alt.WAR, Fixing War's problems by writing a new book Options

[sabs]

it definitely depends on the type of military.
The LT having a souped up 6 signal.. I can buy. The Sat Link (if needed) is on a drone, or back at HQ depending how deep into territory you're going.

A small special ops team is going to have a sat uplink on 1 guy, and everyone else will be running signal 4 maybe 5. They just don't need to be 40Km apart from each other.

1 Km, and 10 Km is more than plenty.

But you have Agents, Tactical Hackers, Strategist "cyberlogicians" running intel, processing information, giving guidance. The Officer in the field has operational command, but he has overwatch support like you wouldn't believe. You have a Cyberlogician whose got him, and air support, and an heavy artillery all at the touch of thought, and even without having to wait for the LT to ask for it, a unit under heavy fire can have shells flying their direction to provide support.

I think people are missing what TacNet + Matrix full VR really brings to warfare.

[hermit]

Besides, that way, if command gets knocked out, it won't make the entire army all apart instantly. CO's commlink, of course, surely is connected to command.net, and protected by Virtual Warfare commandos. Or whatever we choose to call them.

[sabs]

I could see a tiered TacNet system.

Individual Squads run tacnet that involves all of the members of the squad. This is probably coordinated by the Squad leader's Commlink. (So the LT and probably his Senior Non-Comm has a backup/switch over commlink)
It also feeds data up the line to the Captain, who has a tacnet involving all of the squads under him, so on up the line. They also pass information down the line, on an as needed basis. (allowing multiple squads to coordinate, etc) A General is running a TacNet that has everyone under it, and is being analyzed like crazy.

Drones are part of a seperate tacnet infrastructure where individual riggers are running tacnets between all of the drones they personally control. That information is passed up the chain of command. Additionally, all riggers are attached to squads where they share tacnet info together.

It's a complicated web of interaction. There is on top of that constantly running Combat Hackers whose job it is to keep all this shit secure.

We know what a basic Squad TacNet looks like, it's the 1-4 tacnets we see in shadowrun.
What does the rest of this look like? How does it effect warfare, what benefits does it give. What are the requirements for running it. We don't want just creeping mondoism, but that being said we need to figure out what it looks like.

Fire Team -> Squad -> Section -> Platoon -> Company -> Battalion -> Regiment -> Brigade -> Division -> Corps -> Field Army -> Army Group -> Region -> Theater.
Obviously very few conflicts these days are going to be large enough to include some of the top end of that.

What does it look like, what are the benefits, the downsides, when your entire company is in the same TacNet web, during combat. How does that effect the common grunt soldier, what does that give the Company Commander and his entire Staff.

[hermit]

Drones are part of a seperate tacnet infrastructure where individual riggers are running tacnets between all of the drones they personally control. That information is passed up the chain of command. Additionally, all riggers are attached to squads where they share tacnet info together.

That would require drones to be able to become full members of a tacnet, right now they may only become sensor feeds. A logical step though. Same with Agents. Maybe that could be solved by a Tacnet Member software?

As for securing this net,. I would expect every node to have a guard IC/Agent running ans massice Analyse capabilities to pick up infiltration and inform about it. The IC/Agents could be part of a tacnet centering on each combat hacker, whon then moves in whenever there is an anomaly.

[Arclight]

Sabs,

I think you have too many layers there. Either you make heavy use of tacnets, which IMHO means expensive, small and agile units with very few layers of command, or you deploy relatively huge numbers, where you just can't afford such a network for everyone. Then you need multiple layers of command to coordinate your troops.

Also, IMO tacnets would be designed into two subcomponents: the tactical net substructure to define and communicate objectives from the command section to the maneuver elements and an intel gathering and refining substructure. This intel system would deploy most of the sensors and would compose a realtime situation report for the relevant battlespace where command can base decisions on.

IMO, there is very few intel to be gathered at the squad level that isn't gathered through UAV, ELINT, and all those other nice strategic gathering systems.

By using this system, you could put your tactical units on receive only and simply broadcast new tactical objectives via satellite on the whole region. Simple, effective and your units won't be found by enemy radio recon units.

[sabs]

It's very possible that there are too many layers (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
hence why I was saying it was somethign to talk about.

