Naturally limiting magician characters, without it seeming like your picking on them Options

[onlyghostdancesw...]

And we've just hit the nail on the head as to why dealing with corporate security, to ward off anything in particular, is a slippery slope. A nasty slippery slope that if you get carried away can make this game borderline unplayable.

Remember that Corporations are practically, for all intent and purposes, nations. They have borders, they have laws, they have "serfs," they have their own security forces which can use any amount of force for practically any cost the corporation sees fit to defend a particular interest. Different interests require different amounts of fortification.

I'm not going to get to heavy into this rant, but if a piece of pay data is worth paying a team of disposable shmucks 100,000 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) , that is because that paydata is worth billions to whoever gets that data and is capable of exercising proper force and resources upon the situation.

In this case we're not even talking about anything heavy duty or keeping up with the fast paced world of technological intrusion, we're talking about essential Magical defenses from companies that employ the exact sorts of people who know how to implement them.

But don't think about this stuff too much. It is true that there is nothing so secure that you cannot compromise it, but you can build a system that would take years of social engineering, infiltration, and dedication to steal from (there are a few real life examples of this as well) and no one wants to play THAT kind of Shadowrun. Leave that stuff to the high paid, high risk corporate espionage personnel.

just one bone to pick you there, the phrase Corporations that you use should really be MEGA-Corporations; only they have the jaw dropping extraterritorial power that you mention above and quite frankly they should be scary to cross. The rest of the corps have to respect national sovereignty and are thus barred from military etc etc forces.

[Chainsaw Samurai]

just one bone to pick you there, the phrase Corporations that you use should really be MEGA-Corporations; only they have the jaw dropping extraterritorial power that you mention above and quite frankly they should be scary to cross. The rest of the corps have to respect national sovereignty and are thus barred from military etc etc forces.

Which would be a much more valid point if most of the non-mega-corporations weren't wholly owned subsidiaries of said mega-corporations, but I do concede the point.

[Draco18s]

They've also had sixty years to find the magical talent.

[Neraph]

Not really. For a background count of 2 and less it takes like 30-60 days, and the monetary investment is largely meaningless.

And we've just hit the nail on the head as to why dealing with corporate security, to ward off anything in particular, is a slippery slope. A nasty slippery slope that if you get carried away can make this game borderline unplayable.

Remember that Corporations are practically, for all intent and purposes, nations. They have borders, they have laws, they have "serfs," they have their own security forces which can use any amount of force for practically any cost the corporation sees fit to defend a particular interest. Different interests require different amounts of fortification.

I'm not going to get to heavy into this rant, but if a piece of pay data is worth paying a team of disposable shmucks 100,000 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) , that is because that paydata is worth billions to whoever gets that data and is capable of exercising proper force and resources upon the situation.

In this case we're not even talking about anything heavy duty or keeping up with the fast paced world of technological intrusion, we're talking about essential Magical defenses from companies that employ the exact sorts of people who know how to implement them.

But don't think about this stuff too much. It is true that there is nothing so secure that you cannot compromise it, but you can build a system that would take years of social engineering, infiltration, and dedication to steal from (there are a few real life examples of this as well) and no one wants to play THAT kind of Shadowrun. Leave that stuff to the high paid, high risk corporate espionage personnel.

There is no monetary investment in Geomancy. It's a monthly Test until it works.

So your corps are tripping over the only places on earth where this is possible, and have more geomancers then I can even contemplate?
Shenanigans.

You can create Backround Count fairly easily. For example, simply having an enchanting workshop for a length of time will build rating 2 Backround Count (Street Magic, page 121, Sidebar). Alternatively, you can get a Free Spirit of your tradition that has Personal Domain and Long-Term Bind him at your workplace.

[Draco18s]

There is no monetary investment in Geomancy. It's a monthly Test until it works.

I couldn't remember if there was or not, and given that any monetary cost for these kinds of things is affordable for most PCs, means that the cost is a tiny drop in a very large bucket for a corp.

