Rules Question: Specializations and the Pool Cap Options

[ef31415]

Let's say I have Pistols 6 and Specialization: Semi-auto.

Let's say I also have Smartlink, Enhanced articulation, and Reflex Recorder: Pistols.

I'me firing an Ares IV and agility of 5 (say).

Is the ruling:
1) I have a skill of 6+2 = 8 with semi-autos, so the pool cap is (8/2)=4, so I can use
(Agility) + (Skill) + (4 dice from SL,EA,RR) = 5 + 8 + 4 = 17 dice,
or

2) My pistols skill is 6, and the cap is (6/3)=3, so I can use
(Agility) + (Skill) + (Specialization) + (3 dice from SL,EA,RR) = 5+6+2+3 = 16 dice

?

Thanks,

[Xenith]

As far I know theres no offical call on that yet. Adam might drop in for it but I doubt it. :)

Thats an interesting way of thinking of it... that Specializations count toward the base skill for the cap rather than towards the cap or as a simple modifier like smartguns are. Not entirely sure. It might simply be a GMs call kinda thing, and that Fanpro left it open and unclarrified for this purpose.

[NightRain]

Well as the book is written, the only actual skill modifier that counts to the modified limit cap is specialisations, as it is the only pool modifier written in the format listed in the cap definition. That means, technically by the book, you get 6+2 with semi autos. The two counts towards your maximum limit of 9, but nothing else does. So it's 6+2, + 2 for the smartlink +1 for the reflex recorders +5 for your agility. A total of 16 dice. (Enchanced artic doesn't apply to combat skills, only physical skills)

I think the way the book is /meant/ to read however, is that devices like enhanced articulation, reflex recorders etc that act on and improve specific skills also count towards this limit, whilst more general devices like smartlinks don't. The smartlink doesn't so much improve your skill as let you get more out of your natural skill by providing situational modifiers to help out (in a similar way that tracer rounds or a laser site don't actually make you more skilled)

If my guess as to how it's meant to read is correct, then the final formula would look like this

6 + 2 (skill + spec) + 1 (reflex recorder). These all count towards the maximum modified limit of 9, which you're now at. So even if you could apply the enhanced articulation to combat skills, you couldn't in this instance because you're already at your cap

You then get to add 5 (agility) + 2 (smartlink), for a total of 16 dice

[Faenor]

Now, I'm asking this question completely ignorant of SR4 rules as I do not have a copy of the main book. Lets say that you have your skill for pistols maxed, the relative attribute maxed, and you have all that gives a positive modifier. Now I understand that there's the limit of eighteen dice for the test. But lets also say that due to bonuses you would have a pool of twenty dice (not sure if this is possible) but you have a penalty of -4 dice; for cover, darkness, whatever (I'm also not sure if that's how SR4 modifiers work).

Do you subtract that penalty from the actual pool of twenty dice for an effective pool of sixteen, or from the maximum allowable pool of 18 for a total of fourteen dice?

Essentially, can positive modifiers effectively negate penalties in extraordinary circumstances like that?

[NightRain]

There isn't a limit of 18 dice to the pool. There is a limit to the dice you can get from stats and a limit to the dice you can get from skills, in both cases, this limit is 1.5 the maximum rating of the skill/attribute

This means that for a typical human, the most he can get is 9 dice from his modified skill, 9 dice from his modified stats, for 18 dice total. However, you can still get all sorts of modifiers to this pool based on situation stuff, like tracer rounds, aimed shots, laser sites etc. Those modifiers are not limited to 18 dice

However, to answer your question in any case, the most dice you can get from your stat/skill is typically 18 dice. Even if you had cyberware that could technically take it higher, you still only get to apply the 18 dice, and then you start counting in the modifiers, be the positive or negative. The cap is absolute

[ef31415]

[NightRain]

Well if you want to take that interperatation, then there is /technically/ nothing at all in the book that counts towards the modified skill limit, because the only thing that uses the writing format oultined is specialistions, which aren't in the list you quoted :)

[FrankTrollman]

[Azralon]

[NightRain]

[ef31415]

Right now it's clear to me that the writers used inconsistant language thoughout the rules, and figuring out this skill cap thing is where it really hurts. I don't think slicing and dicing the language is the way to go here.

Is there any way we can get an official ruling on this?

[Eyeless Blond]

How about we just throw away these augmented skill/attribute cap things entirely? It seems more trouble than they're worth, to be honest.

[Xenith]

Agreed.
I don't mind the attribute caps, though. Keeps Adepts from getting... ubber and a half...

It would still be nice to know what they meant for the original rules though. :)

[NightRain]

I think the more realistic hope is to bring them in to line with attribute modifiers. That is, make the modified limit 1.5 times the maximum rating of the skill, and let the modifiers alter the skill directly, rather than simply adding dice

[Azralon]

You'd still have to clearly designate which modifiers are skill modifiers and which are situational (i.e.: pool) modifiers. If you didn't, then things like aiming and superior position would bump into the cap.

Even so, it's the unclear designations that are the problem right now anyway. So basically there'd be no change from what we have now.

[Xenith]

Perhaps they should have just made the limit to the total modification of the original dice pool be double or something (similar but not quite the same as what they have now). Does almost the exact same thing they're looking for with less of a headache.

In fact its probably a little more limiting, since modifiers apparently don't "count". Eh. It give me a headache, but will probably just be errata'd soon enough... I hope.

[Synner]

The limits/caps are only applied to Augmented Attribute or Skill Ratings. Enhancements of any kind that modify the Attribute or Skill alter the Rating (normally in a permanent fashion) rather than the Pool. For the most part these are clearly identified as augmenting the base Att. or Skill Rating in their respective descriptions throughout the book.

In the vast majority of cases, these (Augmented or not) Att. and Skill Ratings are fixed and should not require any calculation in play (barring those select few enhancements/abilities that have trigger conditions), and you just add them together to produce the base Dice Pool.

All other Modifiers come into play as Dice Pool Modifiers (and are detailed as such in their descriptions) - these are situational and are not capped (ie. the Dice Pool has no cap).

A problem did arise regarding Skill / Specializations due to a mistake with the notation used that slipped through to the printed draft. Please refer to my post in the Errata Thread for the correct take straight from the Sprite's (Rob Boyle's) mouth.

[Chandon]

The sooner the FAQ gets posted, the happier I'll be.

[NightRain]

[Rotbart van Dain...]

And since a dice bonus to a skill is what creates an Augmented Skill Rating, this is the only necessity for the cap.

[Synner]

[Rotbart van Dain...]

That depends on how one reads it - since those terms are not capitalized, there is no real use in arguing on base of TTs.

Most dice pool modifiers from implants are referred to as a bonus, and are linked to certain skills, thus being subject to the cap... the list you had updated actually was fairly nice in summing it up.

[Synner]

[Rotbart van Dain...]

In fact, there is no clear line... the variety ends with a 'dice pool bonus'.

On the other hand, there is nothing in the rule that excludes dice pool modifiers to a skill test from it...

[NightRain]