Karmagen Metatype cost, Need Explanation Options

[Ravennus]

Ok, I know this will seem completely stupid to some people... but could someone please explain how Metatype works using the standard RAW Runner's Companion Karmagen rules?

I've always used the BP system in SR4 and SR4A up till now, and the priority chargen in previous versions. However, I might be running a game soon and some players are interested in Karmagen.

After reading the rules presented on Pages 41 and 42... it doesn't seem to compute in my head, especially after doing a search on Karmagen here on dumpshock and reading various posts about it.
In RC, it says that Metatype costs nothing... but then you still start at minimum attribute ratings for your metatype. This just seems like free points, not to mention other metatype features that they get.

Yet I've read posts where some say it just costs the same karma as it costs in BP, and other posts where they say it's BP x 2.

So..... er..... could someone explain this to me?


BTW, I know there are some issues with the RAW Karmagen rules in RC, particularly with Attribute x 3 cost. However, I prefer to keep things as RAW as possible. So unless there is a specific official Catalyst errata, I'll be using the rules as presented in RC. Thanks.

[Mäx]

Ok, I know this will seem completely stupid to some people... but could someone please explain how Metatype works using the standard RAW Runner's Companion Karmagen rules?

I've always used the BP system in SR4 and SR4A up till now, and the priority chargen in previous versions. However, I might be running a game soon and some players are interested in Karmagen.

After reading the rules presented on Pages 41 and 42... it doesn't seem to compute in my head, especially after doing a search on Karmagen here on dumpshock and reading various posts about it.
In RC, it says that Metatype costs nothing... but then you still start at minimum attribute ratings for your metatype. This just seems like free points, not to mention other metatype features that they get.

Yet I've read posts where some say it just costs the same karma as it costs in BP, and other posts where they say it's BP x 2.

So..... er..... could someone explain this to me?


BTW, I know there are some issues with the RAW Karmagen rules in RC, particularly with Attribute x 3 cost. However, I prefer to keep things as RAW as possible. So unless there is a specific official Catalyst errata, I'll be using the rules as presented in RC. Thanks.

Currently race is free in karmagen, the errata for RC will most likely(based on writer comments) change that to BP-cost in karma as well implementing the new karmacosts from SR4A.
But thats assuming we actually get that errate sometime, concidering that Augmentation errata is still unrelesed, i would except it any time soon.

[Ol' Scratch]

The original intent was that the cost of having to raise your attributes from 1 to your racial limits (be they minimum or maximum) offset the cost for the race itself. So instead of spending X karma to play a troll, you have to spend Y karma just to get your Body and Strength score up to the minimum of 5 each. If you wanted to go higher than that, the karma cost skyrockets. Trolls are a problem no matter how you slice them; their costs are stupid expensive in the Karma system even with the pay-for-race and attributes-cost-x5 "fixes."

Anyway, the problem is that not everyone builds their characters so that they have phenomenally. If you're going to build a human with Body and Strength 5, there's little incentive to not just make him a troll and give him exactly the same stats. Your total karma cost is identical. The only difference is that you''d be getting free armor, reach, and thermographic vision instead of a +1 to Edge.

It gets even worse if you apply those principles to some of the newer options in the Runner's Companion. Take a Free Spirit for instance. There's 0 cost there, and you only have one attribute to buy. That leaves a ridiculous amount of points leftover to do whatever you want with them.

[Ravennus]

Thank you for the quick replies everyone!

So I was reading it correctly the first time then.... hmmm.

Well, Karmagen is out then. At least in any game I run. It could work, but as has been mentioned by many others.... it requires a lot of houseruling, and even then there are balance issues.

[Saint Sithney]

In my experience, karmagen results in far too many elfs if you don't make a dude toss in for karma = bp.
If someone wants to play a Troll, they're generally not going to do so on a whim.

[Mäx]

Thank you for the quick replies everyone!

So I was reading it correctly the first time then.... hmmm.

Well, Karmagen is out then. At least in any game I run. It could work, but as has been mentioned by many others.... it requires a lot of houseruling, and even then there are balance issues.

I wouldn't be so quick to discard karmagen as IMO it's the best chargen system for SR and just applaying the changes i listed to be likely in errate brings the power level of character way down.
Also it's not like BP-gen is in anyway balanced either.

[Ol' Scratch]

The few problems with race aside (most of which can be fixed with house rules; the easiest being adjusting their base costs and then simply turning their min/max ratings into flat out bonuses like they used to be), I greatly prefer the karma generation system in this edition. Mostly because the other options make skills insanely expensive, and I'm a fan of characters having lots of low-rated skills. Active and Knowledge alike.

