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> Little help please.
hunter5150
post Oct 20 2005, 10:49 PM
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I recieved my copy on the 11th much like alot of others. Let me begin by saying that I am so far very pleased with the changes that have been made. I havent found anything that I dont like or cannot deal with. I do however need some clarrification on a few things.

1- page 151, Full defense, Full Dodge- "A char on full defense may add their Dodge skill to their dice pool when defending against incoming attacks. So . . . ranged attack rolls Reaction + Dodge, whereas . . melee attack could roll Reaction +Dodge + Dodge." Am I missing something here? Dodge Can be used for both types of combat so why the lack in full defense ranged? Wasn't in errata so I'm left with questions.


That was my only rules question. The other things I wanted to know were more of a poll I guess.

2- How do the other GM's out there address the idea of the high percentage of persons who likely now have totally obsolete cyberware. Specifically Cranial Cyberdecks. Just wondering what ya'll do about it.

3- Lastly, One of the most powerful 3rd edition tools I have as a GM is my copy of McMackie's Tables printout. You know the one I'm referring to. Has anyone produced anything like that for 4th yet?
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Slacker
post Oct 20 2005, 11:10 PM
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Normal ranged defense uses Reaction only. Full Defense is the only time you add Dodge to your roll for ranged attacks.
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hunter5150
post Oct 20 2005, 11:13 PM
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Could you give me a page number on the rule about no dodge for ranged. According to skills breakdown dodge can be specialized in ranged and melee combat. Implies to me that dodge is for both.
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Abschalten
post Oct 20 2005, 11:16 PM
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Top of page 141, in the little black box. "Defender rolls: Reaction +/- modifiers" vs. "Defender using Full Dodge roll: Reaction + Dodge +/- modifiers"
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Dread Polack
post Oct 20 2005, 11:21 PM
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1- I think the idea is simply that it's harder to dodge bullets than it is a melee weapon, which makes sense.

To sum up (for my own sake as well as anyone else's), this is what you get to roll as a defender in the opposed test in combat (sequence 3, page 139)

Unaware of the attack:

Nothing! (ouch)

Aware, but not trying particularly hard to get out of the way:

Melee: Reaction + (melee weapon or unarmed combat; I have housruled a -2 penalty to defend against armed attacks while unarmed, unless you have killing hands, or perhaps a home-brewed quality)

Ranged: Reaction

Trying not to get hit (Full Defense):

Melee: Reaction + (Melee weapon or dodge) + Dodge (you add dodge twice if all you're doing is dodging)

Ranged: Reaction + Dodge (and be happy to get to add dice at all! What are you even doing standing out in the open? Be glad you're wearing armor!)

2- Don't have much to say about that, having not been able to play the older editions enough. I guess in the official history between editions, there were a lot of deckers with a lot of extra space in their heads. I'd either replace the cyberwear with other stuff or start from scratch and apply a little history revision.

3- I don't know if I can wait for the 4th edition GM screen, so I may have to make one for myself. I'll post it if I can get enough of it done.

The Dread Polack
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Squinky
post Oct 20 2005, 11:55 PM
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How does gymnastics work into dodging? I've seen it mentioned, but can't find any reference in the book...
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Jaid
post Oct 21 2005, 12:15 AM
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you can choose to do an acrobatic dodge or something like that. think it works like full defense except you add gymnastics instead of dodge skill. something like that, anyways...
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RunnerPaul
post Oct 21 2005, 01:29 AM
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QUOTE (Squinky)
How does gymnastics work into dodging? I've seen it mentioned, but can't find any reference in the book...

p. 151, Subheading "Gymnastics Dodge" under heading "Full Dodge".
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FrankTrollman
post Oct 21 2005, 01:57 AM
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Full Defense is an action that allows you to either:

Add your Dodge skill to ranged and melee defense rolls.
or
Add your Gymnastics to ranged and melee defense rolls.
or
Add your relevant melee combat skill to melee defense rolls only.

This means that Dodge doesn't do much of anything unless it is bigger than your Gymnastics and your melee combat skill. And since Dodge has a significant cost, it isn't worth having for any character who has melee training, and it isn't worth having for most other characters besides.

-Frank
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Veggiesama
post Oct 21 2005, 03:11 AM
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QUOTE (Squinky)
How does gymnastics work into dodging? I've seen it mentioned, but can't find any reference in the book...

QUOTE (FrankTrollman)
Add your Gymnastics to ranged and melee defense rolls.

On p151, it actually reads: "... and may add Gymnastics skill to their dice pool against either ranged or melee attacks."

So Gymnastics doesn't work nearly as well as Dodge or Parry, but it's got other non-combat uses too (jumping distances and reducing falling damage). Unless you plan on never actively dodging ranged attacks, Dodge still has its uses.

QUOTE (Squinky)
3- Lastly, One of the most powerful 3rd edition tools I have as a GM is my copy of McMackie's Tables printout. You know the one I'm referring to. Has anyone produced anything like that for 4th yet?
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hahnsoo
post Oct 21 2005, 03:16 AM
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With the Dodge skill, you can specialize in either Ranged Attacks or Melee Attacks, giving you a small but cheap advantage over Gymnastics. Plus, not every character is going to be an Olympic gymnast (or even a high school or college level gymnast)... the Dodge skill probably reflects a more martial training. Melee skills can be specialized in Parrying, of course.

In terms of sheer cost for defense, the Dodge skill is actually the cheapest option, as it is good for both Melee and Ranged attacks, with the option to specialize. If you don't have many Build Points above and beyond your primary skillset (usually the case for technomancers and Awakened) and you don't plan on investing in a melee skill, Dodge is a good choice. However, I think a lot of folks are more likely to go for a high Melee and high Gymnastics skill, as this is more versatile.
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Squinky
post Oct 21 2005, 03:22 AM
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I like theGymnastics route personally. It has actual use besides just using it to dodge, and it can be bumped with improved ability for only .25 as opposed to .5 for dodge. Also, if you go cyber, you can get a synthacardium rating 3, enhanced articulation, and a reflex recorder for the athletics group, and you will add +5 for gymnastics and some of the athletics group....plus 4 for the rest...for a decent price essence and money wise..

Not taking caps into consideration (messy rules there).

All in all, I don't see why you would take dodge....
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Veggiesama
post Oct 21 2005, 03:35 AM
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A melee skill (or unarmed skill) helps you avoid melee attacks, and only melee attacks. It'll give you more offensive capability (obviously), but limited defensive.

Gymnastics skill lets you hop around for fun and decreases damages you take from falling. Also it's an option for full defense against either melee or ranged attacks (declared with full defense), but not both at the same time. Of course, it can also be taken as a part of the Athletics skill group.

Dodge skill allows for a specialization in melee or ranged, and when used in full defense, it works for both melee and ranged. Even if you melee skill is higher than your dodge skill, dodge is still going to help you out against ranged if you take the full defense option.
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hahnsoo
post Oct 21 2005, 03:43 AM
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QUOTE (Squinky)
All in all, I don't see why you would take dodge....

Hey, if you have a decent melee skill as well as gymnastics, go for the gymnastics route... it's certainly more versatile. But that's two skills, compared to a single Dodge skill (which is slightly more powerful, if only barely)... most characters who don't have the BP to splurge will want to consolidate this to Dodge.

More importantly, you have to take an Action to use Full Defense/Gymnastics. Dodge is used passively (without taking an action) in both melee combat (if you choose) and defending against certain special attacks (like ramming).
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Namergon
post Oct 21 2005, 10:08 AM
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Dodge in Full Defense also requires an action.
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