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> 2072 [+4 Months], Multiple Players / GMs - Recruitment Always Open
Aria
post Aug 17 2011, 06:34 AM
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QUOTE (galenbd @ Aug 16 2011, 04:22 PM) *
I didn't realize they were so limited, or I would have done it myself.

Galen

I asked the question in the forum and Neraph posted a link to his thoughts on the subject <<here>>

I suggest that you edit your post a tad - you can either do it yourself or you can retroactively buy a drone with EW autosoft (and possibly adaptability too!) - you should have enough cash for that with your current earnings which I make 12x 2500 nuyen!

Not sure I'll get any IC done today - will try to get some up before the weekend though...then again I think we are waiting for Seth and Alyena to make their presence known, and Alyena has your escape route sorted (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
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Notsoevildm
post Aug 17 2011, 10:05 AM
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Summon F3 Beast spirit: 6d6.hits(5)=1
Spirit resists = 3d6.hits(5)=1 - no services, Snake is not cooperating.
Resist 2S drain = Willpower 5 + Charisma 3 = 8d6.hits(5)=1 - minor headache. Snake is definitely not cooperating!
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galenbd
post Aug 17 2011, 01:31 PM
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I edited my post so Jamie is doing the Electronic Warfare roll. My roll was much better than Yokinko's

5 successes
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Alyena
post Aug 17 2011, 03:20 PM
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Doza will switch targets, from the unarmed drone taking pictures, to the new and heavily armed one that's turning the scenery into scrap metal.
Will start with a short narrow burst, partly to test its dodge.

2 successes invisible castle is not my friend atm.

So shoot it again!

3 successes I am not a happy gun bunny (IMG:style_emoticons/default/frown.gif)
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Seth
post Aug 17 2011, 03:31 PM
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@Xarin
Your case was strong, but I am a mini-maxer extraordinaire (or so my friends tell me) and pixies are a mini-maxers wet dream. They are better at nearly ever character concept I can think of (face, martial artist, melee weapon specialist, gun bunny, spell slinger, spirit wrangler, rigger...) other than "tank" than any other race, and actually they are not bad at "dodge tank". Concealment, uber mental stats, uber physical stats, flight and stealth to die for. Body is unimportant for many character concepts (including rigger).

You are however correct that you have picked a character concept that minimises the benefits of the pixie. I'll reduce the amount of cash you are worth by 10 fold, so you still have to worry about gangers and poor people, but not corporates / most runners / wage slaves. As most of your interactions are via the matrix this shouldn't be too much of an issue. This disadvantage by the way removes any issues I have over Pixies being overpowered, and I will do my best to provide Pixie suitable content in the stories.

@Aria
I feel for your work load!

@Aria/Jotamon
OK I will fall to the floor to hide from the drone. Then I'm moving to Scanning for the drone, followed by some Hacking.

Oh yes read them and weep:
IP 1:
First EW + scan 6 successes, Second is 7 successes. I think the first is good enough to detect the node. Alyena is grumbling over my shoulder as she has just rolled Doza's to hits and Alyena's counterspells. Around 60 die and less than 11 successes....she is accusing me of stealing her luck.

I want to spoof it that the black van is the target, and not us! That sounds like a nice single action.
IP 2 and 3. So I'm again not quite sure how to do this: page 236 of SR4a looks relevant. I think its opposed between my roll and twice the device rating. Glad you are GMing it Aria and not me. Spoof rolls: 5 and 4 successes

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Seth
post Aug 17 2011, 03:51 PM
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@Copperhead/Ember/Demon
Nice posts.
I'll post an IC arriving at the Drunken Drone tomorrow, unless you want to describe going in first. Think Transport Cafe meets Radio Shack/Maplins meets giant junk yard.
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JxJxA
post Aug 17 2011, 04:27 PM
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Thanks, Seth! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) I'm really enjoying this game and all of the writing from you, Aria and Notsoevildm. This particular group of runners has a lot of personality in it, which makes the writing a ton of fun. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)
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Xarin
post Aug 17 2011, 06:00 PM
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QUOTE
You are however correct that you have picked a character concept that minimises the benefits of the pixie. I'll reduce the amount of cash you are worth by 10 fold, so you still have to worry about gangers and poor people, but not corporates / most runners / wage slaves. As most of your interactions are via the matrix this shouldn't be too much of an issue. This disadvantage by the way removes any issues I have over Pixies being overpowered, and I will do my best to provide Pixie suitable content in the stories.