I feel like Command Central having a Strategy Net that gives him bonuses to military tactics rolls, and other such things seems important.

A Captain should be able to tell where everyone in his Company is.
A Platoon Leader (usually an LT) should be able to tell what's going on with everyone in his platoon.

The Squad/Fire team leaders should be able to see themselves, and potentially the teams they are coordinating with. Also, for Amazonia/Azt we're talking about actually warfare so you have Battalion level combat going on.

Drone intelligence, coordinating drones and grunts. These all seem like things an Army would want to be able to do.

[Brazilian_Shinob...]

It's all fine and dandy, but when it comes to the actual battleground, things start going south. It is like the saying, there is no campaign that survives contact with the players. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

Equipment breaks, ECM happens, ECCM counters ECM, drones are shot down or just can't see through the cover, etc.
If you consider the battleground that Aztlan and Amazonia are fighting (a rainforest with lots and lots of tree cover and rivers everywhere), tacnets will be useful only on squad level.

I know that SR commlinks abstract stuff like memory capacity and stuff, but having a nexus receiving information from every soldier and drone deployed shatters my suspension of disbelief in very small pieces.

[Tzeentch]

tzeentch?
The setup you have..
This is for Hightech Ares,S&K, CAS, UCAS style military right?

-- Yup, reasonably good equipment and training, but not the resources to blow millions per soldier on stuff that can't be given to the next recruit (hence no military grade armor). The most expensive thing they have on them is the military helmet if I'm not mistaken - which is basically the keystone piece of gear since it has so much stuff incorporated (see p. 51, Arsenal).

Also, why does the LT run the tacnet for his unit.
Would it not make more sense, for the TacNet to be run Operation Wide.. from say.. Command Central?

-- If you could get enough subscription channels, sure. Seems a bit risky to be that centralized though. Would be a good option for cash-strapped forces though. Even a militia unit can probably afford a few TacSoft 1's for area commanders.

that's the other thing.
TacNets 1-4 don't take into account the idea that you could have tacsoft running on 20,000 men and drones, coordinating over a 100 mile front.

-- I assume the squad commander has all of his fireteam leaders subscribed to his tacnet, the company commander has all of them subscribed, and so on. I'm not sure if daisy-chaining subscribers is allowed though (relates also to Command Central idea).
-- Tacnets lose their relevance beyond the well... tactical level though. I suspect what's more likely is that the higher commands just use Agents to monitor things on that feed and alert them of anything interesting that hasn't already been kicked up the chain.

I mean, is there such a thing as StratNet?

-- Sure, we have primitive versions of such a thing now. I doubt it would have any game rules without some sort of Shadowrun Mass Combat system. Most of its advantages are more on the organizational and logistics front and not "it helps me shoot things better."

[Tzeentch]

-- Here's a query, what exactly does the military helmet upgrades cover? Does it boost all the ratings up? It says "The helmet’s military commlink
can be upgraded to hardware ratings of 5 (+2,500¥) or 6 (+8,500¥)."

[Doc Chase]

-- Here's a query, what exactly does the military helmet upgrades cover? Does it boost all the ratings up? It says "The helmet’s military commlink
can be upgraded to hardware ratings of 5 (+2,500¥) or 6 (+8,500¥)."

I would assume it boosts Signal/Response.

[Nath]

I had some time, and made a first attempt on the 1er REC. Not sure what it's worth and how well it fits.

[Brazilian_Shinob...]

Nice, Nath.
I've made two files on google docs, one with my draft of Maracaibo and another one with a list of shadowtalkers so far, send me a PM and I'll add you to it (also, you can choose any appropriate shadowtalkers there).

Also, made a few grammar corrections on the Maracaibo draft and added suggested ideas. Few free to comment.

Here is the link to see the files anyway (no editing).

[hermit]

With annotations. Looks pretty good so far, Nath. My annotations are blue. Also fixed some minor spelling stuff, nothing serious.

Shinobi, your links seem not to be working. EDIT: found it. So the Verdaderos Venezolanos have a bit of an infiltraton problem with TerraFirst!? Or have they just sold themselves to the devil to make Aztlan bleed?

[Brazilian_Shinob...]

