What's the point of melee? Options

[LurkerOutThere]

I'm always reminded of the bit of movie trivia where they were filming Saruman's cut death scene in lord of the rings and Peter Jackson was describing to Christopher Lee what a man stabbed from behind should breath or sound like. Christopher Lee, who was SAS(If i remember correctly) during WW2 informed him that he knew exactly what a man stabbed from behind sounded like.

/nerd off

[Brazilian_Shinob...]

I'm always reminded of the bit of movie trivia where they were filming Saruman's cut death scene in lord of the rings and Peter Jackson was describing to Christopher Lee what a man stabbed from behind should breath or sound like. Christopher Lee, who was SAS(If i remember correctly) during WW2 informed him that he knew exactly what a man stabbed from behind sounded like.

/nerd off

EPIC WIN!

[Critias]

This is where my wife laughs at "nerds talking about killing/military".

That is where I laugh at "people thinking everyone who games is a nerd."

I'm always reminded of the bit of movie trivia where they were filming Saruman's cut death scene in lord of the rings and Peter Jackson was describing to Christopher Lee what a man stabbed from behind should breath or sound like. Christopher Lee, who was SAS(If i remember correctly) during WW2 informed him that he knew exactly what a man stabbed from behind sounded like.

It's not hard to be reminded of it, because it was linked to right here in this thread, yesterday, about four posts ago.

[Doc Chase]

It's not hard to be reminded of it, because it was linked to right here in this thread, yesterday, about four posts ago.

Man, that was so long ago. I remember those old glory days.

[Doc Chase]

It's not hard to be reminded of it, because it was linked to right here in this thread, yesterday, about four posts ago.

Man, that was so long ago. I remember those old glory days.

[jimbo]

Man, that was so long ago. I remember those old glory days.

"Well they pass you by...glory days...in the wink of young girl's eye..."

[Saint Sithney]

That information isn't really important to playing ShadowRun. This is where my wife laughs at "nerds talking about killing/military".

(note: I like Saint Sithney, he's a great GM, but we do tend to wax poeticlly about "information not pertenant to the game, as if it's showing off e-pene length)

No worries.
Good research makes for a good scene is all. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Or at least a visceral scene. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[Mooncrow]

That is where I laugh at "people thinking everyone who games is a nerd."

Especially when about half of the people I've played with either are or were in the military. (not that service excludes them from being nerds, but the implied "clueless about killing/military" sure doesn't fit (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif) )

[SaintHax]

That is where I laugh at "people thinking everyone who games is a nerd."

Duh... I game.

[Shrike30]

If you are looking to kill someone with a knife, there are two good places, and they are both nerve clusters...

What's wrong with going in above C1 and hitting the brainstem (preferably with a thinner knife)? Or just sliding in under the floating ribs and up from behind to hit the diaphragm?

[Shrike30]

Woo, double.

[Saint Sithney]

Because they'd loose their bowels while you're right behind them (IMG:style_emoticons/default/eek.gif)
Do you know how much it costs to launder ruthenium polymers? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/frown.gif)

Jokes aside, I was making my suggestions based around the rifle-clattering problems mentioned earlier. If you can shock the CNS, you can freeze them up, and then put them down however you like. Jacking their brain stem right off might just drop them too quickly, and the diaphragm might not drop them quickly enough. Besides, why deal with possible bone deflection by going straight to the skull and spine when you can just stick their kidney a couple of times first and spike them once they're on the ground?

[Dwight]

Point is, the character with the Gunslinger Adept, could make with two pistols, 12 attacks on a turn (3 initiative passes, 4 with two simple actions per pass), on the other hand the bounty hunter who fought in melee with two katanas, only had 1 attack with 1 complex action.

The Bounty Hunter only had 1 IP? Well yeah, any character with only 1 IP is going to have a tough time being relevant in "regular" combat.

P.S. Melee is generally quite weak vs ranged weapons unless you are in a situation where you can remove the range advantage. "Don't bring a knife to a gunfight" originated long before Shadowrun. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) There are some fundamental reasons for this and you have to heavily distort reality to even the playfield. Shadowrun isn't "reality" but it generally isn't distorted anywhere near the extent and the way it would require to make melee and ranged weapons equally strong in situations where ranged weapons normally have an advantage.

[Shrike30]

Besides, why deal with possible bone deflection by going straight to the skull and spine when you can just stick their kidney a couple of times first and spike them once they're on the ground?

You're talking (for a nerve cluster) about a target area smaller than a fingernail. Your spinal cord is only about the diameter of a finger at it's widest point. I'm more than willing to believe that putting a blade into either of those spots you describe is incredibly painful and/or rapidly debilitating, I just don't buy the nerve-cluster-as-target theory. Honestly, you get a knife blade into the thoracic cavity and start scrambling it around, there's nothing but bad that will happen, and that up-under-the-zyphoid shot is going to destroy pulmonary function and likely major vasculature incredibly quickly... why even worry about finding a particular nerve bundle?

