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> Platelet factory, is there an errata out on this?
6thDragon
post Oct 23 2005, 04:28 AM
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I don't know if there is an errata out on this yet, but this is starting to seem horribly broken. I was very glad to see the trauma damper go with SR4. It was total min-maxing for mages, and I know players that made it standard equipment for their mages and take a geas to offset the magic loss. Now it appears the platelet factory is taking its place. The description in the book says "Any time the user suffers 2 or more points of damage, the damage is instantly reduced by one point." It does not specify the damage must be physical! Sure this isn't quiet as bad as SR3's trauma damper. The mage will still have to take some damage, but with the remaining .8 essence they'll have to burn a hermetic could easily get a couple points of Damage Compensator and Cerebral Booster. That would almost allow said mage to cast fireballs (or other very high drain spells) with impunity.
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FrankTrollman
post Oct 23 2005, 05:13 AM
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In SR4, a Platelet Factory is just 3 extra body dice on average. It only works on real damage and it only works if it won't be enough to prevent you from taking damage. It's nice, even very nice, but nothing like broken. If a platelet factory does anything at all, then by defintion it isn't doing enough to make you not be losing.

-Frank
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NightRain
post Oct 23 2005, 11:37 AM
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Spells cause a drain resistance test, not a damage resistance test. Drain <> damage if you want to rule it that way in your game
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6thDragon
post Oct 23 2005, 02:08 PM
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okay I didn't know there was a deference between drain and damage. That makes sense now. But is there an errata or something for the platelet factory that says it only effects physical damage? I know it SR3, that's how it was. I even played where it only effected wounds that would cause bleeding such as a bullet or a knife wound, but a burn or a fall would not count.
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NightRain
post Oct 23 2005, 03:02 PM
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I think it's meant to affect stun in SR4. Critter regeneration heals stun when it never used to, heal spells heal stun when they never used to, so it wouldn't surprise me if a Platelet factory works on stun as well (minimises bruising?)
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Fortune
post Oct 23 2005, 04:42 PM
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QUOTE (6thDragon)
okay I didn't know there was a deference between drain and damage.

There is no difference. Drain is the cause of the damage you (may) take when casting spells, just as a pistol would be the cause of damage if you were shot. The end result is still considered damage, no matter what the cause or origin.
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FrankTrollman
post Oct 23 2005, 05:06 PM
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There's a big difference. Damage causes a damage resistance test, Drain causes a Drain resistance test, followed by you taking "unresisted damage". It's an open question as to whether a Platelet Factory would stop you from taking unresisted damage, but certainly a GM would be well within their rights to rule "no".

-Frank
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blakkie
post Oct 23 2005, 06:09 PM
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QUOTE (FrankTrollman @ Oct 23 2005, 11:06 AM)
It's an open question as to whether a Platelet Factory would stop you from taking unresisted damage, but certainly a GM would be well within their rights to rule "no".

Sure the GM can "house rule" no. And that is what it would be, a house rule since the Platelet Factory by RAW is not linked to resisting damage.

NOTE: That would also mean that you would apply the Platelet Factory modification to damage AFTER a resistance test, since the damage is not determined and the PC has not actually taken the damage till after the resistance roll.
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snowRaven
post Oct 23 2005, 07:37 PM
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Yeah, I can see no wording anywhere that suggests that the Platelet Factory doesn't reduce damage from drain as well as any other damage the character takes, resisted or not.

Personally, I might houserule it to only apply to physical damage, though...
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Valatar
post Oct 23 2005, 10:48 PM
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On the one hand, the realism side of me wants the platelet factory to only apply to damage that causes bleeding: bullets and blades and the sort. Being shot by a lightning bolt doesn't strike me as something that fast clotting could protect you against.

On the other hand, that's a bit of micro-management for the game that I'd rather skip as a DM, both because it can bog the game down in determining whether the damage of a baseball bat to the gut involves internal bleeding, and because the players would be (understandably) annoyed if they spent a bunch of nuyen on the thing, only to die to non-bleeding damage and have it not do anything at all to help them.
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blakkie
post Oct 23 2005, 10:57 PM
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QUOTE (Valatar)
On the one hand, the realism side of me wants the platelet factory to only apply to damage that causes bleeding: bullets and blades and the sort. Being shot by a lightning bolt doesn't strike me as something that fast clotting could protect you against.

However with that reasoning bruising, which seems to be part of Stun damage, would be helped. *shrug*
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Jaid
post Oct 23 2005, 11:23 PM
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QUOTE (NightRain)
I think it's meant to affect stun in SR4. Critter regeneration heals stun when it never used to, heal spells heal stun when they never used to, so it wouldn't surprise me if a Platelet factory works on stun as well (minimises bruising?)

health spells cannot heal stun damage. otherwise you are correct though.
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NightRain
post Oct 23 2005, 11:39 PM
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QUOTE (Jaid)
health spells cannot heal stun damage. otherwise you are correct though.

That's what I get for parroting someone else rather than looking it up for myself :)
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blakkie
post Oct 24 2005, 01:11 AM
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QUOTE (NightRain)
QUOTE (Jaid @ Oct 24 2005, 09:23 AM)
health spells cannot heal stun damage. otherwise you are correct though.

That's what I get for parroting someone else rather than looking it up for myself :)

Ya, it had come up here before and i took someone's word on that. But in the description of the health spells it says specifically that they still haven't figured it out.