[Neraph]

I couldn't remember if there was or not, and given that any monetary cost for these kinds of things is affordable for most PCs, means that the cost is a tiny drop in a very large bucket for a corp.

The only cost may be if the GM actually wants them to change the furniture, but then the prices for furniture are also non-existent.

[Chainsaw Samurai]

There is no monetary investment in Geomancy. It's a monthly Test until it works.

Indeed. Although I wasn't talking strictly about Geomancy, I was talking about all forms of security. Period.

Of course there is still a cost involved in Geomancy for Corporations. The Salary of the personnel who make it happen. Which is pretty negligible considering you need them around anyway.

I'm not positive about the ins and outs of how much maintenance is required. Does the site essentially need some sort of "Magical Janitor" to come by and spruce the place up a bit, or can a corp essentially have a Geomancy Superteam that flies around the globe, gets this done, and then continues to the next location?

[Chainsaw Samurai]

I also wanted to add that all of this is nothing for a Mage to feel "persecuted" over. Yes he's losing dice or facing more severe challenges (or both), but that is the cost that any archetype faces when going up against high-value targets with serious security. I'm sure the team's Street Sam and Hacker would rather be going up against rent-a-cops as opposed to highly armed and better trained hard core Corp sec.

Opposition having better equipment and training doesn't necessarily effect Mages the way it does other types of Runners. Corp Sec teams having superior body armor and weaponry directly screws with the success of a Street Samurai, better programs and Matrix defenses directly screw with a Hacker. All of the body armor and tech money can buy doesn't necessarily slow a Mage down any when it is applied to mundane security personnel (due to variety of spells available, most of which don't even care about these sorts of things). So background count, removing dice from the mage, and more intense magical countermeasures are all that can up the ante really.

[Midas]

I would agree with Mordivan that an Aspected Domain should remain in the realm of a highly specialized magic research lab aspected to a specific tradition. As TJ and Halinn said, given that most wage mages will be from various traditions, aspecting a whole corp facility to only one type will likely bone rather than be boon to more of their awakened staff.

Saying that, wage mages won't all be Magic 2/3 weaklings: I figure they gain karma to improve skills, Magic and initiate just like shadowrunners, just at a much slower pace. So Fred the wage mage who graduated from MIT in Magical Studies and has 20 years experience of magical research in the corp is quite likely to have a good Magic score, fairly high skills and an initiation or two under his belt ...

[Chainsaw Samurai]

I would agree with Mordivan that an Aspected Domain should remain in the realm of a highly specialized magic research lab aspected to a specific tradition. As TJ and Halinn said, given that most wage mages will be from various traditions, aspecting a whole corp facility to only one type will likely bone rather than be boon to more of their awakened staff.

Saying that, wage mages won't all be Magic 2/3 weaklings: I figure they gain karma to improve skills, Magic and initiate just like shadowrunners, just at a much slower pace. So Fred the wage mage who graduated from MIT in Magical Studies and has 20 years experience of magical research in the corp is quite likely to have a good Magic score, fairly high skills and an initiation or two under his belt ...

I really don't imagine it is as difficult as you're making it out to be (it certainly wasn't back before the traditions were simplified in previous editions. "Hermetic or Shamanistic?" *STAMP* "NEXT!").

For starters, we can assume that everyone who "graduated from MIT in Magical Studies" has the same tradition. That's what a tradition is: an organization of people dedicated to learning, practicing, and preserving a way of magic. You don't sign in to MIT and say "IMMA DROOID!" they'll tell you "Not anymore you're not," because the school is run by a particular tradition, if you already have a tradition you don't need them. Go learn magic in the woods with the druids if you're a druid (MIT probably has a few different programs of magical study, but thinking you can go there to be taught whatever the hell you want without restriction and emerge as whatever tradition you want is a little asinine).