[Badmoodguy88]

Any organ damage is honorably bad but the the reason kidney are a bad place to get hit is that it is the filtration system for your blood. Blood is constantly being pushed through that organ each time the heart pumps. If you get your kidney stabbed you will die quickly if you don't get help. People joke about fighting dirty and punching someone in the kidney but you should never do it. You can kill a person that way or damage or destroy one of their kidneys. That is the kind of trouble no one wants to deal with.

I would say kidneys are the most vulnerable organs that is not protected by bone in the form of a skull, ribcage or spine. Though technically skin is an organ so I guess you could say that is the most vulnerable organ but I mean in terms of able to take damage that will end your life.

There are systems with very deadly critical hits that might destroy an organ or cripple a limb but shadowrun is not usually one of them. At the same time it is not quite like D&D "are you ok? "" I'm fine: I've see got 1 more hit point left, why do you ask?" "You have burns over 70% of your body, and have a 3 foot metal spike sticking through your gut."

[DocTaotsu]

Hasn't anyone here cut up a chicken before? Punching through the cartilage between any given bone is not any easy task even when the target in question is already dead, cleaned, and partly dissected so you can even see the joint you're trying to separate.

Thought that said, once you knock out a few chickens you can get pretty damn fast at it.

[Draco18s]

There are systems with very deadly critical hits that might destroy an organ or cripple a limb but shadowrun is not usually one of them. At the same time it is not quite like D&D "are you ok? "" I'm fine: I've see got 1 more hit point left, why do you ask?" "You have burns over 70% of your body, and have a 3 foot metal spike sticking through your gut."

Reminds me of this article I ran across the other day.

[Thirty Second Ar...]

Hasn't anyone here cut up a chicken before? Punching through the cartilage between any given bone is not any easy task even when the target in question is already dead, cleaned, and partly dissected so you can even see the joint you're trying to separate.

Thought that said, once you knock out a few chickens you can get pretty damn fast at it.

This man is right. Trying to hack living, or even formerly-living tissue apart is hard due to all the connective tissue still hanging on for all its worth, not including trying to hack through bone and cartilage. And yes, the more practice you have at something the faster you get, with Martin Yan being an extreme example of this very specific example.

[Critias]

It's hard?

So what!

Experienced Shadowrunners (which even a starting character is supposed to be) do "hard" shit all the time. They're superhumanly strong and fast, have done whatever-this-job-is a dozen times before, have magic and cyberware on their side, and are trained professionals. "Hard." Pfft. If it wasn't hard, someone wouldn't have hired Shadowrunners to do it in the first place!

[SaintHax]

You guys are all wrong-- killing someone in ShadorRun quickly doesn't involve any of that: it involves large amounts of dice.

[killfr3nzy]

You guys are all wrong-- killing someone in ShadorRun quickly doesn't involve any of that: it involves large amounts of dice.

It's true; I was once only narrowly acquitted by downgrading my Murder charges to Involuntory Manslaughter. We were minmax'd, and they told me to roll all the dice, because I was the luckiest.
Poor Bob, we hardly knew ye.


...Or was it Bill?

[Kruger]

why even worry about finding a particular nerve bundle?

It's the difference between the theory of killing people and the actual practice of it. It's okay though. The discussions are worth a chuckle.

[DocTaotsu]

You guys are all wrong-- killing someone in ShadorRun quickly doesn't involve any of that: it involves large amounts of dice.

This is absolutely correct, when your knife physad throws a bucket of dice to stab someone, I generally assume reality slows down so we can all watch in awe he or she carves someone into pieces while a booming voice announces "BRUTALITY"

Also, Martin Yan is exactly the man I had in mind when I was talking about machining chicken into its constituent parts. He is a perfect example of "What it means to have a 6+ in a skill." I like to imagine an alternative post-apocalyptic Earth in which Martin Yan became an arbiter of justice rather than a fantastic and funny chef.

[killfr3nzy]

While you're at it, why go for a nerve cluster when there's a neck right there? It's a surprised attack and he's going to die anyway, so you might as well ignore armour and decapitate him.
Downsides including general lack of ability to put your hand over his exposed windpipe, and the fine mist (or gory sludge) coating your armour might mess with the Chameleon functions. On the other hand, who messes with the guy who has a Spirit bound to his suit with the orders 'Remove bloodstain'?

[LurkerOutThere]

It's the difference between the theory of killing people and the actual practice of it. It's okay though. The discussions are worth a chuckle.

So how many people have you killed again? With knives?