However i believe First Aid can heal Stun.
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Nkari
post Oct 24 2005, 01:12 AM
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Sure, I dont mind if your stupid enough to loose 1 pt magic and keep overcasting your spells to get 1 less pt of dammage, since the whole point is to take atleast 2 pts of DMG .. and get one less _physical_ dmg to get any use for the factory..
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Azralon
post Oct 24 2005, 05:39 AM
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I think Nkari touched upon it well. If someone wants to burn that many BPs (or later karma and money) in order to take 1 box less of Physical, then let them have it.

Kinda like the "Lucky Human" debate: If someone wants to start with an 8 Edge then go ahead. Sure, that much Edge is extremely potent; but look at how much they spent to get it.
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Kremlin KOA
post Oct 24 2005, 07:29 AM
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QUOTE (Valatar)
On the one hand, the realism side of me wants the platelet factory to only apply to damage that causes bleeding: bullets and blades and the sort. Being shot by a lightning bolt doesn't strike me as something that fast clotting could protect you against.


umm so electrical burns don't cause internal bleeding in your games?
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Liper
post Oct 24 2005, 09:10 AM
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the factory only applys to physical damage not stun.

Stun is to represent mental disorientation/stress not any sort of physical damage which the factory deals with.
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NightRain
post Oct 24 2005, 09:34 AM
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QUOTE (Liper)
the factory only applys to physical damage not stun.

Stun is to represent mental disorientation/stress not any sort of physical damage which the factory deals with.

To quote page 152

"Stun damage—bruising, muscle fatigue, and the like—is the kind done by fi sts, kicks, blunt weapons, stun rounds"

I think that makes it fairly clear that it's not just disorentation, and it explicitly includes bruising, which one could argue falls in under the purview of the platelet factory
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Nkari
post Oct 24 2005, 02:30 PM
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But then you read the description of the factory at page 339..

"Platelet factories increases the bodys abilites to handle dammage by accelerating the production of platelet's in the bone marrow, thus lessening the trauma from large wounds and quickly stopping bleeding."


Does the bold part sound like stun dammage to you ?
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blakkie
post Oct 24 2005, 03:09 PM
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QUOTE (Nkari @ Oct 24 2005, 08:30 AM)
But then you read the description of the factory at page 339..

"Platelet factories increases the bodys abilites to handle dammage by accelerating the production of platelet's in the bone marrow, thus lessening the trauma from large wounds and quickly stopping bleeding."


Does the bold part sound like stun dammage to you ?

Sure, a large bruise. :P The first time i went snowboarding i fell backwards and landed square on butt. The next day both cheeks were each had a dark purple blotch the size of a small dinner plate. :(

Frankly 2 boxes Physical isn't something i'd call "large" either, but such is the nature of relative terms.
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wavydavy
post Oct 24 2005, 03:45 PM
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QUOTE (blakkie)

Sure, a large bruise. :P The first time i went snowboarding i fell backwards and landed square on butt.  The next day both cheeks were each had a dark purple blotch the size of a small dinner plate. :(


The first time? So you've never fallen since! :)

QUOTE (blakkie)

Frankly 2 boxes Physical isn't something i'd call "large" either, but such is the nature of relative terms.


Hmm, I see a bruise as being physical damage anyway. It certainly doesn't heal in hours, anyway.
Maybe, roughly, 1-2 boxes being light bruising, 3-4 heavy bruising/torn muscle, 5-6 shallow cut, 7-8 deepcut/broken limb 9-10 multiple wounds

Stun damage I see as being shock and brain shaking headblows and mental/psycological damage.

But the the whole armour converting damage to stun I guess implies the opposite.
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blakkie
post Oct 24 2005, 03:54 PM
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QUOTE (wavydavy)
QUOTE (blakkie)

Sure, a large bruise. :P The first time i went snowboarding i fell backwards and landed square on butt.  The next day both cheeks were each had a dark purple blotch the size of a small dinner plate. :(


The first time? So you've never fallen since! :)

Not snowboarding....i haven't gone since. ;) I actually haven't even managed to make it out skiing much since then. The rest of my life keeps getting in the way. Like kids upon kids. Though i suppose before too long i'll be back out skiing, but at first on much tamer slopes with the boys. Not sure about the snowboarding thing though, i don't smoke enough pot for that. :wobble:
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NightRain
post Oct 24 2005, 04:10 PM
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QUOTE (Nkari)
But then you read the description of the factory at page 339..

"Platelet factories increases the bodys abilites to handle dammage by accelerating the production of platelet's in the bone marrow, thus lessening the trauma from large wounds and quickly stopping bleeding."


Does the bold part sound like stun dammage to you ?

Absolutely. If I get hit with something that is doing stun damage but manages to fill in 7 or 8 boxes of damage, you can be damned sure it will be a large painful wound, stun or not
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Azralon
post Oct 24 2005, 06:31 PM
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Real injuries possess elements of both Stun and Physical damage as Shadowrun defines them. Punch me in the face and you could split my lip, drawing blood. Hack at me with a broadsword and you'll leave bruising around the lacerations.

Shadowrun arbitrarily separates the two damage types so it won't take as long to recover from a right hook as it would a knife stab. It also lets people fall unconscious without also having to be on death's door.

For more realism, each weapon would have two damage codes: One for how much Stun it does and one for how much Physical it does. At some point you have to decide to reduce the "realism-enhancing paperwork" so it won't get in the way of your fun.

So Platelet Factory helps against Physical and not Stun. That's just the way it works.
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