwise would not have, thus substantially increasing the damage the target suffers rather than decreasing it.

I too remember reading a study that seemed to show that you had more severe injuries from GSW when you were wearing a flack vest (which won't stop bullets) in Vietnam than when you were not. It was based on detailed USMC records IIRC, but I've been unable to find it again.

[kzt]

A boxer's strongest punch transfers about 300 Joules of force.
A .50 BMG round delivers around 15,000 to 20,000 joules of force on on target.

If you can shoulder and fire a 137 pound M2HB off-hand....

A .38 special delivers an average of about 420 J.

There was apparently a US military test that showed that Rocky Marciano delivered over 1000 J of energy in a punch.

[crizh]

According to Wikipedia 7.62 NATO releases about 3kJ.

[Wounded Ronin]

I too remember reading a study that seemed to show that you had more severe injuries from GSW when you were wearing a flack vest (which won't stop bullets) in Vietnam than when you were not. It was based on detailed USMC records IIRC, but I've been unable to find it again.

That's why .45 ACP is the holy and sacred all-American handgun cartridge. Wide diameter + low velocity = win. Smaller diameter + higher velocity = fail.

[Creel]

blah

[Creel]

That's why .45 ACP is the holy and sacred all-American handgun cartridge. Wide diameter + low velocity = win. Smaller diameter + higher velocity = fail.

Unless your you're military. Then we use .22s in our rifles and 9mm handguns. We're not actually trying to kill them.

[Sengir]

That's why .45 ACP is the holy and sacred all-American handgun cartridge. Wide diameter + low velocity = win. Smaller diameter + higher velocity = fail.

So a tennis ball is more lethal than a 5.56mm round? I beg to differ (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[crizh]

So a tennis ball is more lethal than a 5.56mm round? I beg to differ (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Depends, a tennis ball with 1.5kJ of velocity might sting.

How much mass does a tennis ball have?

edit

The back of my electronic napkin guess-timates that such a projectile would be travelling at about 450mph.

Ouch.

If it were something less 'hollow' like a golf or squash ball...

[Sengir]

Depends, a tennis ball with 1.5kJ of velocity might sting.

How much mass does a tennis ball have?

Uhm, I assume you meant "enough velocity for 1.5kJ of kinetic energy" (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

And who cares about mass, the decisive value for KE is the speed. Still, if you want to hurt somebody other factors like penetration come into play. Even a very fast tennis ball will only cause blunt trauma...

[crizh]

Uhm, I assume you meant "enough velocity for 1.5kJ of kinetic energy" (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Velocity is energy, which is in turn mass when it comes right down to it, it's all much of a muchness anyway...

A golf ball doing over 500mph is going to hurt like hell. I imagine it might even penetrate an un-armoured person.

edit

A golf ball with the energy of 5.56 NATO has a velocity of 608 mph.....

[Draco18s]

A golf ball with the energy of 5.56 NATO has a velocity of 608 mph.....

Back of my hand guess is that that would make heads explode.

[Sengir]

Velocity is energy

No, velocity is the derivative of position in respect to time. Energy is what it takes a accelerate a body to it velocity

A golf ball doing over 500mph is going to hurt like hell. I imagine it might even penetrate an un-armoured person.

edit

A golf ball with the energy of 5.56 NATO has a velocity of 608 mph.....

And at relativistic speeds even a cotton ball will make targets simply explode...but in more realistic dimensions (wiki says the speed record for golf is 328kph), a tennis/golf/squash ball will certainly lose to faster projectiles with less diameter. Like a 20mm DU round...

[Draco18s]

And at relativistic speeds even a cotton ball will make targets simply explode...

Depends on the size of your target.

A little math reveals that a 5,000,000,000,000-tonne asteroid traveling at 90% of light speed would be sufficient to destroy Earth (causing a big enough explosion that the resulting rubble never recoalesces back into a planet).

[crizh]

And at relativistic speeds even a cotton ball will make targets simply explode...

Your original premise was comparing Tennis balls to bullets. I'm pointing out that objects of this sort that have been given similar kinetic energy to said bullets will indeed be extremely dangerous.

I don't have the remotest smegging clue how to get a golf ball going at 608 mph or what it's range might be but I do know it'll flaming smart if it hits you.

[crizh]

Depends on the size of your target.

A little math reveals that a 5,000,000,000,000-tonne asteroid traveling at 90% of light speed would be sufficient to destroy Earth (causing a big enough explosion that the resulting rubble never recoalesces back into a planet).

In the spirit of the OP perhaps I should insist that you fire two of those.....

[Draco18s]

In the spirit of the OP perhaps I should insist that you fire two of those.....

I don't have sufficient Earth moving equipment.

[Sengir]

Your original premise was comparing Tennis balls to bullets.

My original premise was that "wide diameter and low velocity beats smaller diameter and higher velocity" is too simplyfied, as it becomes evident when comparing a tennis ball and a 5.56 bullet at their normal speeds.

[crizh]

My original premise was that "wide diameter and low velocity beats smaller diameter and higher velocity at similar kinetic energies" is too simplyfied, as it becomes evident when comparing a tennis ball and a 5.56 bullet at their normal speeds.

Added the basic assumption you missed for you.

[Wounded Ronin]

Unless your you're military. Then we use .22s in our rifles and 9mm handguns. We're not actually trying to kill them.

Yes, that's why lots of branches of the military that actually use their sidearms a lot went back to using .45 ACP, and why everyone complains about how 5.56 NATO has inadequate stopping power.

[Wounded Ronin]

Back of my hand guess is that that would make heads explode.

Much like getting shot with an old fashioned musket in the head would probably cause your head to explode.

[Daylen]

wide diameter and low velocity is not always good. recently I have taken an interest in big bore doubles and have read some interesting material. the bore 2 was not very effective at killing large game because its ballistic coeff was so terrible it stopped before hitting vitals or enough vitals. It did however usually cause most large game to stop in their tracks from the impact.

as to 45acp, wasnt there a study done after the philipine war that concluded a 45 caliber pistol bullet is the smallest caliber of ball ammo that will usually take down its target in one shot?

[Wounded Ronin]

as to 45acp, wasnt there a study done after the philipine war that concluded a 45 caliber pistol bullet is the smallest caliber of ball ammo that will usually take down its target in one shot?

I don't know if there was a rigorous study conducted, but according to legend .45 ACP emerged, Conan-like, rugged and heroic from the mists of time, from the American occupation of the Phillipines. .38 special wasn't cutting it for dropping drugged up knife-wielders who were carving GIs up, so .45 ACP was invented.

EDIT: See, some folktales still live on. When I slam in a mag of .45 ACP, that's like loading up Paul Bunyan right there. How can y'all not get excited and start air riffing over that, to have some living folklore in your hand? One of the reasons I shoot and compete using .45 ACP in spite of the fact that it costs 40 cents a round when I buy in bulk is because it's so folkloric.

[AngelisStorm]

Bah, y'all are compensatin. .22 mag, .22 shorts, and .410 shotguns are the way to go. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

But yeah, when scary people come out of the jungle with a machette, I want a big bullet. (Sawed of 12 gauge perhaps.)