Much like what can only be described as the emerging "raging corporate hardon" for Technomancers, there used to be and still is the same rabid recruitment for mages and has been for quite a long time. Corporate Wage Slave daddy has a magically aware daughter? The Corp knows, she's already enrolled in their elementary school. They already have a plan for the rest of her life. This plan includes teaching her magic according to the Corps paradigm tradition. That is how communities and their respective traditions work, you'd find a simplified version of the same process among the Native American communities (albeit likely a bit less sinister and coercive, Aztechnology aside).

People who work for Corps generally think they are a good thing. They pay them, they afford them their Huxleyesque lifestyle. If 1% of the population is Awakened, how many people are in a Corp? Now imagine the size of their families as well. You think it isn't going to look good on your quarterly review that you pointed out your kid or brother or wife to the Corp recruiters?

Now think of how few Mages it takes to run magical security for an entire complex. Regardless of any sort of Tradition restrictions, they've got it covered mate.

[Mordinvan]

Given that all cities are a BGC of 1, aspecting a section of it to "favorable" is pretty much a given.

based on what exactly? Certainly not the description of what constitutes a BC 1 on pg 121 in street magic. You must be house ruling your own definition of BC 1 to be anywhere a sentient thought has occurred.

And you only need one geomancer to do that. If you need another foothold somewhere, you hire another mage, get him to learn geomancy off the first guy, and voila.

Repeat ad nauseum.

And then you need all the karma for initiations, and all the karma for the metamagic, and no other metamagics..... and you do realize the ENTIRE SITE has to be reworked to fit with the tradition its being changed to suit.... so good luck redecorating that entire city, because if the WHOLE CITY as you say is BC 1, you have to do the WHOLE CITY, and hope not a single magic using character in the entire city decides they'd like to change the traditions its aspected too, or you're screwed. Since I don't see anything in the geomancy section about doing anything smaller then the entire area with the background count, so good luck with that. Also the section specifically refers to

"mana lines (also known as dragon lines, ley lines, or song lines) and power sites"

pg 56

and power sites as on pg 120-121 are described and examples give, and, "every random street in an entire city" is not on the list of examples.

P.S. Shenanigans.

[Halinn]

I'm still operating on the assumption that corps have mages of differing traditions. Sure, they might try to put on pressure to develop in a certain direction through parents, but children will still be rebellious. That means that not only do they need to sculpt a the entire facility they want to aspect towards a specific tradition, they also have to have a geomancer of that tradition do the whole aspecting. Did you note that one of the examples of what it may require to do to get a place aspected is "constructing a building from scratch" or "altering the immediate landscape" . That seems to be a fairly significant cost. And failing to do so could make it harder to geomance in the future.

[Neraph]

based on what exactly? Certainly not the description of what constitutes a BC 1 on pg 121 in street magic. You must be house ruling your own definition of BC 1 to be anywhere a sentient thought has occurred.


And then you need all the karma for initiations, and all the karma for the metamagic, and no other metamagics..... and you do realize the ENTIRE SITE has to be reworked to fit with the tradition its being changed to suit.... so good luck redecorating that entire city, because if the WHOLE CITY as you say is BC 1, you have to do the WHOLE CITY, and hope not a single magic using character in the entire city decides they'd like to change the traditions its aspected too, or you're screwed. Since I don't see anything in the geomancy section about doing anything smaller then the entire area with the background count, so good luck with that. Also the section specifically refers to

pg 56

and power sites as on pg 120-121 are described and examples give, and, "every random street in an entire city" is not on the list of examples.

P.S. Shenanigans.

Nope.

If you go read Geomancy again, performing religious observances, offering sacrifices, or otherwise "ensuring the site itself observes the geomantic lore of the initiate's tradition," for example, a library of magical tomes for hermetics (or, say, a Magical Lodge, which would already be inside a corporate facility where magic is taking place). Hell, the simple presence of an enchanting station will generate R2 BC, which would be easy to Geomantically aspect to whatever tradition that enchanting station is placed inside the Lodge.