Yeah, that sounds fun at that range. Heck even if the price tag isn't true, the rumor of it could get some desperate street thugs flashing nuyen-signs in thier eyes if they saw a real pixie. Likewise if they see a drone they think they can nab. And low enough to not tempt the otherwise (relatively) upstanding neighbors in Tarislar to mess with thier local mechanic.

I'm putting in some last stat tweaks and working on the background questions at the moment. I kinda got distracted a bit when amazon got the entire Empowered series on my doorstep yesterday. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)
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Aria
post Aug 18 2011, 05:38 PM
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Seth & Galen: Spoof requires a valid access ID which I don't think you have?!?
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galenbd
post Aug 18 2011, 05:45 PM
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QUOTE (Aria @ Aug 18 2011, 12:38 PM) *
Seth & Galen: Spoof requires a valid access ID which I don't think you have?!?


I agree. I need to detect the node, then track it back to source to get access ID. Then I can spoof. I can turn the trace over to Yokinko while I figure out where to run.
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Xarin
post Aug 18 2011, 09:55 PM
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Character sheet for Pixel:
[ Spoiler ]


And SRC 20Qs:
[ Spoiler ]


Public info on Pixel:
unknown age /race /etc. Presumed female based on voice which sports an english-sounding accent with a sort of soft purr under-tone and the odd scottish saying.

Rep as a capable hacker with a knack for controling gizmos

Some rumors may even suggest she's on par with legends like Fastjack, though that's often dismissed as absolute rubbish.

Other rumors place her as 'female' AI.

Not-as-public, but known to Argent:
[ Spoiler ]
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Seth
post Aug 19 2011, 06:57 AM
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@Aria/Jotamon
I've never used spoof before: normally I hack on the fly, so I have to admit that I don't know what I am doing. Sorry to mess up like that.

I thought it was meant to be quick (the description says that this is what you do when you are in hurry), but actually it seems to take forever:
  • Scan for the hidden node
  • Complex action: Capture Wireless Traffic
  • Trace: Computer + Track (10, 1 complex action)
  • Spoof: Complex action

In any normal combat, the fight is over by the time you have done this.

OK so actually I meant I was hacking on the fly!
The die rolls work out the same: 5 and 4 successes. I am going for a user account. This should give me a valid user ID.

My guess is that the time line goes like this
IP1: Scan
IP2: Hacking on the fly. Unless it has a rating 6 firewall thats me in, if not then add 1 IP to the rest. Free action to
IP3: Command to designate a target

I suspect that you need a stealth roll as well. Invisible castle is down, so feel free to roll for me. Pretty much all matrix actions are the same: skill 4/program 6/PuShEd 1/Hot Sim 2 = 13.
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Seth
post Aug 19 2011, 08:15 AM
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@Xarin
Nice background and details. Good thing Form fitting armor fits you!

Now I need to get you in the story.
I'm giving you are free Contact:

Name: Hansai Jones.
[ Spoiler ]


You have just started a job for Hansai and Edgar: "Hack Jonathon Teague". If you can get some of this information into the IC post that would be good
[ Spoiler ]



Can you do a first IC post in which you hear about Edgar's death on the news, linked with the military action at the Jucy Lucy Hotel?

As you are checking you have the details correct, and are wondering what is happening, Hansai will send you a message
[ Spoiler ]
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Aria
post Aug 19 2011, 10:15 AM
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QUOTE (Seth @ Aug 19 2011, 07:57 AM) *
@Aria/Jotamon
I've never used spoof before: normally I hack on the fly, so I have to admit that I don't know what I am doing. Sorry to mess up
In any normal combat, the fight is over by the time you have done this.

OK so actually I meant I was hacking on the fly!
The die rolls work out the same: 5 and 4 successes. I am going for a user account. This should give me a valid user ID.


Except spoof is the only possible action for a slaved drone(and what drones that interest you won't be slaved?).

You don't always need to run a trace, although in this case Galen has that right, because matrix perception on the rigger will give you their ID!