[Saint Sithney]

And, it's not entirely "house rules" it's just the Karmagen rules from the German edition of Runner's Companion.

And if you think that it's too complicated to increase attributes to x5 and apply karma cost for race, then, lucky you, we've got a superfine excel spreadsheet in the Community Projects section which can keep track of that for you.

[Ravennus]

And, it's not entirely "house rules" it's just the Karmagen rules from the German edition of Runner's Companion.

And if you think that it's too complicated to increase attributes to x5 and apply karma cost for race, then, lucky you, we've got a superfine excel spreadsheet in the Community Projects section which can keep track of that for you.

Ah..... so the changes that people have mentioned..... attributes costing x5 and karma cost for races being equal to their BP cost (with free attribute points included) are actually a part of the official German edition of Runner's Companion??

I see... I did not realize that, and even if it's the German edition, that's still official. I might rethink my stance then.

We'll see.... I'll look at it more closely and make a few characters to get a feel for it then.
One thing I like is that it allows more diversity of attributes. I've always hated the 200 BP restriction on attributes with the BP system, and was the kind of player in previous editions that almost always took Attributes as Priority A if I could.

[Ancient History]

Ah..... so the changes that people have mentioned..... attributes costing x5 and karma cost for races being equal to their BP cost (with free attribute points included) are actually a part of the official German edition of Runner's Companion??

I see... I did not realize that, and even if it's the German edition, that's still official. I might rethink my stance then.

We'll see.... I'll look at it more closely and make a few characters to get a feel for it then.
One thing I like is that it allows more diversity of attributes. I've always hated the 200 BP restriction on attributes with the BP system, and was the kind of player in previous editions that almost always took Attributes as Priority A if I could.

The small changes to the German addition were the ones (I wrote the original Karmagen rules) I had intended as errata for RC.

In fact, I can reproduce the errata right here:

p.41 Karma Character Generation Table
The Karma Cost for Metatype (shapeshifter type, etc.) should be “As BP*.”
The Karma Cost for improving an attribute by 1 should be “New rating x 5.”

p.42 Step 1: Choose Your Metatype or Other Character Race Option
The first paragraph should read:
“First you must choose metatype or other alternative character concept (i.e. shapeshifter, AI, sasquatch, etc.); there Karma cost for metatype or race is equal to the BP cost for that metatype or option (i.e. if a race costs 10 BP, in Karmagen it costs 10 Karma); the BP cost should be noted as it is important for Step 3. The Metatype Attribute Table (see p. 70 and p.73, SR4) or the relevant table in the section describing the new character races in this book provide your character’s starting and maximum attribute ratings.”

p.42 Step 5: Convert Your Karma to Nuyen
The second line should read:
“A maximum of 100 Karma may be converted to nuyen in this fashion, or 120 if the character has the Born Rich quality (p.96).”

p.43 Focus Bonding Table
The Karma Cost for weapon foci should be “3 x Force.”

p.43-44 Character Creation Example

Marissa wants to make a new character for the latest Shadowrun campaign, something a little different—a sasquatch street druid called Sacnoth. Her gamemaster tells Marissa that they’re using the Karma-based character generation system, and she has 750 Karma with which to create Sacnoth.

First off, the cost of playing a sasquatch is 40 Karma, reducing Marissa’s total down to 690. Marissa purchases the Magician (Druidic tradition) and Mentor Spirit (Oak) positive qualities for 40 Karma, reducing her total to 650. To buy some more points, Marissa takes the SIN (5 BP version, citizen of the UK) and Incantation Geas negative qualities, bringing her Karma total back up to 680. As a sasquatch, Sacnoth begins with the Uneducated negative quality for no Karma.

Now it’s time for buying attributes. The basic cost for a sasquatch character is 40 BP; this allows Marissa to spend up to 455 Karma (one-half of her starting Karma plus twice the BP cost) on Sacnoth’s attributes. Intuition is of prime importance to druids, so Marissa decides that’s the attribute she wants to max out. Finally, she spends another chunk of points to increase her Body to 8—after all, what’s a sasquatch that can’t take a few hits? The total cost of her attribute increases is 280 Karma, bringing her total down to 400.

CODE

Attribute    Value    Karma Cost
Body    8    75
Agility    3    25
Reaction    2    10
Strength    5    0
Charisma    3    25
Intuition    6    75
Logic    3    25
Willpower    4    45
TOTAL        280

As a sasquatch, Marissa’s character starts out with Magic and Edge attributes of 1 and an Essence of 6 ( for now). Sacnoth’s Initiative is derived from adding Reaction and Intuition together, resulting in 8. Marissa increases both Magic and Edge to 3 by spending 25 Karma each, bringing her total Karma down to 350 .

