Using the "No Soaking Roll" option, ...and keeping Body useful Options

[blakkie]

[Fortune]

No limitations of Armor Mods that I can find.

[blakkie]

I couldn't find anything either in a quick 10 minute search. What about encumberance though?

[Fortune]

Doesn't seem to even hint at anything in the way of a penalty for armor modifications. The only things that seem to limit mods are cost and availability, neither of which is truly a factor.

[hahnsoo]

If you are concerned about rolling too many times for each gunshot, consider making ranged combat a Threshold test rather than an opposed test (another "official" house rule on that same page). This keeps the importance of a high Body for damage resistance while dropping the "dodge bullets" Reaction roll. Something like:
Base Threshold of 0 at Short Range, No Cover
Range - Medium +1, Long +2, Extreme +3
Cover - Less than 50% +1, Greater than 50% +2, Full Cover +3

You can add to the threshold by Full Defense, using Dodge + Reaction as usual... the number of hits adds to the threshold, but each attack dodged reduces these Dodge hits by one until your next action. The Combat Sense Ability/Spell adds to this roll instead of the standard Reaction roll vs. Ranged attacks.

Melee combat remains the same, mostly because Melee tends to be an opposed test between the melee skill of the two combatants, and is generally more complicated anyway (dropping 1 roll won't make it any less complicated).

In our games, we have a hybrid system, where one can choose to "dodge" (by engaging in any movement) and make the standard roll or rely on their cover (stay stationary) and use the Threshold system above. So far it has worked fairly well.

[TheNarrator]

Actually, it's the same number of rolls in SR4 as in SR3.

SR3:
-Attacker rolls Combat Skill + Combat Pool.
-Defender rolls Combat Pool to dodge.
-If he doesn't dodge, defender rolls Body + Combat Pool.

SR4:
-Attacker rolls Atribute + Skill.
-Defender rolls Reaction.
-If he doesn't dodge, defender rolls Body + Armor.

It's not even more dice being rolled, when you take into account Combat Pool.

I've got to say, I wouldn't want to play the system originally proposed by GregPogor. Anyone with high Armor would be impervious to harm from any but the most powerful weapons (remember, in SR4 as it stands, you average 1 less DV per 3 armor points) while anyone with lower Armor would be certain to take damage every time they were shot at, period. And the shooter would be staging up the damage, while you couldn't stage it down.

If one wanted less rolls, you could just have players minus (Body + Armor)/3 from the power of all incoming attacks. That would have the same average result as the Damage Resistance Test, but you wouldn't have to roll it. Of course, it takes the luck factor out of things just a smidge, which can be disappointing when the average isn't enough to succeed at something but you're feeling lucky enough you think you could have rolled well. Actually, in SR4, you could game completely diceless by just taking 1/3 of what would have been the dicepool. :D But it'll be a very predetermined game.... no chance to beat the odds.

[hahnsoo]

I don't think it was his proposition. It's a rule that's in the core rulebook, under that one-page list of "official house rules".

[TheNarrator]

Er, right. Sorry. I guess what I should have said is, "The rule that he proposed adopting."

But yeah, lots of the optional rules proposed in the book are interesting, but I don't particularly like that one. Armor is generally going to be a lot more than (Body + Armor)/3, so anyone with armor is going to be a lot harder to damage than they would be under regular SR4 rules, while anyone without will drop pretty fast, even if they're extra tough due to cyber, adept powers, or good stats.

Now, tripling the usefulness of Armor and reducing the usefulness of Body severely might actually fit the tone of someone's game pretty well (especially if they're trying to push the "guns are scary, wear armor" angle), they just need to be aware that it does change the game balance. They might want to up the price of armor (armor in SR is actually way cheaper than in RL... go figure) or find more uses for the Body stat (which doesn't link to many skills).

[Omer Joel]

I am thinking about simply removing the Reaction dodge roll from ranged combat, replacing it with a Threshold to hit, unless the defender uses Full Defence. This will reduce combat to two rolls, which will make things far simpler.

And why won't (Armor+Body)/3 as a reduction from DV suffice? Seems statistically fine, and a modifier could be added to the attack roll if adept powers/attributes other than Body have to be accounted for.

The real issue is with the lack of dodging making ranged combat even more deadly than it originally is. How can this be prevented?

[Kremlin KOA]

[Azralon]

Please keep in mind that eliminating defensive rolls will also eliminate the opportunity for the defender to spend Edge in survival situations.

[Omer Joel]

After re-reading the SR4 combat system, I think I'll use it as-is. The lower skill/attribute ratings of SR4 (in comparison to earlier editions) would simplify things enough, and 3 rolls in total (2 by the defender, 1 by the attacker) should be ok then.

I am also thinking about finding the way to speed up "secondary" (read: expendable) NPC defense - probably by pre-generating hits. A die roller rolling multiple sets of tests would also be handy.

[GregPogor]