Sorry to be a pain (IMG:style_emoticons/default/frown.gif)
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galenbd
post Aug 19 2011, 11:04 AM
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QUOTE (Seth @ Aug 19 2011, 01:57 AM) *
@Aria/Jotamon
I've never used spoof before: normally I hack on the fly, so I have to admit that I don't know what I am doing. Sorry to mess up like that.

I thought it was meant to be quick (the description says that this is what you do when you are in hurry), but actually it seems to take forever:

In any normal combat, the fight is over by the time you have done this.


That's why I wanted Yokinko to handle this so I could keep involved with the combat. I'll have to upgrade the agent once I get a few spare actions.
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Xarin
post Aug 19 2011, 02:27 PM
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@Seth
Handily, she makes her own armor. so I certainly hope it fits (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Love the contact! I'm heading in to work and will get an IC post together this evening.
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Seth
post Aug 19 2011, 02:56 PM
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QUOTE
Except spoof is the only possible action for a slaved drone(and what drones that interest you won't be slaved?).


Color me confused. You what? Other confused words as I babble...

I'm not doing a rules lawyer thing I am just confused. Can you give me a page reference: I have just reread the SR4a rules and cannot find any reference to this. As far as I know I can always hack a computer. Slaved or not. If I have an account I can do stuff to it. I found a section about "jumped in riggers", but that stops spoofing and hacking (although I suspect an admin account rebooting the drone would work fine).

In all of those cases the time and the die rolls are the same for me as far as I can see, so this is just an education thing


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galenbd
post Aug 19 2011, 05:23 PM
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QUOTE (Seth @ Aug 19 2011, 09:56 AM) *
As far as I know I can always hack a computer. Slaved or not.


I was under the same impression. When Aria told me I couldn't get in, I went, ok, she's the GM, stop arguing. If there's really a way to totally block a hack, I'd like to know about it.
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Aria
post Aug 19 2011, 06:30 PM
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QUOTE (galenbd @ Aug 19 2011, 06:23 PM) *
I was under the same impression. When Aria told me I couldn't get in, I went, ok, she's the GM, stop arguing. If there's really a way to totally block a hack, I'd like to know about it.


Slaving, Unwired p55...but please let me know if I've misinterpreted
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Seth
post Aug 19 2011, 06:56 PM
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It's only an education thing for me, fully happy with however you want to run it. I REALLY don't want to go rule lawyer (A constant failing of mine that I want to avoid in this thread).

As I understand all slaving does it move the system that has to be hacked to a tougher system. So for example the node of the main hacker in the party. But then when you have the main node you have everyone's: so its an "all the eggs in one harder basket plan".

I haven't read, or thought through how the baddies use slaving. So interesting question: do Knight Errant move all their officers commlinks to one corporate super network. I suspect not (in practice I suspect it would be a crazy plan to have all your eggs in one basket).

So in this example I could have hacked the drone (at +2 threshold.) or the the riggers commlink, or if he has a hacker friend, the hackers commlink. (I'd go for the drone out of preference...)
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galenbd
post Aug 19 2011, 08:24 PM
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I guess my understanding of this is that you can't hack the slaved node. You can find the transmission back to the master node. Trace it to it's source. Then try to hack that node.

That actually suggests a worthwhile tactic of daisy-chaining nodes. That would force the hacker to trace each connection before being able to start the hack.
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Seth
post Aug 19 2011, 08:28 PM
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According to the page number that aria quoted you can hack the slaved drone. It's just +2 threshold. Also you can directly hack the master without bothering to track it (you got diverted there directly...the drone routed you straight to the master).

I think I am going to take the rule books to the bath and read them again. I suspect the system is quite simple, I just don't have it yet.

Edit: OK I read it and it is simple. I was wrong about being able to hack the drone directly (need physical access, and it's shooting me!)

Kosher stuff 1: Hack the master. Pretty fast
  • Scan to find the slave node
  • Hack the master straight away (you get routed there)
  • From the master you can spoof the slaves (any of them. Mu ha ha)


Kosher stuff 2: Track / Spoof the master. Takes absolutely ages
  • Scan to find the slave node
  • Track the master
  • Matrix perception the master
  • Spoof


Guessed stuff:
  • Scan to find slave node
  • Since any communication requests are diverted to the master, send any old packet to the slave and follow it to the master (i.e. Matrix Perception? Track but only needing 1 success?)
  • Analyse the master
  • Spoof


I think I am really interested in the RAW answer so I will raise a question in the main forum. For the purposes of the game: Aria tell us what to roll, if we can do it, and how long it takes. I think Galen and I have both indicated happiness with handwavium.
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Aria
post Aug 19 2011, 08:49 PM
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QUOTE (Seth @ Aug 19 2011, 09:28 PM) *
According to the page number that aria quoted you can hack the slaved drone. It's just +2 threshold. Also you can directly hack the master without bothering to track it (you got diverted there directly...the drone routed you straight to the master).