Now Marissa buys Sacnoth’s skills. Starting off with her maximums, Marissa decides Sacnoth will have two rating 5 skills—Assensing and Astral Combat, critical for a dual-natured sasquatch—one rating 3 skill group, Sorcery, and Enchanting 3. The Conjuring group skills Banishing, Binding, and Summoning she buys individually at rating 4 and takes specialties in each of them. That takes care of Sacnoth’s magical skills, so now Marissa rounds her character out with some basics: First Aid 2, Perception 3, Survival 2, Tracking 2, and Unarmed Combat 2 (Subdual +2).

For knowledge and language skills, Marissa starts out with the Perth-Athabaskans Sign Language as Sacnoth’s Native language, and makes the sasquatch fluent in French Sign Language (Jive+2) at rating 4. To reflect the sasquatch’s background (and mindful of his lack of formal education), Marissa takes Botany 3, Druidic Lore 4, Magic Background 3, Medical Theory 3, Astronomy 3, and Sapient Critters 3

CODE

Skill    Karma    Cost
Assensing    5    32
Astral Combat    5    32
Astronomy    3    7
Banishing    4 (Plant Spirits +2)    24
Binding     4 (Plant Spirits +2)    24
Botany     3    7
Druidic Lore    4    11
Enchanting    3    14
First Aid    2    8
French Sign Language 4 (Jive +2)    13
Magic Background 3    7
Medical Theory    3    7
Perception     3    14
Perkins-Athabaskan N     0
Sapient Critters 3    7
Sorcery Group     3    35
Summoning     4 (Plant Spirits +2)    24
Survival    2    8
Tracking    2    8
Unarmed Combat    2 (Subdual +2)    8
TOTAL        290

After spending the 290 Karma points on skills, Sacnoth has 60 Karma remaining.

Cashing 5 Karma in for nuyen, Marissa uses the 12,500 nuyen to purchase a basic commlink (Meta Link running Vector Xim with a sim module, Virtual Surround Music, a sasquatch-sized monocle with image link, sasquatch-sized headphones, and sasquatch-sized AR Gloves), a handful of linguasofts (English 2, French 2), a shoulder pouch of food and tools (equivalent to two survival kits), and four months of a Low Lifestyle (a sasquatch’s lifestyle costs 30% more than normal). This brings her down to 55 Karma remaining.

Marissa can select up to 6 spells for Sacnoth at 5 Karma each. She chooses Camouflage, Clean Water, Armor, Heal, Stun Bolt, and Nutrition. After this, Marissa just has 25 Karma left.

For contacts, Marissa chooses as Sasquatch Bartender (Connections 2, Loyalty 4) and a Neo-Celt WizKid Gang Member (Connections 1, Loyalty 2). This comes to a total of 22 Karma.

With 3 Karma left, Marissa goes back and converts 1 of them to nuyen to buy a rating 5 magical lodge (a collection of heavy stones carved with ogham letters), and spends the last two points to specialize her Botany skill for Gathering, giving her Botany 3 (Gathering +2).

With all her Karma points spent, Marissa finishes the character by calculating his starting Condition Monitors, answering the Character Quiz, and rolling for his starting nuyen.

[toturi]

One thing I like is that it allows more diversity of attributes. I've always hated the 200 BP restriction on attributes with the BP system, and was the kind of player in previous editions that almost always took Attributes as Priority A if I could.

There is a restriction on attributes with the karma gen system as well. Comparitively the restriction in karmagen is worse, the attribute limitation in karmagen applies to special attributes as well, with variable caps according to racial costs. That forces Awakened and Emerged people to spread their limited karma over more attributes.

And RAW karmagen has no free Knowledge skills.

Thus the best min-max approach (without house rules) using karma(even using the German RC Race cost and x5 attribute karma) would be to pump Attributes and Active Skills, perhaps 2 Knowledge skills at 5 or 1 Knowledge skill at 6. I would also say that being either Awakened or Emerged is less attractive in karma gen. Orks are a good combat race while Elves are better at being all rounded.

[Ravennus]

Wow... thank you AH. Thank was extraordinarily helpful, especially the Character Creation example.
That's also amazing that you wrote and designed the original system and that I could get a comment directly from you on dumpshock. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Excuse my ignorance of the present state of affairs at Catalyst and of the Shadowrun line... but can we expect this errata for the English edition sometime soon?


I have to admit.... I haven't been on the dumpshock forums for ages..... I registered years ago, and occasionally pop in, but again... it's been years.
Just recently I had some friends express interest in Shadowrun, so I started digging into my books again and decided to check in here again. But since logging on, I get the vibe that some things have been shaken up recently at Catalyst.

