Cyberlimb Attributes Options

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Yes, but I'm pointing out that there are several sources of no-encumbrance armor, in addition to the limb armor. 'Eventually' doesn't come soon enough.

The upshot is that the limb rules are wonky, that's all. That's what the thread is about. They should be non-wonky. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Not sure exactly why they are wonky here... Help me out a bit... what is so wonky about them?

Keep the Faith

[Yerameyahu]

The whole thread? Averaging attributes. Essence cost. Condition Monitor boxes. Limb definition. Stacking armor. Relevant tests. Etc.

[Sengir]

Why not make Cyberlimb armor subject to Armor Encumbrance rules?

Because the whole point of implanted armour is that something which is (more or less) inseparably linked to the body does not mess with movement, and a cyberlimb essentially carries its own weight. Or from a mechanical POV, cyberlimbs need some advantages (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)


@Tymeaus: I was talking about the abuse potential of not installing cyberlimbs like you'd normally do, but installing four hands/feet with two armour each. Eight points of steel plating for very little investment.

[The Monk]

Why not make Cyberlimb armor subject to Armor Encumbrance rules?

Penalties if you have too much of it. Having it in yourself is just a *lot* more convenient than having it in a coat or something.

Another way to go is make cyberlimb armor hardened but do not stack with worn armor.

[Stahlseele]

HARDENED Cyber-Armor would be awesome . .
you could finally BE a walking Tank then . .
And if you get your built in, not implanted, armor high enough, you usually won't need any worn armor anymore either.

[darthmord]

HARDENED Cyber-Armor would be awesome . .
you could finally BE a walking Tank then . .
And if you get your built in, not implanted, armor high enough, you usually won't need any worn armor anymore either.

Then one could actually build a Robocop and *BE* that durable.

[Stahlseele]

yep! exactly!
then you just need to get your armor up to vehicle scale, not above anymore . .

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

The whole thread? Averaging attributes. Essence cost. Condition Monitor boxes. Limb definition. Stacking armor. Relevant tests. Etc.

Hmmm.. Just don't see it; I am going to have to disagree that the rules are wonky... they are there for balance...

Keep the Faith

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Because the whole point of implanted armour is that something which is (more or less) inseparably linked to the body does not mess with movement, and a cyberlimb essentially carries its own weight. Or from a mechanical POV, cyberlimbs need some advantages (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)


@Tymeaus: I was talking about the abuse potential of not installing cyberlimbs like you'd normally do, but installing four hands/feet with two armour each. Eight points of steel plating for very little investment.

Got you... But I would think that the rules in this case would prevent that, because you cannot armor hands, feet, or partial limbs... See Quote above (Post 47; At least, that is how I have always read it anyways)...

Anyways...

Keep the Faith

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Then one could actually build a Robocop and *BE* that durable.

Odd, the Full Conversion Replacement that I built, with just over 100 Karma after play (Alpha Package, with Alpha Equipment in all Capacity Slots), has 19 Boxes of Health, and No Armor in the 'Ware itself, and he IS that Durable (Worn Armor of 12/7)... He may take damage on occassion, but he has never been taken beyond Half of his Physical Damage Boxes...

Keep the Faith

[Falconer]

Actually I don't see a problem w/ including cyberlimb armor in the encumbrance. Because the cyberlimb can also easily increase it's body score w/ an enhancement. (IE: +2 points cyberlimb armor offset with a +1 bod cyberlimb enhancement also in capacity... if it's not a custom cyberlimb already w/ higher bod score than the wearer).

Put another way, for every 2 points armor added, if 1 point of bod isn't added... then the armor encumbers.


Don't forget the examples in the book average 5 locations (arms, legs, torso/head treated as one location). So someone w/ rating 3 bod, and 2 custom limbs w/ bod 6... (3+3+3+6+6)/5==4.2 Include +2 bod cyberlimb enhancements in each arm and now it's up to 5bod average.

[Yerameyahu]

I'm not saying they're not there for balance. I'm saying they fail at it. That's the whole point.

[Synner]

Averaging attributes. Essence cost. Condition Monitor boxes. Limb definition. Stacking armor. Relevant tests. Etc.

Given that the current cyberlimb rules (well, at least the customized cyberlimb rules) are generally considered the best iteration of those rules in any SR edition, and considering the inherent mechanic and design limitations of Shadowrun4 (including integral balance issues imposed by the default chargen systems, the cost effectiveness of cyberlimbs over versus other augmentations, and stuff like the secondary benefits/flaws of such cyber) I'd really like to hear why you think these items are issues.

Averaging attributes/Limb definition - It helps to think that since SR4 (like most RPGs) abstracts a character's overall ability in an area as an "Attribute", in that sense this Attribute is in fact already an "average". It is possible in (all editions of) SR for a character to have 1 leg and still have a Strength of 6 (even though he has 1 limb less). That's just the nature of Attributes as a game mechanic, they abstract overall ability rather than edge cases where only a specific part of your body or your ability is called into use. When addressing cyberlimbs the SR4 designers followed through on that, meaning that the cyberlimb enhancement rules were concieved to approach Attributes as something that reflects overall ability and not edge case use (that's what the "Relevant Test" sub-rule is for). Yes, they could have been clearer, heck, I could have been clearer in SR4A in specifying that limb enhancement boosts are averaged over 5 limbs not 6, but my point stands. It's a fine line and a difficult design decision because most other solutions are either too narrow /hard to implement/special case or mean that replacing limbs is mechanically inefficient.