If you're worried about the number of Geomancers: you only need one mage of a specific tradition with Geomancy to lead the ritual (or run the ritual solo). Imagine the ease with which that Geomancer will find his job: "So you're telling me that just because I have this metamagic you'll be paying me to fly to various facilities around the world and Aspect them to my tradition? All expenses, including travel and housing, are paid, and then you're giving me a generous income on top? And you'll move my family also? Let me think for a second... YES!" No hazard pay, no risk - it would be the magical equivalent (or similar to) of a professor giving a lecture.

tl,dr: Any run against any facility that has mages and enchanting is done in Aspected R2 BC.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Nope.

If you go read Geomancy again, performing religious observances, offering sacrifices, or otherwise "ensuring the site itself observes the geomantic lore of the initiate's tradition," for example, a library of magical tomes for hermetics (or, say, a Magical Lodge, which would already be inside a corporate facility where magic is taking place). Hell, the simple presence of an enchanting station will generate R2 BC, which would be easy to Geomantically aspect to whatever tradition that enchanting station is placed inside the Lodge.

If you're worried about the number of Geomancers: you only need one mage of a specific tradition with Geomancy to lead the ritual (or run the ritual solo). Imagine the ease with which that Geomancer will find his job: "So you're telling me that just because I have this metamagic you'll be paying me to fly to various facilities around the world and Aspect them to my tradition? All expenses, including travel and housing, are paid, and then you're giving me a generous income on top? And you'll move my family also? Let me think for a second... YES!" No hazard pay, no risk - it would be the magical equivalent (or similar to) of a professor giving a lecture.

tl,dr: Any run against any facility that has mages and enchanting is done in Aspected R2 BC.

It COULD be that way, but may NOT be. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

@Chainsaw Samurai...

I would be willing to bet that MIT&T does not teach just Hermeticism. I would be willing to bet you can earn degrees in several Traditions there. Hermeticism, Chaos Magic, and Black Magic are probably chief among their curriculum. They probably also have Curriculum in Voodoo, Zoroastrianism and even Wicca as well.

[Draco18s]

based on what exactly? Certainly not the description of what constitutes a BC 1 on pg 121 in street magic. You must be house ruling your own definition of BC 1 to be anywhere a sentient thought has occurred.

Rating 1: These domains include areas
where the emotional impact was significant
but brief or areas that are of minor spiritual
or magical significance. Examples include
the scene of a violent crime or passionate
love affair, a bar frequented regularly by the
Awakened, or a rural church that is important
to its small town residents.

What the hell do you think goes on in a city, anyway?

No violent crime anywhere in the entire city? No passionate love affairs anywhere? No bars regularly visited by awakened?

Rating 2: These domains are generated by
the emotional impact of a great number of
people or by a steady emotional, spiritual or
magical influence over a long period of time.
The sold-out concert of a legendary musician
could qualify, as could a maximum security
prison or enchanter’s workshop.

Constant depressive atmosphere, the daily grind of daily life of a wave slave who lives in a crappy neighborhood, that's been crappy for decades?

[Mordinvan]

Nope.

If you go read Geomancy again, performing religious observances, offering sacrifices, or otherwise "ensuring the site itself observes the geomantic lore of the initiate's tradition," for example, a library of magical tomes for hermetics (or, say, a Magical Lodge, which would already be inside a corporate facility where magic is taking place). Hell, the simple presence of an enchanting station will generate R2 BC, which would be easy to Geomantically aspect to whatever tradition that enchanting station is placed inside the Lodge.

Yes, a ROOM where the enchanting is occuring, not an entire compound, and NOT the whole city.

tl,dr: Any run against any facility that has mages and enchanting is done in Aspected R2 BC.

This again applies only to the area of the facility the enchanting has been occurring at, and not the entire facility. If a whole city is BC1 and you want to aspect that, you're going to need to redecorate the entire city, which I said good luck with.