Without getting into the nitty gritty.... is it true you aren't writing for them anymore AH?

[Ancient History]

Excuse my ignorance of the present state of affairs at Catalyst and of the Shadowrun line... but can we expect this errata for the English edition sometime soon?

I really couldn't say.

Without getting into the nitty gritty.... is it true you aren't writing for them anymore AH?

This is correctumundo.

[Ravennus]

Damn... that's too bad... you've always seemed to have an excellent grasp of game mechanics, which is amazing in a writer who also was great at the fiction/flavor side of things. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/frown.gif)
Not to mention, you've usually been very communicative on dumpshock and are usually quick on the draw to answer questions. Oh well, at least we still have you here! (and it's great to see familiar faces even after being gone from the dumpshock forums for years, lol)

So are there any other games you are currently freelancing for?

[Ancient History]

Not at the moment, no.

[Medicineman]

Whatever I wrote was allready mentioned Up there

with a German Dance(maybe a Schuhplattler (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif) )
Medicineman

[Brazilian_Shinob...]

So, AH, what's the point of playing as Human, since you may spend less points in stats than everyone else? Or after choosing your race you still have to spend karma to reach the minimum value?

An Elf for instance: it would cost 30 karma to play as one. He might spent 435 karma in attributes but must spend 10 karma in Agility 2 and 25 karma in Charisma 3, is that correct or I'm getting it wrong?

[Caelwyn]

Well I imagine its that even though your stats aren't as high you would get even more skills and contacts. You aren't paying for your metatype and you aren't paying a premium to reach a higher attribute.

Edit: I don't think you pay to reach the metatype baseline stats compared to human baseline stats. Its like with the BP build, thats just where they start. To use your example elves just start with 2 Agility and 3 Charisma, you don't pay anything beyond the Metatype cost to have that)

This post has been edited by Caelwyn: Jun 25 2010, 12:44 PM

[TommyTwoToes]

Well I imagine its that even though your stats aren't as high you would get even more skills and contacts. You aren't paying for your metatype and you aren't paying a premium to reach a higher attribute.

Edit: I don't think you pay to reach the metatype baseline stats compared to human baseline stats. Its like with the BP build, thats just where they start. To use your example elves just start with 2 Agility and 3 Charisma, you don't pay anything beyond the Metatype cost to have that)

And you look like 75% of the rest of the population. There is a disadvantage to being 9 feet tall, orange, and having 4 arms, regardless of what game mechanic advantage you get from that combo.

In my optinion, fitting in with the crowd is one of the bigest advantages of being human.

[Medicineman]

So, AH, what's the point of playing as Human, since you may spend less points in stats than everyone else? Or after choosing your race you still have to spend karma to reach the minimum value?

An Elf for instance: it would cost 30 karma to play as one. He might spent 435 karma in attributes but must spend 10 karma in Agility 2 and 25 karma in Charisma 3, is that correct or I'm getting it wrong?

Wrong (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
You simply spent 30 Karma for being an Elf and you start with AGI 2 and CHA 3
Raising it like usual according to the Karma Rules (Raising your CHA to 4 is 4x5=20 Karma).You may spend 375 & 30 Pts for your Attributes.

Hough!
Medicineman

[Gamer6432]

Was it intended for Karmagen to include special attributes in the attribute spending cap, or was that a minor slip of the cursor?

[Ol' Scratch]

It was apparently intended.

But to be fair, it was intended by someone who's often shown a weak understanding of the rules and what they represent within the context of the rest of the rules and the setting itself. Best to ignore that bit and stick with the BP system's limitation, assuming you feel the need to use a limitation at all.

[Ancient History]

Doc Funk and I have our occasional differences of opinion. The limitation on special attributes was deliberate in order to cultivate less powerful, more diverse characters. Since there is always some way to min-max the system, the ideal is to design the system so that min-maxing doesn't break it...and, well, mixed results.

[Ol' Scratch]

The only thing it does is make it so mages and technomancers are crippled in their other attributes for no actual reason other than because of 'just cuz." They already have to blow Karma on tons of other things that keep them balanced enough. There's no reason to introduce such an arbitrary limitation on them during character creation. If they intentionally want to cripple their magical abilities by improving their other attributes, they should be free to do so. Just like they should be free to do the exact opposite. In no way does it create balance, nor does it stem off min-maxing by any stretch of the imagination. Where you get that notion from is beyond me.

[Ancient History]

Like I said, difference of opinion. Low-level attributes are effectively cheaper in Karmagen than in BPgen.