Relevant Tests - This is directly related to the Attribute issue above and is the system's way of allowing for situations where there should be an obvious advantages to having a cyberhand with a Strength of 6 while you're (averaged) Strength Attribute is 3 (ie. such as squeezing someone's hand, punching through a door, or anything else you're gamemaster and group decides is a "relevant" use of those enhanced cyberlimb Attributes. The definition of a "relevant test" is intentionally vague because at my table shooting a revolver or wielding a one-handed sword means I allow the character to use the Agility enhancement in his cyberarm (instead of his averaged total), while at someone else's table the rule might be this requires all your coordination and hence the averaged Attribute.

Essence costs - I'm not sure I even see a potential problem here, particularly given the advantages the current iteration of cyberlimbs and mods they can accomodate (not just the cyberlimb enhancements of customized limbs but also stuff like modular limbs and all the cool accessories that make cyberlimbs worthwhile).

Condition boxes - The one area that could be errataed and corrected relates to partial cyberlimbs like hands and feet. Otherwise, most people seem fine with the extra boost.

Stacking Armor - We could have been clearer but it was assumed by the designers that all types of cyber and bio armor enhancement were understood to stack with worn armor. Not making sure this was clearly conveyed may have been a mistake but the rule itself is not unbalanced given the limitations of Capacity and overall costs of both enhancements and the cyberlimbs themselves (in Essence and nuyen). Yes, you can build a (relatively) bulletproof character, unfortunately there will be little room for any other enhancement in his cyberlimbs and it will show in his Atttributes. As has been stated in this thread, being (relatively) bulletproof isn't the gamebreaker people assume at face value (particularly not compared to some of the feats magicians are capable of and not at the cost it comes at).

[Yerameyahu]

Synner, I agree that what we've got is a best-effort. What I meant is that attribute-averaging and relevant-test-tailoring are (perhaps *necessarily*) a speed bump for actual play. They do confuse players. (This is what wonky means; I should have been more clear.)

I also meant that I hear many people say that cyberlimbs are not worth it, while at the same time I hear about abuse. I think you're exactly right to say that the overall problem is clarity in the rules, because much abuse (or underuse?) comes from misinterpretation.

[Stahlseele]

The abuse cries are there because you can seemingly do some silly stuff with limbs that you can't do with anything else.
Aside from magic, of course . .
The worthless comes from the fact that muscle aug and toner are better for getting stronger and faster because they do your whole body and cost less essence and are basically impossible to detect and disable. unlike cyber-limbs. also, for getting more body, there's better ways too with other bio, cyber and gene-ware too. Limbs are basically the phys ads of cyxberware.

[Yerameyahu]

That all sounds true to what I've seen, too.

[The Lorax]

I love cyberlimbs. They look cool, they give you all kinds of cool toys to play with, and they can be quite powerful without being particularly overpowered. Its weird that everyone points to cyberlimb armor and then write off limbs completely. If you really have a problem with that one tiny aspect that no one ever abuses except in arguments like this one, well, theres not much to say there. But its certainly not going to prove to anyone that you're right about how broken cyberlimbs allegedly are!

[Sengir]

Got you... But I would think that the rules in this case would prevent that, because you cannot armor hands, feet, or partial limbs... See Quote above (Post 47; At least, that is how I have always read it anyways)...

Armour is not an attribute (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[KarmaInferno]

He wasn't talking about the averaging (or not averaging).

He was talking about only full limbs being able to to have armor. Which considerably reduces the number of armor-able body locations.



-karma

[The Monk]

Attributes are an abstraction, cyberlimbs modifications can be abstracted into each attribute as well.

Why not just have them add to the attributes and have done with it. Having different limbs add or subtract and divide into each action in different ways is a little specific.

If the cost and the capacity of each full cyberlimb attribute bonus was increased, and you can cap each attribute to say two, you can just add that bonus to your attribute like any other modification.

[Yerameyahu]

Subject to the max-augmented limits? Hmm.

[Sengir]

He was talking about only full limbs being able to to have armor.

No, not really. He was talking about the rule that "The attributes of partial limbs [...] only apply for tests directly involving those limbs". Armour is no attribute however, so armour on your cyberhand indeed does count fully towards your armour rating.

[Stahlseele]

that and the fact that yes, your armored codpiece counts towards head hits.
because shadowrun has no hit location system. all armor counts everywhere.
no exceptions.
And yes, Limbs are subject to augmented maximum limits, only on redlining can you go over.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Armour is not an attribute (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Which is my point... The Only allowable Enhancements for Partial Limbs and Hands/Feet is Attributes (Armor is an Enhancement, so no armor)... that is all, the rest is non-enhancement capacity... Says so right in the Quote I provided earlier... at least, that is how I interpret it, and with that interpretation it stops (Cold) any abuse with putting Armor in hands/feet and receiving 8 points of stackable armor...

Kinda interesting the way it does that actually...

Keep the Faith

[Sengir]

Which is my point... The Only allowable Enhancements for Partial Limbs and Hands/Feet is Attributes (Armor is an Enhancement, so no armor)...

Where does it say that? The text you quoted only affirms that partial limb attributes can be improved, nowhere does it say "the only thing you can do with the capacity of partial limbs is improve their attributes" - which would be massive BS, as it would not just ban armour but also everything else you might want to put into partial limbs (weapons, snake fingers, sensors, datajacks...)