I think I am going to take the rule books to the bath and read them again. I suspect the system is quite simple, I just don't have it yet.

Away from my books but I'm sure the +2 applies to physically hacking the slave...given you can't fly I think you'll find that a bit hard in this instance! It's for things like plugging a cable into a slaved camera for example...

At least that's how I remember it (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)
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Xarin
post Aug 20 2011, 01:13 AM
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A Slave cannot be hacked wirelessly, you have to physically attach to the device and it's still a +2 threshold.

To hack it normally, you need to Scan for the node of the slave and pin that down first.

Attempt to hack the slave node normally and you are automatically re-routed to the master. Incidentally, since the slave node is re-routing the access attempt, it might also be set to notify the master of the attempt if it's smart enough (Pilot / Agent programs with prior instructions to do so). You can, at this time, attempt a Matrix Perception to gain the master's Access Id to start Spoofing. However, if they're running a Stealth program, you'll be opposed by thier Hacking + Stealth (or firewall + stealth for nodes).

In the case of a rigger / hacker, you'll need to get thier persona's Access ID as that's what thier drones are likely slaved to. Meaning Hacking + Stealth opposition on the roll. But you only need 1 net hit.

If you want to go after the master node without letting them know you're coming, you need to intercept the wireless traffic, decrpyt it, and pull the Access ID from the wireless data stream. Not a quick or easy thing, but it's much less likely to be detected (they do still have a chance on a matrix perception check to notice the snooping)

If you can manage to hack directly into the master node, then you can gain access to all the others, yes. It's just usually a much more well-protected node to hack into, complete with likely active enemy spider and probably IC.

Also note that slaved nodes are limited because they use up a Subscription on the Master. Short of a Nexus, most devices can't handle many of those with even top-notch custom jobs still capping around a dozen. Subscriptions also handle remote agents, every node you've got an icon in, and any gear you want to tie into your commlink (like contact lenses for image links, etc).

Track is more for using to track down a non-slaved node.

A Jumped-in rigger supercedes all other command input. So not even Admin accounts can do anything while someone is jumped into the device.

Devices can also be set to only respond to admin-level accounts. Typically only done when just 1 person will be using the device. But it does make hacking it decidedly more difficult.
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Seth
post Aug 20 2011, 08:13 AM
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@Xarin
That was a very helpful summary, thanks. I need to turn that into a flow chartL I think you captured many points there, but there were a lot of "ifs" in it and I am not sure I understand enough to use it. I've kicked off a thread in the main discussion area so we don't pollute this thread with Rules Lawyering (which I also enjoy, but not in game)

There were some interesting observations though:
  • One limit on slaving is the number of active subscriptions you are allowed. So you cannot rule your entire corporations drones into one killer access area. I like that (Game Design hat on). That means of course that while it can be secure it cannot be that secure (you have a lot of drones, and your spiders/IC have to be spread across all of the drones).
  • "Incidentally, since the slave node is re-routing the access attempt, it might also be set to notify the master of the attempt if it's smart enough". I don't think hacking is about trying to log on and spamming passwords, so I don't think this is viable. Hacking is about "aha you are running version X of program Y, if I send a carefully crafted packet it will cause a buffer overflow and I can execute my payload". Password guessing is normally only done after you have downloaded the hashed and salted password file, or when you are worming and going for soft targets. From a Game Design point of view, this what the Hacking On The Fly rules already cover.
  • "Devices can also be set to only respond to admin-level accounts" Only do this if you want gaping holes in your security. Admin accounts are only secure because you don't use them. (Windows has admin accounts and they are not secure largely because everyone uses them). Start using them they become less secure. From a Game Design point of view, you want the different account difficulties. It's nice when real world and game design principles align so well.
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