[Mordinvan]

What the hell do you think goes on in a city, anyway?

No violent crime anywhere in the entire city? No passionate love affairs anywhere? No bars regularly visited by awakened?

Not the entire city no. There will be pockets here and there, but to BC1 the entire city, it would have to, at one point, been coated east to west, north to south, sewers to penthouses in violent crime, and typically they're not, as BC1's fade fairly quickly and the city isn't literally knee deep in blood. All those other things you list do occur, but they by no means cover the entire city. Bars are in bars, not open streets, not my office, etc.

Constant depressive atmosphere, the daily grind of daily life of a wave slave who lives in a crappy neighborhood, that's been crappy for decades?

You got it, NOTHING will be there. All examples given are things that get the heart racing. If soul crushing boredom gets your heart racing, then you're one strange person. As far as what causes BC's of one, it seems to be fair emotional maximums, and thus MOST office buildings will be realtively devoid of them, as work is typically boring as all hell, which isn't an emotional maximum.

[almost normal]

All examples given are things that get the heart racing. If soul crushing boredom gets your heart racing, then you're one strange person.

Thank you for the NPC idea.

[Draco18s]

You got it, NOTHING will be there. All examples given are things that get the heart racing. If soul crushing boredom gets your heart racing, then you're one strange person. As far as what causes BC's of one, it seems to be fair emotional maximums, and thus MOST office buildings will be realtively devoid of them, as work is typically boring as all hell, which isn't an emotional maximum.

If soul crushing boredom gets your heart racing, then you're one strange person.

If soul crushing boredom gets your heart racing

soul crushing boredom

soul crushing

Sounds like background count to me. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

[Mordinvan]

Sounds like background count to me. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

Then you're one strange person. Being bored is in no way implied in any of the examples, and to insert it where it isn't found means your making stuff up, calling it the rules, and backing it up with 'because I said so'.

Shenanigans.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Regardless, it would still not generate a BGC throughout the city. It would be localized.

[VykosDarkSoul]

Then you're one strange person. Being bored is in no way implied in any of the examples, and to insert it where it isn't found means your making stuff up, calling it the rules, and backing it up with 'because I said so'.

Shenanigans.

I would have to agree that it would be a more localized area, however, have you ever spent any significant amount of time at the lower end of a larg corp? There is a severe degree of depression in many, which in turn leads to pensivness, which in turn leads to snappish comments, which in turn then leads to anger and retribution, albiet usually petty. However, the point is that many places, even without direct magical intervention, have a very very charged emotional aura.

[Mordinvan]

I would have to agree that it would be a more localized area, however, have you ever spent any significant amount of time at the lower end of a larg corp? There is a severe degree of depression in many, which in turn leads to pensivness, which in turn leads to snappish comments, which in turn then leads to anger and retribution, albiet usually petty. However, the point is that many places, even without direct magical intervention, have a very very charged emotional aura.

Yes many would. However this would not cover the entire city, and if GM's start coating large areas of cities in such 'environments', I'm going to make magical traditions which focus on being snappy, and short tempered, pretty sure there are mentor spirits for that already.

[VykosDarkSoul]

Yes many would. However this would not cover the entire city, and if GM's start coating large areas of cities in such 'environments', I'm going to make magical traditions which focus on being snappy, and short tempered, pretty sure there are mentor spirits for that already.

Oh definatly agreed, I dont believe it would blanket the whole city, i would say rather that if you took a map of the city, tacked it to a wall, put up fine mesh razor wire about 3 feet in front of it and fired a few random pot shots with a paintball gun, then you would probably have a resonable map (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)


Plus, think how fun it would be

[Draco18s]

My point is, just walking down the street a mage can (or should) expect to encounter background count, at rating 1, very frequently, even if it's just patches, with different "aspects." For a GM to say "yeah, there's BGC here" and coming up with a reason is easy.

And if a corp wants their HQ (or really, any other building) to be emotionally charged in some way, it's trivial to make it happen.