With annotations. Looks pretty good so far, Nath. My annotations are blue. Also fixed some minor spelling stuff, nothing serious.

Shinobi, your links seem not to be working. EDIT: found it. So the Verdaderos Venezolanos have a bit of an infiltraton problem with TerraFirst!? Or have they just sold themselves to the devil to make Aztlan bleed?

Well, that remains to be seen.

[sabs]

Well, that remains to be seen.

That might be the kind of thing we let GMs decide for themselves at their table?

[Brazilian_Shinob...]

That's what I thought too.
I think there is enough hint and innuendo for the GM's decide either way.

[sabs]

Did you see my comments the other day?

Do you think you can flesh out Maracaibos to say.. 4-5 pages?

Also, can we stop talking about the trees..
And with the plot twists we're going with.. Maracaibos is the Aztlan Army base as well.
Most of the major land fighting between ATZ and AMZ are going on in the area between Maracaibos and Caracas.

[Brazilian_Shinob...]

Did you see my comments the other day?

Do you think you can flesh out Maracaibos to say.. 4-5 pages?

Also, can we stop talking about the trees..
And with the plot twists we're going with.. Maracaibos is the Aztlan Army base as well.
Most of the major land fighting between ATZ and AMZ are going on in the area between Maracaibos and Caracas.

Yes sabs, I did see your comments.
And yes, I think I can flesh out Maracaibo more. Right now, I think it has some 1300-ish words. I think I can increase to 2000.

[Grinder]

Shit, I didn't get much done the last days. Will look into your draft as soon as possible!

[hermit]

That might be the kind of thing we let GMs decide for themselves at their table?

Okay, let's leave that open. We need to mention the Greenies working with/towards Sirrug's/The Na'vis' end, though, at least.

[sabs]

man we need those forums (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

We need to plot out the War, the Major players and 3-4 reasons why they're doing what they're doing

[hermit]

YES.

[Nath]

To answer quickly about the 1er REC:
- The regiment may remain in Orange (I omited it at first as I wanted to check some maps in French sourcebooks). French Guiana is certainly not an option for a tank regiment: there are only jungle and swamps over there.
- The 1er REC would have no airdrop capacity. In the French armed forces, airdrop capable units all have the "parachutiste" designation. I may add a sentence about Lansquenet weights being in a range that allow air transport.

I'll also make some changes to be closer to the future organization of the regiment (due in 2011), with only three combat squadrons, instead of the old one.

Regarding "fast mobilization", the question is, should France still have military bases in Africa ? The Shadowrun paradigm and the description of Africa in Cyberpirates rather suggest megacorporations like Ares or S-K took over the role of western countries, as there is no mention of any French presence. Nowadays, when a regiment like the 1er REC deploy a squadron in Africa, they do not bring their vehicles with them, and use those stationed in French permanent military bases. If the armed forces shut down those bases, deploying cavalry units will no longer be a option, except your troops to stay a year or two. The tank regiments will be back to a cold war, waiting at home that Russia tries again to conquer Europe. And you're likely to have similar situations in a lot of western armies actually: what would justify the UCAS to field MBT for instance ?

[sabs]

Nations pulled out of Africa.

VITAS I had a 75 to 95% kill rate in Africa.
VITAS II had a 30% kill rate.

I think that the REC and the MBT etc.. are in Caracas as part of a joint UN/CC peace keeping mission.

[hermit]

Regarding "fast mobilization", the question is, should France still have military bases in Africa ?

I think yes, probably in a joint effort with ESPRIT, GIAT and ZIC, possibly also AGC. There's lots of stuff France wants here (like, Uranium; France still relies on nuclear power a lot), those companies want here, and no reason why either should not go and grab it. After all, Africa's pretty much no man's land.

With the Great Jihad, it's plausible that France has some forward bases in Africa, just to be able to react fast should there ever be something threatening them again. I could also see France supporting, say, the Benin (a country I would like to do a writeup of anyway, amazons and all).

I think that the REC and the MBT etc.. are in Caracas as part of a joint UN/CC peace keeping mission.

Makes sense. MAybe called in by the UN to pacify the situation or to have a big stick of their own? SK's forces could be coming in the same way (and maybe GIAT or Maersk, doing the transport and having a supply contract?).